Electric Signs, Governement & ISA

[Erik Sine]

Since my conversations with electric sign manufacturer's to the energy conservation seminars put on my ISA who had guest speakers from Edison and the Energy Commission, one thing kept ringing in the back of my head on that lowly day as I sat questioning everything that was being told to me that afternoon by Doug Avery (Edison) and Gary Flamm (Ca Energy Commission). My deepest suspicions have been verified and this will effect everyone in the electric sign industry from top to bottom.

Their talking points on "they want to hear from us sign makers" and "...how they will be working with lighting manufacturers" "...How they want to get all parties together, and discuss ways to get more energy efficient in California and to better create policy on what can and can't be used" is all for what? A way to massage us and blow smoke up our "you know what"

THEY, have already come to a decision on what is going to happen, or force to happen.

To bring up some of this in more depth, read this first if you don't know what I'm talking about as it pertains to this Seminar & ISA

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=2178

At this point the ISA is as good for us as the UN is for America. Why do I say that???

Because I've just had a conversation someone from the ISA who verifies to me from my opening statement that a decision has already been made in what is to come on what we will be able to use and not use even if it goes against the idea of conserving energy. It hasn't been said openly yet but Edison already knows from their testing that white LED's are less efficient than neon in channel letters, though they tell us the opposite. Why is Edison among other energy providers and Energy Commission willing to go against other lighting sources you ask such as neon, CFL, CCFL, and fluorescent tubes?

Because our government, the good ol' government has highly financed secured and subsidized LED companies such as Gelcore and Sloan for R&D, and what I will call "Lobby & Advertising Money" to who?? Now the government has to Justify all the millions upon millions of dollars spent. So even if they can't justify from their tests that LED's are more efficient in power and brightness, they will NOW go after, here it comes drum roll please...Mercury and in all phases of light sources. Does our now government want to look dumb on money spent if not, even thought they can on a everyday basis on dumb decisions to spend money.

Back to, "Lobby & Advertising Money" Well look no further than ISA who is willing to take it and who puts on these seminars and asks us to pay them more money, so they can put on an act to appear as if they are concerned and want our feedback to help make a future decision on what has already been decided.

Can you say double dip?

All the pieces in the background are now coming to the foreground. All points I raised and questions raised in their seminar make sense now. The dumbfounded looks I got which brought hesitation to answering and "Moving right along now", all make sense! Why did I get this, because they knew I was right and it was the obvious, but they weren't going to say it. They already know what the end result is, they just want to go through the motions and justify their money spent.

ISA is truly as good for us as the UN is for America. Back up to the early part of this thread where I linked you to another thread.

At the San Diego show the energy commission did not even come by the booth to see the comparison. It was on for 50+ hours straight with the meters and the neon was more efficent and 3X brighter (we all know that by now).

I asked some ISA guys why they did not come by and see. They just smiled and said they were at the show. Guess they do not want to piss off the GE's or they have already made up thier minds although the testing says differnt.

This small statement only adds and makes more sense now, right?

All future seminars on Mercury and Energy efficiency put on by the ISA are irrelevant and ungenuine, nothing more to make more money and put on the guise of "We care about you and your concerns of the Sign Industry" ISA doesn't care, because they have more money now than they ever did from subsidized dollars, it's just good business for them. What better way than to play both sides.

Let's look at another topic in the seminar and a hot topic in our industry. The phase out of T-12's over T-8's and rebates energy companies are handing out to retrofit existing signs or asking to fabricate future signs into T-8's. Why? Because they are of the opinion that T-8's are brighter and we can use less of them instead of "Bulky energy wasting T-12"? No, the result will be more energy consumption with more lamps because of shorter spacing between them to get away from hot spots and uneven lighting

This is some props Edison fed to us on their "Junk Science" tests.

Prop A. The Sign cabinet they use for testing. Can anyone see what's wrong with using this cabinet?

