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I see you a lot...But I don't hear you


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I see you a lot...But I don't hear you...

Maybe this should be in my blog rather than a post...

I see a lot of you reading and lurking in the shadows but I never hear from you. I see a lot of major companies and some familiar names come by and read. After numerous conversations I've had with manufacturer's and sign shop owners the same point continues to come up. Why is a vast majority of the Electric Sign People so "mum" and "Tight Lipped". Is it the of fear of competition? Afraid the trade secrets will get out? I hate to ruin it for everyone if those are the fears, but these factors have no merit in open discussion and it will come back to bite us as a whole.

In fact I see the a "Death in the industry" if this remains. No offense, too many old guy (mentality) standing around with folded arms. We desperatly need new blood, "25-35" as one put it. The new age is here, cyber space, and here we are.

No other section of the sign trade is so heavily regulated than those who fabricate & Install electric signs. The Political junk and bureaucratic BS can be so thick at times you need some big thick boots to walk thru it. I don't know if they really realize how much it can hurt us. 90% of the sign rags are adverts, 90% of associations boards genuinely want to help. but it is the minority who hold the power and they seem to have their selfish agendas in place and in clique, this stance actually keeps the others in line. If one were to speak out against the grain, they are nicely patted on the back, handed their hat and shown the door.

:getOUT:

Keeping with associations for a while longer, they seem to follow the money. If you belong to an association and you come up with a nice product and look for help from the association to help promote it for the good of the industry, they tell you you need to give it up to them, sell your rights away, so they can patent it, package it, market it off as their own. If you decline, you get the cold shoulder and no help comes to you.

I recently went to some seminars for energy requirements and upcoming regulations to be imposed on us and I'm shocked to sit with fellow sign people who sit like drones, nodding their heads and asking how to better comply rather than already having the knowledge and not asking why "they" are making ill-informed decisions and proceeding to shovel this BS down our throats and to better educate the powers "that be" about our industry. After all we are the ones fabricating and putting it up, who knows better about it than we do? I'm shocked to learn how so many are so ill informed. I see my fellow industry men and women just lining up behind who ever is pouring the "Kool-Aid". Our officials are not educated enough and they make decisions based on fear and fantasy by companies or individuals who have never fabricated or installed a sign or lighting.

In going to a seminar and to hear an energy company tell me they want my input, for me to better help them create policy was a mind numbing experience to say the least. I think I raised questions about their misinformation about four times and almost every time, all I got in return was "moving right along". or "next slide" Why am I there? To stare back at blank faces of other attendees in silence is even worse, it's disheartening. I get, they're their to learn, but it's not the type to follow. When I start hearing the energy company speaker wanting to put remote controls in window neon signs for their "Demand Response," so they can shut them off in case of an energy crisis, I had to laugh out loud, I at first thought it was a joke. But guess what? Their demos and show cases they study from to portray signs in real time, is nothing a sign maker would create, so their science is junk science.

This is all we have, each other. To spread information, have open discussion and better educate ourselves about the industry. Because if we don't, we will GET rolled over by everyone who does not know our industry and those who want to decide what we should be doing and and how we should be doing it.

I love posting on here and I love visiting fellow sign shops and letting them know what's new, or a better way of doing something, and this is my close competition. But the electric sign industry is my passion, the better we voice ourselves and the more we communicate the harder it will be for those who have no business in our business, to change our business. They may have the lock, the stock, but so as long as we communicate, they will never have the barrel!

I use to depend on information from my suppliers and articles I read in mags, but I always put more weight on fellow sign makers who have and can speak from experience. I can't tell you how far in the dark I was once before reading and participating here.

Now don't get me wrong I may come off a little radical here from this post and possibly sound like a conspiracy freak, but I'll all for capitalism and making an honest buck, honestly

I want to thank those who have started posts, replied to posts that have helped better educate myself and others. Because I know I'm making better signs now than before this site existed........and you truly cannot put a price on that.

-Standing in the light, looking back at you in the dark tunnel

-Erik

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • !llumenati

Well-----------I'm past the 25-35 age group, but I definitely agree. It's been this way forever, too many secrets, that aren't really secrets, too much back stabbing, and way, way too much incompetency that has allowed our trade to diminish in quality. I thinks its called a "me, me, me" attitude. Alot of it starts from society itself.

