I see you a lot...But I don't hear you

[Erik Sine]

I heard something through the grapevine and not sure if it's true. So thought I'd ask.

Is it true if you're on a board with a sign assoc you cannot speak or participate in areas outside your assoc?

[manuellynch]

Manuel - I'm disappointed. Piss of old timers because letters can be made cheaper, or faster. What pisses me and other old timers off is because the new guys SELL those products and give their shit away.\

And do you really believe that age doesn't also bring experiences that can't be duplicated by someone that's 18 years old?? Assuming you're right --------- you'd back down what you know, what you can bring to the table because of your 30 years in led's etc to an 20 year old that managed to graduate from college, and is going to turn the industry on its heels with a brand new, undiscovered led that hasn't even been tested. Sounds like some of the doctors we have practicing. I take you on my team anyday --------. I can hire grunt labor ----- I can't find the experience that means shit. You know where I work, and we've discussed that very thing. Lots of talented people ---------------but expereince in the business????

And, please, don't anyone get me wrong. I'm all in favor of young people wanting to come in and LEARN the industry. But the key is to LEARN the business and not just rape it.

gn

gn

Gary, sometimes youth brings a lack of fear and an attitude towards trying to reinvent the world. I just dont like when older generations stop the creative expression or intentions of youth to try and pursue their dreams, interest or passion. Even though my parents told me the flame was hot I had to dance in it to learn that I could get burned...I had to learn in my way.

And Gary, dont get me wrong, there are some younger generation actions and how they approach situations that makes me feel like I am getting old. So instead of mocking it I decided to keep my brain moving and learning why they approach things in that way. I have learned a few lessons and have been able to teach a few too. I find that giving up on my experience and sitting side by side by youth opens them up to listening to my experiences. mutual respect.

And for the record - we are not "giving our product away" - we just took a look at some of the younger generation ideas of company structure and applied the ones that made sense and worked. We figured out how to significantly reduce overhead and operating cost and have decided instead of getting fat, dumb, happy and....old...we decided to pass savings onto customers. At the same time we actively teach them how to make more money - not just save energy but how to make money in a down market. I had a long talk with someone today about a solar system for powering a sign that will actually cost less to make the sign and install than a conventional fluorescent sign.

But Gary, I just turned 40, so officially I am now old.

Manuel

[imanut]

I wasn't referring to you as "giving your product away". I was more referring to the instant sign man that believes he can sell ready made letters, with stickie led's, throw them on the wall without regard to wiring requirements for $60 per letter --------- and the customer is happy because he made a great bargain.

And i know about young kids ---------- sit beside my kid on the computer and sometimes I feel old ------ but when he can't fix it, I get to, becuse of the experience. When you sit beside a whiz kid on the computer that designs a drop dead gorgeous sign ---------- and you ask how the hell they are going to weld inside a stroke tahts 5 inches deep, but only has 1/2" space ------ and they kinda look blank.

Yes, kids have changed the world, and thus themselves. They get wrapped up in videos, and ear plugs, and fail to learn social skills. The get tuned into movies, and the realism of that "other" make believe world, and then figure its okay to bring those traits of "instant" sex, killing, mayhem, language, etc into the real world. Sure, the world is chaning rapidly, and not just kids. Look at all the old farts that wander around with things stuck in their ear because they just can't get away from the phone. Memorize stuff, like phone numbers, etc --- why" we'll just use our phone address book. Shit --- I'm old.

gn

[Batch]

Well, from my experience it is awfully difficult to maintain a clear topic in forum. I occasionally visit signweb and am happy that they finally got rid of their old forum software and upgraded to something usable. Still, the site on a hole has a lot of a-holes posting.

Signs101 seems to be mostly well managed and helpful. But, seems to lean toward the graphics side of the industry.

I like this site the most. But, the thread drift and clashing seem to occasionally be a bit much. The most important thing is keeping on topic with out resulting to gestapo tactics. In example a question about neon should not be an invitation for someone to promote LED technology or vice versa.

This thread is a good example of a thread with a lot of information to try and stick with and some off topic posts as well. I would think a shorter initial post might illicit more responses. Such as just asking for people who don't post to explain what might help them to participate more.

My answer would be that I am primarily interested in the functional electrical side. The NEC and UL discussions. Because these topics are not posted on daily. I do not visit nor post daily. I do post and respond when I see it as appropriate. But, people who have something to offer still only come to the forums because the forum has something to offer. Either a place to learn or a place filled with people who are willing to learn and discuss the topic being discussed.

As stated earlier, I like this site the most out of the forums I visit and would like to see the posting activity increased.