Prop B. On the top you see standard T-12's, on the lower T-12 Tri-Phoshpor. The idea is to ask, if will do any good to use Tri's instead of standard phosphor lamps as a possibility to use less of them in a sign to save power consumption. There results say no, because though they are brighter, they create hot spots. Again, I'll ask, "Can anyone see what's wrong with using this cabinet?" Would you build a cabinet like this? I brought up the point that no sign builder would build a cabinet in that depth and asked what acrylic they used? Guess what I got once again with a smirk, "Next slide"

Prop C. Their results and conclusion. Right or wrong? Did anyone else in that room tell them their results are wrong? Nope. We as sign builder know when we start getting into tri-phosphor lamps that we can even change depths of cans and channel letters from 5" to 8" to use less strokes to accomplish the same with more strokes. I also know I get a brighter light using a tri over standard 6500 white.

All you sign component manufacturer's who spend money on ISA for advertising or membership are killing yourself. Sure they ask you to take part in making the industry better, but is you're dedicated hard earned time fruitless?

Mercury now will be their goal to go after, and they will send their mercury enforcement agencies or "Jack booted thugs" to enforce it. Yes, it does not matter that production of an LED is is actually harder on the atmosphere over other lighting technologies because LED's are produced in China where have coal production, because again the government has already spent millions one type of lobbied technology.

How can good desions be made in orgs such as ISA that have boards members in bed with one another? Not to name names, but take a look at board members and ask yourself how hard it would be to make a "right decision" cutting through money and politics.

My opinion, ISA has gotten too big with our true interests, not in their best financial interests.

Again, what ever happens in California, even though you might not be in California will happen first in California,and because we are the ground zero for all regulation and it will work it's way east, most of the time. Lest we say, Vermont.

I'm not a neon guy, I'm not a LED guy, and I'm not a Fluorescent guy......I'm just an electric sign producer that will use all and the right light source that best fits the sign application I'm making. I don't want to be told and controlled by beauracrats & politicians what I have to put into my signs I produce, even if it defies logic and common sense.

I also think members composed of sign shops and manufacturers need to absolutely pull their membership from ISA and test their local state Associations. Though checking most local state associations members have the same common names as board members. Maybe not all Sign Associations have been bought, yet. Maybe International is just too international like the UN for us.

In closing I'm not here to bash all LED makers and I'm not here to say "LED bad, neon Good" (As as I speak I'm finishing up a LED channel letter sign) as this does not just pertain to neon. There just has to become a time where we as a community start to smarten up who we help finance and buy from before the very machine we build destroys us. They are already handing us our hat and opening the door before we even came in.

So, now that you know this will effect you and the inevitable is coming as an electric sign shop and electric sign component makers, what are your thoughts? We still mum?

Edited May 13, 2008 by Westcoast Sign Guy

[imanut]

Eric----------when you stated ISA members in bed with each other --------- and not to name names------------I thought oh boy, this'll get good!! And then no names ---------

I don't think its fair just to blame the feds, nor to just blame ISA. Let's blame everyone for just sitting on their fat asses and dong NOTHING about any of it. Neon companies know about these issues----and they wait for someone else to fight. ISA knows about these issues, and they wait for someone else to hold their hand and lead the way. Local sign associations, who are usually the most up for the fight --------often times wait too long. The T-8 battle in signs is over in Calif and T-12's won. BUT----------okay, you have to use an electronic ballast to get the energy savings that is required. Big f-deal. If the gov't calls up experts for info ---------they assume they get accurate info----just like I did when I inquired of recycling experts about recycling. What a bunch of b.s. The battle for what lights to use in California is not over. Several mfg's are going over this next week ---including David Ablon from TEcnolux, armed to the hilt to take on all comers. Should be interesting. What I say is don't give up the ship, but do get involved. Call David and see if people are needed at his meeting to show alliance. Contact John Boyd from Ventex and see if he's going to be there. Contact Erik Johnson and see if he's going to be there. Contact Joe Walsh from Voltarc and see if he's going to be there. Contact Sean from Egl and see if they are going to be there. Talk to these people on a REGULAR basis to see what's going on in the industry. These are ;companies and individuals that have lots more to lose if all these regulations come to pass. Start KNOWING the big sign companies in your area--------they really don't care if they compete with you, because they DON'T compete with you. If you contact thse places for information, and show them that you are willing to not just speak up, but to show up and be counted --------- it does count. In the mercury seminar in Florida ---------maybe 30-40 people were there. No, we didn't get all the concrete answers that are needed - but the recycling organization, and ISA, were both confronted that something has to be done.