As you speak of the seminar you went to - my time is coming up with the same attitudes when I go to Orlando for the mercury seminar. Isa is putting it on, as a johnny-come-lately, actually stating that mercury recycling didn't become an issue until the ban went into place in Vermont. Well, I ask, where in the hell were they, and all the other sign companies out in that area?? Sitting in the dark with their led flashlights?? Instead, now there's a seminar about recycling ------- and it'll be held, and pass by, without any answers that are feasible. Why, you might ask??? Because sign companies don't have a clue, and really don't give a shit about any recycling efforts, or their effect on our kids IF they don't give a shit. Why? Because the recycling organization doesn't have a clue. When they say that neon tubes are "different" than fluorescent tubes, when they say that fluorescent tubes ONLY have mercury vapor, when they say that the glass is SO totally different between the two - well, they don't have a clue. Then, we get to tie in the politicians who really don't have a clue. Kinda like Calif passing laws about light usage --------wrong!!

Sharing of information, and ideas on this board is awesome. I also not many, many companies that come on, read a bit -------- and ignore anything where they might contribute. What a shame ------------

gn

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Very well put Eric. Agreed 100%

Title 24 was a law that was affecting all of us in California. I did something odd and decided to start visiting the guy that wrote the law on a frequent and regular basis and found that your are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT - he incorporated changes into the next version of the law that came from items we raised to his attention.

I introduced Jim Richards from UL, the one who does the Sign Accessories Manual, to the guy from California Energy Commission. I will tell you that sharing information on all these different levels made the future iterations of the law make a bit more sense and opened it up to other technologies.

I agree with you about people lurking in the shadows and logging on anonymously and never posting - it is not a very straightforward way of conducting yourself in an open forum of thoughts, ideas, and experiences.

Tomorrow is the Democratic Convention for Nevada in Las Vegas - my fiancee is a democratic delegate for Obama - I think that those open events would be pretty odd if people just sat in the shadows and didnt stand up and speak their peace.

Eric - you might post a little video or tutorial on how to post - I know some of the people have asked me how to do it. Lets educate them so they have no reason not to post. And...thank you for writing this...I like Gary am now beyond your age range but have believed through my entire career that it is not new blood in terms of age but new blood in how progressive and forward people are...

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  • !llumenati

At the San Diego show the energy commission did not even come by the booth to see the comparison. It was on for 50+ hours straight with the meters and the neon was more efficent and 3X brighter (we all know that by now).

I asked some ISA guys why they did not come by and see. They just smiled and said they were at the show. Guess they do not want to piss off the GE's or they have already made up thier minds although the testing says differnt.

Erik, been on the road and just got in, 2 days home since the show, just enough time to get a new phone and out again. I will PM you this weekend.

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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At the San Diego show the energy commission did not even come by the booth to see the comparison

I asked some ISA guys why they did not come by and see. They just smiled and said they were at the show. Guess they do not want to piss off the GE's or they have already made up thier minds although the testing says differnt.

Now why, dos this not surprise me? When we were in a small debate in the seminar, one of the things I did was invite them to your booth which has calculations of brightness and power consumption in real time. Guess what the reaction was?

Sean glad you're home for a little bit, was nice to see you again.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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At the San Diego show the energy commission did not even come by the booth to see the comparison. It was on for 50+ hours straight with the meters and the neon was more efficent and 3X brighter (we all know that by now).

I asked some ISA guys why they did not come by and see. They just smiled and said they were at the show. Guess they do not want to piss off the GE's or they have already made up thier minds although the testing says differnt.

Erik, been on the road and just got in, 2 days home since the show, just enough time to get a new phone and out again. I will PM you this weekend.

Sean,

I was SAD when I did not get to see you, but I did hear your wonderful laugh while I was on the phone with Erik while the 2 of you ate lunch without me......Hope to see you soon......

 

 

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I see you a lot...But I don't hear you...

Maybe this should be in my blog rather than a post...

I see a lot of you reading and lurking in the shadows but I never hear from you. I see a lot of major companies and some familiar names come by and read. After numerous conversations I've had with manufacturer's and sign shop owners the same point continues to come up. Why is a vast majority of the Electric Sign People so "mum" and "Tight Lipped". Is it the of fear of competition? Afraid the trade secrets will get out? I hate to ruin it for everyone if those are the fears, but these factors have no merit in open discussion and it will come back to bite us as a whole.

In fact I see the a "Death in the industry" if this remains. No offense, too many old guy (mentality) standing around with folded arms. We desperatly need new blood, "25-35" as one put it. The new age is here, cyber space, and here we are.