[sidebar{read only if you want to}] As for the age thing. I am 40 years old and easily the most technologically advanced sign person that I know. I skip the ipod or iphone for that matter for my HTC Kaiser Pocket PC as my phone(ATT TILT with a custom ROM loaded). I connect that to my hybrid tablet PC via Bluetooth to search the net and also have copies of the codes available for search on either device. I am active in many forums and post daily in several tech oriented forums. I have over 25 years in the trade and haven't failed an inspection in probably 15 years. That is as a working sign man in what is probably one of the most regulated areas in the country, South Florida. So I have something to offer and if someone asks a question I can help with I respond. I come here to learn though more than anything.[/sidebar]

[Travis]

Well, from my experience it is awfully difficult to maintain a clear topic in forum. I occasionally visit signweb and am happy that they finally got rid of their old forum software and upgraded to something usable. Still, the site on a hole has a lot of a-holes posting.

Signs101 seems to be mostly well managed and helpful. But, seems to lean toward the graphics side of the industry.

I like this site the most. But, the thread drift and clashing seem to occasionally be a bit much. The most important thing is keeping on topic with out resulting to gestapo tactics. In example a question about neon should not be an invitation for someone to promote LED technology or vice versa.

This thread is a good example of a thread with a lot of information to try and stick with and some off topic posts as well. I would think a shorter initial post might illicit more responses. Such as just asking for people who don't post to explain what might help them to participate more.

My answer would be that I am primarily interested in the functional electrical side. The NEC and UL discussions. Because these topics are not posted on daily. I do not visit nor post daily. I do post and respond when I see it as appropriate. But, people who have something to offer still only come to the forums because the forum has something to offer. Either a place to learn or a place filled with people who are willing to learn and discuss the topic being discussed.

As stated earlier, I like this site the most out of the forums I visit and would like to see the posting activity increased.

[sidebar{read only if you want to}] As for the age thing. I am 40 years old and easily the most technologically advanced sign person that I know. I skip the ipod or iphone for that matter for my HTC Kaiser Pocket PC as my phone(ATT TILT with a custom ROM loaded). I connect that to my hybrid tablet PC via Bluetooth to search the net and also have copies of the codes available for search on either device. I am active in many forums and post daily in several tech oriented forums. I have over 25 years in the trade and haven't failed an inspection in probably 15 years. That is as a working sign man in what is probably one of the most regulated areas in the country, South Florida. So I have something to offer and if someone asks a question I can help with I respond. I come here to learn though more than anything.[/sidebar]

Smooth move Batch, you have just invited another topic change to the original post ironically enough by bringing up,,, topic change. However I would say that the current conversation has plenty to do with the original question of basically why is everyone so quiet and unwilling to become active for the bettering of our nitch in the sign industry (thats how I took it anyway). I think one of the great things about this site is that we are all having a conversation about particular topics. Fortunatelly most all of the time we are all basically civilized throughout, even though the topic may go off on a tangent, the conversation. West Coast Sign Guy posted a question and Gary (and others) have given their take on it. Fair enough I would say.

Personally WCSG I think the majority of us are basically lazy and feel belittled and ignorant by things of regulation (myself included). The ole "whatever I think say or do wont do anything" feeling is the way I feel about it. It all takes time, effort, knowledge and a network of contacts to get things done on the grand scale of regulation. Already my time is spread thin, I have to prioritize my efforts, I know only a little bit of what I want changed and I do not know any of the people that can help me get what i want done. **Now keep in mind these are general thoughts and just my take on it.

Now this mercury ban in Vermont and other states coming soon was a total let down to the neon section of the sign industry. This ban has opened the door for other states environmental whackos to join in. And where has been and will be our beloved sign associations? They werent there in Vermont, why would they take care of me even though I have been a loyal 'paying' member since spot was a puppy? These associations are paid to take care of their people and didnt do it. Now that everyone is bitching do we start to notice them to start stepping up to the plate. Now on the flip side of that, what about the neon makers in Vermont? I dont recall hearing of any protesting rallys going on during the legal process of the ban. Laziness is what I get from all that, but who the hell am I here in Illinois. You didnt see me protesting in Vermont, all you saw from me was complaining online. I am a real go getter I tell you. I kind of went to rattling there. Personally I would like to become part of the better good for my industry and I am taking steps to do so but in the meantime until I feel that what I think or say can do any good, I wont be the person to change the world so to speak.