No, I don't like gov't policing anymore than you. I don't like the thoughts of nazi policing merc phobias either. BUT, again, it really is a hazard ---- talk to your love, she treats kids every day that MIGHT be effected by callousness of the industry that shit cans neon, and fluorescent tubes ---- because of the attitude it doesn't really matter. Yes -------- discussion also came up about the chemicals IN led's that are also going to be an issue. The problem----everyone figures that what they do, or don't do, is irrelevant. BIG companies are already doing something --------- but little companies figure its too much trouble. Can't run and hide and just not "do" neon anymore --------------its virtually any light source that has issues. Roughly 500 million fl lamps were landfilled last year. folks say ----- well its just a little bit if I throw mine away ------------and they're right. The recycling industry has all been notified that they have to get on the same page. Call around ------- if you don't get answers, call Paul Abernathy. He's the man. Head of the recycling association. Google him, or I'll give you his number. He's already had hours worth of meetings with his fellow recyclers. Its not a really big issue to recycle---------its just a case of doing it. If it costs your client $5 to recycle a tube -------fl or neon-------well, tough shit, its the cost of doing business. Try telling your next child, or your child's child --------------sorry kiddo about the weird medical issue you have --------might be from merc that I threw into the ground. Talk to your bender ------ and your competitors-------------and ask them the same damn thing. Are you ready to apologize to your kid about his health. Now ----if you keep talking to these competitors, and glass people, and you can tell them what, exactly, they need to do to recycle------------THEN, and only then do you reserve the right to bitch about ISA, or the gov't having their heads up their perpetual asses. Which as we all know - they do. If you talk to ISA, they probably don't like my name, but you know, I don't really care. To me, its the industry that I care about, and my kids that I DON'T want to have to explain to why I did nothing, when I knew.

gn

[Erik Sine]

Problem is Gary, what David, John, Erik or Sean bring to the table armed to the hilt with props, graphs, taped evidence....won't change anything. The decisions has been made, the ball is rolling and their just going through the motions and ISA already has know this, THAT is the issue.

ISA knows this because they have confirmed it. That is my issue. So what good are they? Why continue membership?

But from what I get in empty replies, maybe I should just continue with topics such as "better ways to trim cap", "Ideas to spruce up my returns" or liven the comedy central forum more.

On a side note. What my wife works with and causes is so broad. Some interesting stats on that are the multi-combinations (you won't hear pharmaceuticals talking about this now will we?) 2 year old shot and parents who have kids at older age. Ask Kirstie how old most of the kids parents are that she works with.

On a last note, how was the Merc shop? details, details!

[imanut]

Problem is Gary, what David, John, Erik or Sean bring to the table armed to the hilt with props, graphs, taped evidence....won't change anything. The decisions has been made, the ball is rolling and their just going through the motions and ISA already has know this, THAT is the issue.

ISA knows this because they have confirmed it. That is my issue. So what good are they? Why continue membership?

But from what I get in empty replies, maybe I should just continue with topics such as "better ways to trim cap", "Ideas to spruce up my returns" or liven the comedy central forum more.

On a side note. What my wife works with and causes is so broad. Some interesting stats on that are the multi-combinations (you won't hear pharmaceuticals talking about this now will we?) 2 year old shot and parents who have kids at older age. Ask Kirstie how old most of the kids parents are that she works with.