No other section of the sign trade is so heavily regulated than those who fabricate & Install electric signs. The Political junk and bureaucratic BS can be so thick at times you need some big thick boots to walk thru it. I don't know if they really realize how much it can hurt us. 90% of the sign rags are adverts, 90% of associations boards genuinely want to help. but it is the minority who hold the power and they seem to have their selfish agendas in place and in clique, this stance actually keeps the others in line. If one were to speak out against the grain, they are nicely patted on the back, handed their hat and shown the door.

:getOUT:

Keeping with associations for a while longer, they seem to follow the money. If you belong to an association and you come up with a nice product and look for help from the association to help promote it for the good of the industry, they tell you you need to give it up to them, sell your rights away, so they can patent it, package it, market it off as their own. If you decline, you get the cold shoulder and no help comes to you.

I recently went to some seminars for energy requirements and upcoming regulations to be imposed on us and I'm shocked to sit with fellow sign people who sit like drones, nodding their heads and asking how to better comply rather than already having the knowledge and not asking why "they" are making ill-informed decisions and proceeding to shovel this BS down our throats and to better educate the powers "that be" about our industry. After all we are the ones fabricating and putting it up, who knows better about it than we do? I'm shocked to learn how so many are so ill informed. I see my fellow industry men and women just lining up behind who ever is pouring the "Kool-Aid". Our officials are not educated enough and they make decisions based on fear and fantasy by companies or individuals who have never fabricated or installed a sign or lighting.

In going to a seminar and to hear an energy company tell me they want my input, for me to better help them create policy was a mind numbing experience to say the least. I think I raised questions about their misinformation about four times and almost every time, all I got in return was "moving right along". or "next slide" Why am I there? To stare back at blank faces of other attendees in silence is even worse, it's disheartening. I get, they're their to learn, but it's not the type to follow. When I start hearing the energy company speaker wanting to put remote controls in window neon signs for their "Demand Response," so they can shut them off in case of an energy crisis, I had to laugh out loud, I at first thought it was a joke. But guess what? Their demos and show cases they study from to portray signs in real time, is nothing a sign maker would create, so their science is junk science.

This is all we have, each other. To spread information, have open discussion and better educate ourselves about the industry. Because if we don't, we will GET rolled over by everyone who does not know our industry and those who want to decide what we should be doing and and how we should be doing it.

I love posting on here and I love visiting fellow sign shops and letting them know what's new, or a better way of doing something, and this is my close competition. But the electric sign industry is my passion, the better we voice ourselves and the more we communicate the harder it will be for those who have no business in our business, to change our business. They may have the lock, the stock, but so as long as we communicate, they will never have the barrel!

I use to depend on information from my suppliers and articles I read in mags, but I always put more weight on fellow sign makers who have and can speak from experience. I can't tell you how far in the dark I was once before reading and participating here.

Now don't get me wrong I may come off a little radical here from this post and possibly sound like a conspiracy freak, but I'll all for capitalism and making an honest buck, honestly

I want to thank those who have started posts, replied to posts that have helped better educate myself and others. Because I know I'm making better signs now than before this site existed........and you truly cannot put a price on that.

-Standing in the light, looking back at you in the dark tunnel

-Erik

Very nicely said......it's about time you shared this......I agree 100%

 

 

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I can't comment on the bureaucratics of the industry, or on the "association" (which I didn't know existed, sounds elitist, don't see a reason to ever join..)

But as for new blood entering the lighted sign market, your pretty accurate, I've been on other message boards, and whenever I try to post a question about anything lighted, I get that same arms folded mentality - instead of help, I get responses that try to convince me I shouldn't be in this market.. Haven’t enough experience. I have seen the same thing happen to other posters as well, which is why I appreciate this board so much. I think some of the older sign guys are reluctant to help because they are intimidated by this younger generation of the sign industry. Possibly it has something to do with the advent of the digital market (wide format printing seems to be easily embraced by the younger generations of the industry which tend to be more familiar with computers) which the older guys are a bit more reluctant to get in to (wraps and such). Of course I'm not trying to generalize here -

I also see this push towards LED as a way to grab some of the less informed market who are just getting into lighted signs...I could be wrong though.

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I can't comment on the bureaucratics of the industry, or on the "association" (which I didn't know existed, sounds elitist, don't see a reason to ever join..)