I think what Gary noted about the younger generation has alot of valid points. My take on this is I have personally seen these spend 5 grand and I am a sign man put my father out of business. I have seen a fella spend a few hours in the fires only to put down on his resume that he is a glass bender (I snapped on this guy when I found out about that one). I have seen younger people spend more time figuring out the most effortless way to do something than it would have taken to do it the 'hard way'. I have seen signs basically ruined and mostly need redone because the advice of the old timer was not taken becaus it was just to hard and time consuming. I have personally seen LED's and digital prints, for example, ruin a sign and cheat the customer out of money because they paid to much for a sign that cannot properly compete with other signs around this customers business. So for these reasons, and many more I am sure (I dont really know because I am still a pup by old timer standards), old timers carefully choose who they share with and everyone in the industry should take not of this when choosing the right sign to offer, the right materials to use and so on. In a perfect world we would all feel free to share our knowledge with anyone that asks. But then again in a perfect world none of us would be dumb ass's and would all have good common sense.

[Erik Sine]

I think my OP has gotten a little misconstrued, especially with the age factor, but that's my fault.

My point is not how do I "get people to post on the board", though it would make me feel more comfortable about the direction of the industry or a one post acknowledgment of what is known or not known prior to reading topics such as "Mercury", "Ban in Vermont and other upcoming states", "LED Replacement of Neon and the true numbers behind it".

I know the reading and unique visitation grows with each passing month, we're getting more visitation from search engine bots. This site is more of a matter of time. I just think with certain topics in our industry a "sooner" is more important to "Later". I also realize the majority audience reading is more employee than company owners, who would have a bigger concern if they were here reading such topics. Because as Travis stated and as an employee who can only put in so much time " Personally WCSG I think the majority of us are basically lazy and feel belittled and ignorant by things of regulation (myself included). The ole "whatever I think say or do wont do anything" feeling is the way I feel about it. It all takes time, effort, knowledge and a network of contacts to get things done on the grand scale of regulation. Already my time is spread thin, I have to prioritize my efforts...."

In comparison now with another trade, say the electrical trade. There does not seem to be the same disconnect between competition or trade.

Before I go any further, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ownership of a sign company is more prevalent here because think of how valuable of a commodity an employee you can become, hell good help is "damn" hard to find in this industry. If you're here reading then your passionate about what you're doing, you care, you're taking that extra effort to learn.

Like Travis said, there is only so much time to spread yourself thin. My time too only allows me to pie graph responsibly with work load, coming on here keeping the site up to date and conjuring up new ideas for added functions, collecting email lists for site invitation, family & real life stuff, did I mention I have kids too?

Maybe it's because I live in California, KING city of regulation but, California is also the testing grounds for the rest of the states. This state seems to be the "Ground Zero" that will effect the rest of the promised land. In the last two years it seems like regulation is speeding ever so fast, faster than anyone who can make a difference or have a voice can keep up with it.

My goal is to get people to read this and become informed, only if it's a few starting and replying to these threads because it's very important whether you believe it or not. Change in industry, politics, regulation, & products is occurring, some is good & some is bad. I want to go to more seminars put on my associations or governing bodies who regulate this grand industry of ours and see more participation rather than nodding heads sitting back and drinking "Kool-aid" It's important for those of us to know that associations such as ISA do not necessarily have our best interests in heart, they have a vested interest themselves, they get paid collect, a salary and are a business just like any other. They are a non-profit, but non-profits are big business too. If anyone who does not think this is true, you're kidding yourself.

Sean's conversation with ISA, "I asked some ISA guys why they did not come by and see. They just smiled and said they were at the show. Guess they do not want to piss off the GE's or they have already made up their minds although the testing says different." can alone tell you enough

I also know they're are members that are told not to participate here do to employment, or afraid because they are under the umbrella of a association. I myself have taken steps to not name names in certain information that comes out. I would invite you to re-join under an alias if this is the case.

Well in closing to this post which I hope is not the last in this thread, this is my idea of open discussion and to quote someone from this site "what appeals to me with this forum is the networking opportunity and the dialogue that can lead to solutions to industry problems. I look forward to establishing a dialogue with anyone that will listen and I can listen too."

[manuellynch]

Well put sir.

Here is an issue I have - how are field inspectors being trained on the new laws??? They are not. Part of the joke sometimes is that a field inspector probably will not even know what they are looking at.

One time I asked a Chief Fire Inspector in California how he had his inspectors check lighting levels on staircases or in areas that required a certain foot candle reading. He told me, we just look at it and check to see if it appears to be enough light. I asked if they used any meters to check - he said no. He said it didnt matter anyway because even if there was a fire they couldnt be sued...if they were brought to court they could say it was inspected and it appeared to be enough light.