On a last note, how was the Merc shop? details, details!

I laughed at your comment about just doing topics that concern trimcapping, comedy forum, etc, or helping to design signs thru a pick and choose of suggestions articles. I laughed ----------- because you are, oh so, right. The truth being that most don't really care. If neon is banned -- okay, we'll use something else. If T-8's are the legal thing--okay. If a new law is passed, okay. Its been that way for 40 years.

Don't get me talking about pharmaceuticals ---------if any of you are on a cholesterol med --- feel free to contact you. I can discourse that almost better than mercury.

On the merc forum --------first off, why bother?? Secondly, who cares? Kinda like your first post --- and look at all the responses you got. Thirdly---need a bit more time. Fourthly -- don't want to hijack this post. And, finally, fifthly---there has been absolutely no modernization of the picture forum lately-------and that really has nothing to do with it, just thought I'd throw that in.

gn

[Erik Sine]

You know, I haven't been in the electric sign business too long compared to others and I have been introduced into the actual industry for as long as some have bat an eye or taken one breath.

In some ways, I wish I would have never really been introduced to it, because I hate knowing what's around the corner or knowing what I know now. Sort of like strolling through Disneyland, some will see Space Mountain as a roller coaster ride in the dark with music playing, some will see Pirate's of the Caribbean as a fantasy and feel they have been taken back in time to experience what was like. When I see the industry now I see past the illusion and view Space Mountain with the lights on revealing everything that was hidden with just a simple track bolted and welded together, I also see the Pirate ride with 18" high water with a track at the bottom that was hidden, and the mechanics of the characters.

Well the response back may not be high and this may pass thru one ear and out the other without a care just as you said. But there will come a day when many will read this is the future after doing a google search on antiquities of scarce neon or after they leave "The Sign Museum" in Ohio and say, "Wow, look at what a few who are in the industry discussed back when there was neon and fluorescent lighting. How come there were so many and so few did anything?" I know this point may be the extreme but it's kind of the way Churchill warned for years and years that the Nazi party was really who they were before they stormed through so many countries.

Personally I think us little guys can do more by writing associations like ISA and others who don't really, and I mean really help us out. Isn't that what an association is for, non profit who looks out for us in the industry right? Oh wait, they do make a profit and make an extra salary. Write them that we will cancel our membership, or no longer support their cause or way of financial gain. How would it be if a show put on by an association got less and less attendance every year? With fewer donations and membership? All of this can be felt.

I know, I'm a angry nut job for starting this thread. But the more voices the better. Everyone has a unique voice here and the ones who should be reading this really are, trust me on that.

I get emails and PM's about why is it so brutal here and it's not being positive or inspiring for the industry. Well, you won't read about this anywhere else, it wouldn't last a day. Yes, there can be some batting back and forth between industries, but it keeps it honest here. If your not honest, your competition will keep you honest.

I know, let's get back to better ways to trim cap, sign models and "should I use 2283, 2415, or 2157 red for my channel letters?"

I really don't know why people like Kool-Aid? It's just dye and huge amounts of sugar, I like a cold beer much better. It takes a really longtime to make, there's dedication involved to make it and it tastes much better when you truly taste it

Here's to digging my feet in and planting my foot (and my poles)

[imanut]

I liked your analogy of Disneyland - so very true and apropo.

Kinda funny, I noticed that 63 people have viewed this thread -----------and except for you and I ------nada in response. But someone make a post about doing it cheaper with LED's and everyones all over it. Do a post about free designing of signs, and everyones all over it. Post a "pic" and everyones drooling all over it.