But as for new blood entering the lighted sign market, your pretty accurate, I've been on other message boards, and whenever I try to post a question about anything lighted, I get that same arms folded mentality - instead of help, I get responses that try to convince me I shouldn't be in this market.. Haven’t enough experience. I have seen the same thing happen to other posters as well, which is why I appreciate this board so much. I think some of the older sign guys are reluctant to help because they are intimidated by this younger generation of the sign industry. Possibly it has something to do with the advent of the digital market (wide format printing seems to be easily embraced by the younger generations of the industry which tend to be more familiar with computers) which the older guys are a bit more reluctant to get in to (wraps and such). Of course I'm not trying to generalize here -

I also see this push towards LED as a way to grab some of the less informed market who are just getting into lighted signs...I could be wrong though.

You are absolutely right. People using age as an experience factor over you is pretty pathetic. They are much older but do they know how to do and use things that you do today (iPOD, video games, computing tools, etc)?

We are going to post a video that will just piss off the old timers as it will show that you can take the LEDs out of the shipping container, populate a 24" channel letter, close the letter, and connect it to power in less than 5 minutes. And what is more important is that the cost of materials to light the 24" letter X is only $35.00 in LEDs and only $11.50 in power supply cost ($34 60 Watt power supply - letter is 18 Watts or 1/3rd the price) - total letter is $46.50 + 5 minutes of any labor.

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I may need some help with this but if I do a neon letter of 2', single stroke and looking at a pattern right in front of me that is 5' of glass. On a 15 30 transformer this 2 foot letter would be 10% or 9.5$ of power supply plus glass cost, 95$ for the transformer. I can power up about 8-10 of these units off the same transformer. Glass cost with labor hmmmm, 6$ each? I got a figure of about 3watts a foot so total 15watts per letter.

Total 16$ This is my best guess estimate of course.

some of our signs that we ship out for others to install, we do so glass already in with gel coated tube supports, greenfield-- gto straps ready for splice boxes. So these to can go up pretty fast.

Not to get into a debate but after doing both led and neon there is not a whole lot of time difference.

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I can't comment on the bureaucratics of the industry, or on the "association" (which I didn't know existed, sounds elitist, don't see a reason to ever join..)

But as for new blood entering the lighted sign market, your pretty accurate, I've been on other message boards, and whenever I try to post a question about anything lighted, I get that same arms folded mentality - instead of help, I get responses that try to convince me I shouldn't be in this market.. Haven’t enough experience. I have seen the same thing happen to other posters as well, which is why I appreciate this board so much. I think some of the older sign guys are reluctant to help because they are intimidated by this younger generation of the sign industry. Possibly it has something to do with the advent of the digital market (wide format printing seems to be easily embraced by the younger generations of the industry which tend to be more familiar with computers) which the older guys are a bit more reluctant to get in to (wraps and such). Of course I'm not trying to generalize here -

I also see this push towards LED as a way to grab some of the less informed market who are just getting into lighted signs...I could be wrong though.

Signstop, like you my eyes were not open to the association politics either until a little over two years ago. I assumed we were all on the same page and everything was in harmony. It can't be further form the truth. Even in trade mags, I wonder what the politics is like their with their writers.

but lmfao off about the sign painters and vinyl guys that hate the printers. I do understand, "it's not art because all you have to do is push "print"", err, rip. I do disagree with them. You have to be artistic either way you go. My hands won't always do what my mind wants and visa versa. Everyone has their own talent and how ever they choose to exploit that is paramount.

Yes the LED market does target the inexperienced and under qualified in a, "You too can do this" with confetti falling from the sky and balloons rising up into the air from behind the LED rep. Wrong, yes you can peel and stick, but you have to know codes, you have to know laws & regs and material. You do need a certain leverl of initial experience unless you have a huge pocket for a learning curve and learn as you go.

I may need some help with this but if I do a neon letter of 2', single stroke and looking at a pattern right in front of me that is 5' of glass. On a 15 30 transformer this 2 foot letter would be 10% or 9.5$ of power supply plus glass cost, 95$ for the transformer. I can power up about 8-10 of these units off the same transformer. Glass cost with labor hmmmm, 6$ each? I got a figure of about 3watts a foot so total 15watts per letter.

Total 16$ This is my best guess estimate of course.

some of our signs that we ship out for others to install, we do so glass already in with gel coated tube supports, greenfield-- gto straps ready for splice boxes. So these to can go up pretty fast.

Not to get into a debate but after doing both led and neon there is not a whole lot of time difference.