So how is the last sherriff in town, the inspector, being trained? Would be great to get some inspectors on this board. I would suggest everyone invite them to join this board and comment.

[imanut]

Well put sir.

Here is an issue I have - how are field inspectors being trained on the new laws??? They are not. Part of the joke sometimes is that a field inspector probably will not even know what they are looking at.

One time I asked a Chief Fire Inspector in California how he had his inspectors check lighting levels on staircases or in areas that required a certain foot candle reading. He told me, we just look at it and check to see if it appears to be enough light. I asked if they used any meters to check - he said no. He said it didnt matter anyway because even if there was a fire they couldnt be sued...if they were brought to court they could say it was inspected and it appeared to be enough light.

So how is the last sherriff in town, the inspector, being trained? Would be great to get some inspectors on this board. I would suggest everyone invite them to join this board and comment.

You can bet your sweet ass they won't respond ------------

gn

[Erik Sine]

Well put sir.

Here is an issue I have - how are field inspectors being trained on the new laws??? They are not. Part of the joke sometimes is that a field inspector probably will not even know what they are looking at.

One time I asked a Chief Fire Inspector in California how he had his inspectors check lighting levels on staircases or in areas that required a certain foot candle reading. He told me, we just look at it and check to see if it appears to be enough light. I asked if they used any meters to check - he said no. He said it didnt matter anyway because even if there was a fire they couldnt be sued...if they were brought to court they could say it was inspected and it appeared to be enough light.

So how is the last sherriff in town, the inspector, being trained? Would be great to get some inspectors on this board. I would suggest everyone invite them to join this board and comment.

IMHO, If I was a inspector I would not be posting here or join here. Mainly many will put responsibility on you as an inspector, and some will use you as a safety net on a regular basis ( you will be surprised how many actually already do), those who perform jobs that shouldn't be. That is a problem with relying on an inspector beyond making sure you went according to stamped plans and in accordance to NEC or UL. You as a experienced contractor should already have the knowledge of what your doing to pass inspection and make it safe.

This is where experience is key and for those who should have business being a contractor/head installer should have business doing what they do, I can go on, but this is for another thread.

[imanut]

IMHO, If I was a inspector I would not be posting here or join here. Mainly many will put responsibility on you as an inspector, and some will use you as a safety net on a regular basis ( you will be surprised how many actually already do), those who perform jobs that shouldn't be. That is a problem with relying on an inspector beyond making sure you went according to stamped plans and in accordance to NEC or UL. You as a experienced contractor should already have the knowledge of what your doing to pass inspection and make it safe.

This is where experience is key and for those who should have business being a contractor/head installer should have business doing what they do, I can go on, but this is for another thread.

These questions of training, etc are the same ones I bring up to UL and NAEI all the time. Along with does the UL and NAEI ever talk between themselves, do the UL inspectors ever talk/learn/discuss issues between themselves.

To many extents ---- they are just like everyone else ----- they attempt to "do" their job, don't want to "do" too much, and don't want to "know" too much. Easy to plead ignorance.

gn

[BlazeTSU]

i hit inside the "25-35" demographic and i'm just a baby in the industry but i'm excited to seek out companies, websites and individuals willing to help me take my career to the next level. i'm obviously money-motivated but i can make money doing a multitude of "jobs". my passion has truly become neon/signage and its the first thing that i've done in my life, jobwise, where i'm not thinking of what i'll be doing next year. i have no doubt that the sign industry is my career and that i'll be doing it in some form for the rest of my life.

unfortunately it is difficult to find people willing to actually teach you the ways of the industry. on the flip-side of that, if someone isn't willing to seek out worthy and willing mentors then how serious are they? personally i'm super self motivating when it comes to my passions so an immediate lack of an industry mentor is only a hurdle and not a mountain. thats why i enjoy this site so much. i was putting google through the wringer looking for places to learn and discuss neon and signage and most other places were either dormant or just out and out bullshit. this place stood out to me from the first second i visited. it seemed to me that there are individuals here that knew a ton about many different facets of the industry and weren't afraid to talk about it. another thing that was really attractive to me was the very "pro-neon" vibe i got along with the "pro-LED" attitude as well. its important to me to look up to and seek answers from confident people that aren't afraid to see the benefits of other tools and techniques for the greater good of the product.

i have further opinions on this topic but its late and i think i've hit the points i wanted to tonight.

p.s. - i would like to think that i had "youthful" ambition with an "old-timer" work ethic................thats what i'm shooting for anyway