I appreciate your efforts ---------even if the time you spend typing could have been better spent with K-girl, and your kids. I truly wish you'd have been at the ISA show --------------just to rant a bit. Vendors were commenting about the merc seminar. They were asking questions of the recycling guys when they walked around -----------and POINTEDLY asking questions about what was/is/maybe/should be/possibly going to be done. LED folks asked me why I brought up the issue of arsenic and cadmium in leds ----------like it just might burst another bubble. Why issues with led production and environment were brought up in the same context as merc pollution. And yes, some asked why I even bothered.

So, lets stop this bull shit, let's get back to the pics, the choice of trim cap, colors you can achieve with led's using lumahaze letters, and how to destroy the effect of halo lighting by using other lights to light up the sign.

[JR Neon]

Never heard of 2415 red now that you bring it up haha, just kidding

I don't have much to say other than keep up with bringing us the info. This site is very informative and believe it or not my eyes are getting wider to the happenings. I can't help out in anyway by threatening to cancel a membership as I don't have that power but I would love to have a beer or two and pick your brains at the next show.

I, can however help out by supporting this site when I can. Maybe my contribution will help you get your much needed dedicated server or maybe lobby money for bribery, lol

Hope you all are having a great weekend.

-Mike

[from someone one always reading]

Your new Board Patron

[Erik Sine]

Never heard of 2415 red now that you bring it up haha, just kidding

I don't have much to say other than keep up with bringing us the info. This site is very informative and believe it or not my eyes are getting wider to the happenings. I can't help out in anyway by threatening to cancel a membership as I don't have that power but I would love to have a beer or two and pick your brains at the next show.

I, can however help out by supporting this site when I can. Maybe my contribution will help you get your much needed dedicated server or maybe lobby money for bribery, lol

Hope you all are having a great weekend.

-Mike

[from someone one always reading]

Your new Board Patron

Thank you Mike, for your contribution.

There are many ways of contributing that helps supporting this forum. By starting good threads, sharing some insight, creating a tutorial, writing articels and helping to meet a goal of getting this site on a dedicated server.

Look forward to meeting you in Vegas!

[imanut]

Never heard of 2415 red now that you bring it up haha, just kidding

I don't have much to say other than keep up with bringing us the info. This site is very informative and believe it or not my eyes are getting wider to the happenings. I can't help out in anyway by threatening to cancel a membership as I don't have that power but I would love to have a beer or two and pick your brains at the next show.

I, can however help out by supporting this site when I can. Maybe my contribution will help you get your much needed dedicated server or maybe lobby money for bribery, lol

Hope you all are having a great weekend.

-Mike

[from someone one always reading]

Your new Board Patron

See, that's the point. Sure, Eric gets alot of good info on this site, and I'm sure that Eric appreciates your offer to "buy" him a new server. BUT---

You also stated you're learning alot --------------and going to do nothing with the "new" information you have except offer your services to share a beer????

Not what the industry needs. What the industry needs is for you to care enough about the industry to share that information. NOT just ---"hey, lookie what I just read and learned about". No, its a case of taking an interest in the info and the trade. What is to keep you from calling around to find out about recycling issues in YOUR area --------------- and then going to your bosses with FACTS and INFORMATION relative to what your company does, and be able to explain to them what THEY need to do and WHY they need to do it.

I'll explain. You work for a small company with a boss. I work for probably the largest sign mfg with lots of bosses, lots of VP's, lots of layers between us janitors and the decision makers. And on the food chain, as I refer to it, I'm almost at the bottom. I was given the assignment, being the low guy, to research IMERC -----------and if you don't know what it is, I'd suggest googling it because it would take to loong to explain. 10 minutes was what I given to sum it up. I took 1.5 hours -----------. I then did it three more times for different factions of our company, the last time for nothing but vp's. Bsed on my findings, and my research ---------and my gray hair-------they actually believed me. It wasn't about getting rid of neon, it was about our industry. It wasn't about the $25,000 fine per letter thrown away in the garbage, and the months in jail ---------this was our industry tht is being affected. It was a case of what do we need to do. It was a case of prying for more info. You CAN do the same thing. You only have one guy to convince. You only have one area that you work in doing signs --------- try a global approach. Try having a letter repaired, or a set of letters removed that YOU are responsible for - and the job is 3,000 miles away. Figure out those logistics.