JR, this can vary in a couple of ways and I'm sure others will chime in. One cost factor I see is, are you doing your own glass or buying wholesale. Wholesale cost for a 2' unit is about $25-$30 (Merc), $20-$25 (Clear) each for glass alone here in socal.

Debate? No, debate is good, as long as it's on a civil level. How else are we supposed to learn as a whole?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • !llumenati
I can't comment on the bureaucratics of the industry, or on the "association" (which I didn't know existed, sounds elitist, don't see a reason to ever join..)

But as for new blood entering the lighted sign market, you're pretty accurate, I've been on other message boards, and whenever I try to post a question about anything lighted, I get that same arms folded mentality - instead of help, I get responses that try to convince me I shouldn't be in this market.. Haven’t enough experience. I have seen the same thing happen to other posters as well, which is why I appreciate this board so much. I think some of the older sign guys are reluctant to help because they are intimidated by this younger generation of the sign industry. Possibly it has something to do with the advent of the digital market (wide format printing seems to be easily embraced by the younger generations of the industry which tend to be more familiar with computers) which the older guys are a bit more reluctant to get in to (wraps and such). Of course I'm not trying to generalize here -

I also see this push towards LED as a way to grab some of the less informed market who are just getting into lighted signs...I could be wrong though.

Oh boy---------old sign guys intimidated by young pups??? I don't know about that - and that really isn't important. Consider outside of the sign business - any trade or skill. And you're good at it, you treat your craft well, you're well paid because of that skill, and some knucklyhead, regardless of age, decides he can do it faster, cheaper, cheaply made, etc, etc, --------- but I need to ask you how to do it first. How do you think that goes over??? Again, its not just this industry ----- look at the majority of young kids today. They want to make great wages --- but you mean, they have to work?? Lordy. And get to work on time. And do their work the way they are supposed to??? Damn, its a cold, cruel world. So, yes, sometimes, many times, us old farts shy away from answering questions. A - I don't know someone on the web. B- I haven't a clue as to whether he's going to kill himself following my advice, and C - most of the tmes the person asking the question doesn't care if the answer they get is a qualified answer - or just the unknown somebody giving them the answer they want to hear. When folks relate to the advent of vinyl --- yes, it cut the heart out of a very disciplined bunch of artists -------- and in doing so, it opened the refrigerator door for anyone that had $8,000 to invest in a vinyl cutter and now they are a "signman". And guess what ---- they all want to know how to do it. So, yes cynicism plays a major role. And now its led's. Anyone, literally, can make, build, install, and sell to some poor sucker a sign. Is there a place for them?? Yes/no, depending on how and when they get to the point where they hold up.

As to the digital market - doesn't matter if its digital print, or led's or whatever. Sure there are some taht denounce the b.s. that marketers use to sell their crap. But,, yes there are some good stuff out there. Personally, I had one of the first vinyl machines in Phoenix --- and I didn't even do vinyl. We also owned the first Linde cac-cam machine that did routing and plasma cutting that was west of the Mississippi. So, its not like we're against new stuff----its just taht we're old enough to question the validity of some stuff i.e. led's. Lots of new guys, they love led's. Doesn't matter the brand, or their rquality --- but it lites up the sign, and they can sell it cheap because they don't have to pay a bender a wage - just hire $5 hr guys to pull stickies off the back.

Take a good look in the archives in this site --- you'll see pics of shit installs that were done by "new" guys that called themselves sign people. Look at some of the questions that are raised, and tis very evident that they don't know, don't care to know, and they know that they don't know and don't care. I'm sure that some on the board remember the countless questions and suggestions on a particular job thru concrete walls, running ground inside of sealtight, twisting it into a roll to squeeze into a raceway, a totally bastard install ----and he went and did it anyway. ONly problem was ---------- he invited his customer to check out this website and found that his installer didn't have a clue. And then they called the city inspector, and UL --- and the proverbial shit hit the fan.

But ------- some of us old guys try in our very limited experience to lend a hand. But, as I tell everyone ---- when you ask a question on the internet ------- you haven't a clue who the "other" guy is that's responding. Some on this board disguise themselves behind "disguises" if you will. Others ------- openly state who they are, and its pretty darn easy to find out if they really know their ass from a hole in the ground.

gn

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  • !llumenati
I may need some help with this but if I do a neon letter of 2', single stroke and looking at a pattern right in front of me that is 5' of glass. On a 15 30 transformer this 2 foot letter would be 10% or 9.5$ of power supply plus glass cost, 95$ for the transformer. I can power up about 8-10 of these units off the same transformer. Glass cost with labor hmmmm, 6$ each? I got a figure of about 3watts a foot so total 15watts per letter.

Total 16$ This is my best guess estimate of course.

some of our signs that we ship out for others to install, we do so glass already in with gel coated tube supports, greenfield-- gto straps ready for splice boxes. So these to can go up pretty fast.

Not to get into a debate but after doing both led and neon there is not a whole lot of time difference.

Jr-----you stated when you joined you are new??? I got lost on the $ signs that were in your post. I couldn't tell if it was a typo, or a computer issue. But, glass cost with labor --- $6 ??????? Damn cheap labor. 'And where did you arrive with 3 watts a foot?? And don't try to compare watts used in neon with the watt figures that are bandied about by LED folks. Different stripes.

gn

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You are absolutely right. People using age as an experience factor over you is pretty pathetic. They are much older but do they know how to do and use things that you do today (iPOD, video games, computing tools, etc)?

We are going to post a video that will just piss off the old timers as it will show that you can take the LEDs out of the shipping container, populate a 24" channel letter, close the letter, and connect it to power in less than 5 minutes. And what is more important is that the cost of materials to light the 24" letter X is only $35.00 in LEDs and only $11.50 in power supply cost ($34 60 Watt power supply - letter is 18 Watts or 1/3rd the price) - total letter is $46.50 + 5 minutes of any labor.

Manuel - I'm disappointed. Piss of old timers because letters can be made cheaper, or faster. What pisses me and other old timers off is because the new guys SELL those products and give their shit away.\

And do you really believe that age doesn't also bring experiences that can't be duplicated by someone that's 18 years old?? Assuming you're right --------- you'd back down what you know, what you can bring to the table because of your 30 years in led's etc to an 20 year old that managed to graduate from college, and is going to turn the industry on its heels with a brand new, undiscovered led that hasn't even been tested. Sounds like some of the doctors we have practicing. I take you on my team anyday --------. I can hire grunt labor ----- I can't find the experience that means shit. You know where I work, and we've discussed that very thing. Lots of talented people ---------------but expereince in the business????

And, please, don't anyone get me wrong. I'm all in favor of young people wanting to come in and LEARN the industry. But the key is to LEARN the business and not just rape it.

gn

gn

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You'll have to excuse me. I am new and as I'm doing this I'm getting tid bits of info from my fellow co-workers because I'd like to know what the break down is for one 2 foot letter on neon as well. I work in a shop where verbal communication is hard but things get done here. I want to learn more but, the communication barrier is there again. Hense why I'm here.

I asked a few who weren't too busy and I was trying to average it out. I'm sure my math and configuration is off that's why I was asking for help. I figured our bender here, who I think makes about 18-25 per hour. He says he can bend about 2-5 letters an hour depending on what kind of letter. I THINK With our setup he says we can process about 10-20 letters, depending on who is here, and this can change on the type of glass. So my 6$ figure was based on dividing the quantity by hourly pay, I did not really account for cost of glass and gas. I can't imagine it's too much, but then again i don't do the purchasing here.

Am I off? I got the figures about watts per foot from this site that has the chart. I measured out one of the neon patterns that was 15mm snow white.

What do you think this figure would be per letter?

Mike

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  • !llumenati
You'll have to excuse me. I am new and as I'm doing this I'm getting tid bits of info from my fellow co-workers because I'd like to know what the break down is for one 2 foot letter on neon as well. I work in a shop where verbal communication is hard but things get done here. I want to learn more but, the communication barrier is there again. Hense why I'm here.

I asked a few who weren't too busy and I was trying to average it out. I'm sure my math and configuration is off that's why I was asking for help. I figured our bender here, who I think makes about 18-25 per hour. He says he can bend about 2-5 letters an hour depending on what kind of letter. I THINK With our setup he says we can process about 10-20 letters, depending on who is here, and this can change on the type of glass. So my 6$ figure was based on dividing the quantity by hourly pay, I did not really account for cost of glass and gas. I can't imagine it's too much, but then again i don't do the purchasing here.

Am I off? I got the figures about watts per foot from this site that has the chart. I measured out one of the neon patterns that was 15mm snow white.

What do you think this figure would be per letter?