You just had a sign show in Calif. Did you go?? No. You're probably going to be having one in the northwest. Are you going? does your company belong to the CSA? Call them ----------ask them these questions about recycling? Ask them the questions about t-8's and t-12's. Ask them about the ban on magnetic ballasts and the call for electronics?? good thing/bad thing???? And then prove to your bosses why electronics can save their company money, and save electricity for their customers. YOu want to show your bosss your more than a rookie --------teach them some stuff. Prove to them why electronic transformers can save them money ----------. You've got the people on this site that you can contact.

Just don't read this stuff ---------------and ask for another beer and forget to do anyting with this information.

ANd Eric ------ note that he DID offer to provide a dedicated server.

gn

[YYZ]

Kinda funny, I noticed that 63 people have viewed this thread -----------and except for you and I ------nada in response. But someone make a post about doing it cheaper with LED's and everyones all over it. Do a post about free designing of signs, and everyones all over it. Post a "pic" and everyones drooling all over it.

I would have jumped in earlier, but the whole "travel to Orlando / ISA show / eat & drink with Johnny / ISA Show / travel back to Toronto" seems to have taken more out of me than it did you, as I haven't been on the forum since Wednesday night.

Having read much of what has been said, let me first clarify 2 things:

1) I am an LED guy and do not make any bones about it. I like the technology and deal with it extensively.

2) I have had nothing at all to do with any legal body in the US or Canada to get legislation introduced to either A) force people to use LEDs or B) Ban the use of alternate products that may or may not contain hazardous materials.

That said, I have to weigh in on some of the comments made earlier... I'll itemize them so that replies can be made to specific thoughts.

I) As I have said repeatedly - LEDSs will achieve greater brightness with less power than neon and fluorescent. It wasn't 2~ years ago when these "government initiatives" and with most products that people have on the market, it isn't even out there today - but the roadmap is there - so the argument about current side by side comparisons is sorta pointless. These agencies, bodies (or whoever) are usually slow and behind the times when it comes to passing sensible laws, so this time they are proactive and laying the groundwork for what WILL be available quite soon. They are ahead of the curve and people aren't used to it.

II) I disagree with the way things are being done as well, but as Gary points out, it has a lot to do with too many people sitting on their hands for too long and allowing others to speak for them. *BUT* Having a beef with the way things are being done doesn't automatically mean that the intentions are completely wrong. There are ways to move forward and accomplish things without blitzkreig tactics (in response to your Hitler reference) and it disappoints me to learn that the blitz does in fact seem to be on.

So, lets stop this bull shit, let's get back to the pics, the choice of trim cap, colors you can achieve with led's using lumahaze letters, and how to destroy the effect of halo lighting by using other lights to light up the sign.

I'm curious to hear about Erik's foray into LED channel letters myself (though I have a personal bias)

[Erik Sine]

Gary he didn't offer a dedicated server, I wish What he did do was buy a paid subscription.

I'll have a beer with anyone here anytime

Marko, Sign is up! Just waiting for the electrician to run to the power close to the raceway. Other than that, I lit up the two signs with an extension cord. It came out nice but have to find another way than using a clear frosted backing. I noticed a few others in the center who used it, it appears and the halo appears jagged. But the plus side to the halo jagged look is it makes the halo look like orange fire with goes with the type style. I have to go back for a night time shot of the sign.

I'll post in the portfolio forum of the sign. I have pics to post for you Marko and Sculpt Nouveau

Now back to the angry post

[imanut]

I) As I have said repeatedly - LEDSs will achieve greater brightness with less power than neon and fluorescent. It wasn't 2~ years ago when these "government initiatives" and with most products that people have on the market, it isn't even out there today - but the roadmap is there - so the argument about current side by side comparisons is sorta pointless. These agencies, bodies (or whoever) are usually slow and behind the times when it comes to passing sensible laws, so this time they are proactive and laying the groundwork for what WILL be available quite soon. They are ahead of the curve and people aren't used to it.