Mike

Tidbits of info ??? The problem that I have is I'm not sure what you're trying to find out. Yes, a chart on this site shows that 15mil argon/9torr of gas uses about 3 watts per foot on a 15/30ma tranny. Not sure what you were using that number for? To compare to Manuel talking about LED's?? And why a 2' letter ---- meaning a 24" letter that has a neon tube in it, or a 2 foot piece of neon?

Don't ask how many letters in an hour ------- ask him how many feet in an hour. I presume that there are more than one bender, and that someone else pumps and bombards??? You say they can process about 10-20 letters??? Is that in a day???? An hour?? Bending and pumping, or what?? And I don't understand, still, what the $6 figure is SUPPOSED to represent. And again, please explain what you're trying to figure out --------- electricty costs of neon, how much a tube bender can make, what he's worth, why you want to get better, what?

gn

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:mebeer:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :fnd (9):

You guys are killing me!

Gary and his WHAT???? makes me think of sam.

sam20kinison.jpg

I think what he's trying to figure out is, like Manuel, the unit cost per letter, by breaking down the time on an hourly basis. Maybe 6 bucks is the labor fraction of one unit?

I talked to my bender and he says he can do about 150ft. or so an hour, or was it a day, damn my short term memory. When it came to bending the glass channel letters single stroke he said on average for one of his guys 2-4 per hour. Then pumping and bombarding 10-12 per hour, more if the merc trap was not used. I'm not a bender it's over my head. All I know is I probably couldn't do it if my life depended on it. I think where I went wrong was starting out, and learning to bend with 11 or 10 mm glass. I should have started with a larger diameter, as someone once stated here on this board.

Maybe I should go back to UCSD and try anew :P Or bug my bender to scoot over!

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • !llumenati

That's why I hate email -------- its tough to fully explain stuff, and see that twinkle in one's eye!!

But your response is what my question is. If he is trying to compare the "cost" of neon, and incorporate that into an example like Manuel ---- its apples to oranges. Manuel had the cost of the led as $3.50 ???? Period --- he didn't break down the time, the little diodes, etc to get the cost. It was "what can I buy this product for". So, with neon ---------- compare the same thing. Take the cheapest ass wholesaler in town that wants to give his stuff away --- and if he charges $12 for a 16" unit ------- THAT is your cost. He took the price of a power supply, and divided it by the number of units. So, if you have a 16" unit, and assuming single stroke, and assuming a "normal" unit, and a "normal" size, and roughly figuring 3.5 x ht for footage, about 4.66 ft per unit, and assuming 15 mil white, and assuming the cost of a 12/30 at the stated $95 price --- which I don't think is a "wholesale" price---and assuming 60 ft on a 12/30, thats about 1/13 of the "cost" of the tranny, or $7.31 for the tranny for that unit. And assuming that you were 'green" enough to use an electronic tranny, and assuming a ventex 12/30, and assuming it was fully loaded, and it pulled 1.5A, and again assuming 1/13 of the load for that letter, you've now got about .115 amps. So, now assuming that the letter is sitting on the floor, aka Manuel's example. Well, the tube supports are in it, roughly four of them, they have the tie wire on them, the tranny wires are sitting there, so does it take me 5 minutes to twist 4 wires, and twist two electrode wires together??? I think not. So, realistically, these types of examples show absolutely nothing except skills at math. And mine might be wrong by the way, but the point of my answer is there.

My point, and one of my big bitches --- is that its easy to throw numbers out there. We've all seen the led specs on longevity, the perfection of their white, the beauty of their illumination, etc. And you know, we've all seen some of the shit signs that are out there --- based on a salesman doing his job and selling his product, and some sign guy saying, "hey, I can do it cheaper, and get rid of that high priced neon guy". Screw the learning of how to deal with a glass product -------- that's why God invented plastic and paper dishes for people like that------- let's just put in the perfect led, cfl, whatever, and believe all the perfect things about it. But, damn, its cheap. And we won't have to put up with that neon guy. But I'll tell you what --------- if you were to build sample letters, and have the proper specs to properly position that little sticky led things in letters so that the salesguy can't complain, and you use his power supply so that can't be aan excuse, and you use the same plex, etc, etc, etc ------ and you have all these letters laid out side by side by side --- and you stand back and compare ---------. We all strive to do it cheaper, thus being able to sell cheaper. Who makes out ------- the customer is the one. He's the ONLY one that benefits. But, and its a big one --------- there is a time place for these different means of lighting. There are advancements being made, and when they get their shit together and put out decent products that actually compare. There is a corporate id sign that I pass everyday. There are LED's in it ---------- and it is absolutely drop dead gorgeous. It is white - perfect white, even when its - 0 degrees outside. Stunning. Neon couldn't do that. Now, if it lasts -------- then I'll jump on that led mfg bandwagon and tell them --- you've got a good product.