II) I disagree with the way things are being done as well, but as Gary points out, it has a lot to do with too many people sitting on their hands for too long and allowing others to speak for them. *BUT* Having a beef with the way things are being done doesn't automatically mean that the intentions are completely wrong. There are ways to move forward and accomplish things without blitzkreig tactics (in response to your Hitler reference) and it disappoints me to learn that the blitz does in fact seem to be on.

I'm curious to hear about Erik's foray into LED channel letters myself (though I have a personal bias)

I don't dispute evolution. I don't even dispute that led's might eventually rule. Eventually. I absolutely don't dispute that their needs to be recycling for lamps of ANY kind. What I do dispute is the laws being passed with no evident solution, and with no concerted effort to make the law feasible - but with every effort to virtually ban a product because of false information.

My mention of merc nazis--------on other posts the reference is there, and it sounded good. Better than merc phobiaists.

gn

Edited March 31, 2008 by Westcoast Sign Guy

[imanut]

Gary he didn't offer a dedicated server, I wish What he did do was buy a paid subscription.

I'll have a beer with anyone here anytime

Marko, Sign is up! Just waiting for the electrician to run to the power close to the raceway. Other than that, I lit up the two signs with an extension cord. It came out nice but have to find another way than using a clear frosted backing. I noticed a few others in the center who used it, it appears and the halo appears jagged. But the plus side to the halo jagged look is it makes the halo look like orange fire with goes with the type style. I have to go back for a night time shot of the sign.

I'll post in the portfolio forum of the sign. I have pics to post for you Marko and Sculpt Nouveau

Now back to the angry post

What he said was "Maybe my contribution will help you get your much needed dedicated server " -------------sos I took it literally that if his donation was big enough it be a reality, he'd be a contributor, etc-------------

gn

[YYZ]

III) Erik - you said LEDs are made in China, which uses lots of coal. This is not completely true.

First... most of the LED chips used for channel letter modules are produced in Japan, then Taiwan, Korea or Singapore, with in the US or Europe. There ARE chips being made in China (some good, most of a lower 'mainland' grade), but these other countries that actually supply much more of the chips used in 'sign' products rely on a lot more nuclear power, which IS cleaner power.

Second... the final assembly into finished products doesn't get done in the same place. A lot of this does happen in China - depending on company, product, etc - but this still wouldn't qualify as "all made in China". Manuel can shed some more light, but I think the phosphor/chemical and chip side of production is more power hungry than the final system integration.

[Erik Sine]

III) Erik - you said LEDs are made in China, which uses lots of coal. This is not completely true.

First... most of the LED chips used for channel letter modules are produced in Japan, then Taiwan, Korea or Singapore, with in the US or Europe. There ARE chips being made in China (some good, most of a lower 'mainland' grade), but these other countries that actually supply much more of the chips used in 'sign' products rely on a lot more nuclear power, which IS cleaner power.

Second... the final assembly into finished products doesn't get done in the same place. A lot of this does happen in China - depending on company, product, etc - but this still wouldn't qualify as "all made in China". Manuel can shed some more light, but I think the phosphor/chemical and chip side of production is more power hungry than the final system integration.

You are correct about china, not completely .

Also - I am an LED guy - but at the same time it should be noted that the fabrication of LEDs (the chips, boards, heatsinks, etc) actually requires a lot more power to produce than a comparable light output fluorescent. And since the power used to produce LEDs mostly comes from Coal Power plants it appears that LEDs put more mercury into the environment than we originally imagined.