So, when questions arise about stuff, and folks are trying to compare things ------- my question is "what are you really trying to compare" and are you actually comparing what you THINK you're trying to.

And that is a major reason why old guys like me are considered grumpy, and assholes.

gn

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That's what I was trying to do with the 6$ figure. I was fractionalized the labor cost of what I thought it was. I'm sure I'm way off too. This is just for my own knowledge. I do see your point Gary or comparisons.

Now you have me asking another question in your last post. When you say "neon can't to that" are you referring to the "white" or the "0 degrees" I have heard neon has problems in the cold but I have no experience with that. It's a cold 78 outside and it's winter here.

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  • !llumenati
That's what I was trying to do with the 6$ figure. I was fractionalized the labor cost of what I thought it was. I'm sure I'm way off too. This is just for my own knowledge. I do see your point Gary or comparisons.

Now you have me asking another question in your last post. When you say "neon can't to that" are you referring to the "white" or the "0 degrees" I have heard neon has problems in the cold but I have no experience with that. It's a cold 78 outside and it's winter here.

Referring to cold. Fluroescent, neon, merc tubes in general don't like extreme cold. When cold, merc vapor condenses. Heat of the tube, heat from the trodes, etc cause the merc to vaporize ------ and brighten the tube. When its COLD - and not 78 outside--it takes forever for the glass to warm up and enable the tube to come to full brightness. Now -----eventually if the sign is on long enough, etc, it'll brighten --------- but that's just about closing time, and the sign goes off again. In the spring -----voila, nice bright sign. Now, on the other hand --------when led's don't like the cold, or just are lousy and they go out ------- they are OUT! Never again to work.

gn

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Would I be considered old or new? I have been in the industry for over 20 years. I started laying things out with a stabilo and painting with lettering quill. I had one of the first graphics advantage design stations. I now have a large-format digital printer, and am struggling to learn new computer programs like Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop. I was a ul licensed electric sign builder for over 10 years. We did a lot of individually lighted neon channel letters. I was slow to jump on the LED bandwagon. I have always been slow to try the new stuff. My motto always was, "if it isn't broken don't fix it". I also saw many sign company's having to go back out and remove the latest greatest product because it didn't work at their own expense.

I always thought I belonged to the new crowd, but after reading back over of us. I guess I sound kind of old..........

I have always been helpful to new people starting up... sometimes to a fault and that my own expense. I believe in karma, however

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Referring to cold. Fluroescent, neon, merc tubes in general don't like extreme cold. When cold, merc vapor condenses. Heat of the tube, heat from the trodes, etc cause the merc to vaporize ------ and brighten the tube. When its COLD - and not 78 outside--it takes forever for the glass to warm up and enable the tube to come to full brightness. Now -----eventually if the sign is on long enough, etc, it'll brighten --------- but that's just about closing time, and the sign goes off again. In the spring -----voila, nice bright sign. Now, on the other hand --------when led's don't like the cold, or just are lousy and they go out ------- they are OUT! Never again to work.

gn

I had often hoped that somebody would invent a neon transformer that had a temperature switch inside it. That would automatically switch from 30 ma to 60 ma at a certain temperature. What happens to us as we use the 60ma transformer, So it lights up bright in the wintertime, but then the tubes get burnt in the summertime...

Edited by shooter
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The TFT Octopus does that, a separate added components. But it would be a nice feature for a regular outdoor tranny.

Shooter, I'd like to think if your here and in cyber space you're still a part of the cutting edge :thumbs: No matter what those slim tight jeaned punks think!

But, I have to say in fairness, half of the cool features of this site have been written by programmers who can't even legally drink yet :P

Gary's still a yougin in my book!

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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The TFT Octopus does that, a separate added components. But it would be a nice feature for a regular outdoor tranny.

Shooter, I'd like to think if your here and in cyber space you're still a part of the cutting edge :thumbs: No matter what those slim tight jeaned punks think!

But, I have to say in fairness, half of the cool features of this site have been written by programmers who can't even legally drink yet :P

Gary's still a yougin in my book!

:headbang::headbang::headbang: The music is still not to loud! :headbang::headbang::headbang:

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