There is still one thing I'm still on the fence about something that I will repeat, something I've always said and it's in regards to physics. You say one day LED's "May" get brighter and use less power consumption over neon/fluorescent power sources. This May be true but,

You can only get so much out of what you put in, that being said, there is a balance to be payed with, with anything. You may achieve brightness, but at what cost? and visa versa. Something will have to be given up.

So in my opinion, to me, it's a "Maybe" with a long shot for replacing neon/fluorescent. You would also have to be counting on no further advancement in the latter technologies. Various neon engineers guy have also playing with the idea of merc free tubes using different shells, glass, gas and a few other components I can't go into. It is also a technology a lot have been playing with, that is also coming, that is also just a matter of "when".

I think and always will say LED's, Fluorescent & Neon all have their place in there own proper application. A good example is the set of letters I just put up over the weekend using Marko's LED's. I could not have used Fluorescent or Neon because the stroke of the letter was to thin, so LED's were the perfect choice.

NOW back to the thread at hand on total annihilation of the rebel forces Neon and Fluorescent illumination, by the evil Darth LED!

[imanut]

NOW back to the thread at hand!

And the thread was --------- 102 views, 14 reponses by 4 people. Moving right along.

gn

[Travis]

Now I am sure that 20-30 of those views are from me. I am always getting caught up in running out of time when typing a long winded response.

Erik, perhaps you are the Luke Skywalker of our generation in the sign industry.

I think regardless of the improvements that we 'may' see with LED's (which I will say doesnt do a thing for me as I tend to live in the now and for some odd reason tend to have good common sense that has always told me that LED companies are full of shit and recently have been proven so by neon folk doing their homework as well as obvious LED failures and short comings, simply put they have not been the saving grace they have been said to be by a long shot, but I guess we will see how the future unfolds) we have more to deal with than LED manufacturers, government and such. We also have the general public that has a big hole in their cheeks from the big ole fishing hook that has been cast. I think all would agree that the sign industry is quite small compared to the general public.

Unfortunately we have industry associations that are paid to act in our best interests and for the most part we let them do what they want. How many association member actually do more than send in their monthly check. As you, Erik, have been saying without a loud voice no one will be prompted to do anything. Why should they, no one is fussin so lets do it.

As for fussing on a web site, it is certainly a great tool to get info out to folks looking for it. As the dude that is buying a new dedicated server mentioned, he is picking up on a lot. And as Gary mentioned, what is he going to do with this new found knowledge?

Here we are again, this is third time I have started to reply to this and have ran out of time. Even though I feel my comments are incomplete and ramblish I will post it just so you folks will know there is someone else concerned about this and also looking into it.

[YYZ]

I don't think I have ever say "may" or "maybe". They "will".

Actually - they already have - though not for volume/sign production due to costs and feasibility. This "will" change too.

Your point about giving up something is a little confusing, but you might be right. The actual products might require people to learn to to things differently, to use new language to describe the products and how they are used, to follow new codes and standards that aren't yet in place. Homes will be built that don't have a single Edison socket and variations of White light will be available at the touch of a remote control. Things might cost more to produce and governments may well subsidize these costs so that they don't have to build billion dollar nuclear reactors... we would still come out ahead. Regardless what someone may think about global warming or the environment, the fact is that power consumption increases as the population increases - so finding ways to use less power per person is smart from a practical and economical standpoint. My thing is efficiency and practicality, not the Gore-type spiel that is behind some of the BS described in this thread.

[Erik Sine]

Erik, perhaps you are the Luke Skywalker of our generation in the sign industry.

Oh man, Luke Skywalker was always a dork. How about Han Solo? He was much more cooler

What I was referring to about giving something up was checks and balances. For example, lets take neon.

We know we can get 60ft out of a 15/30 tranny using 13mm glass with Hg will consume 1.7 amps (HPF). (Don't you love the American system mixed with the metric?)

Now, what if we want more footage out of that tranny? Well now we can increase the diameter of the glass to 18mm and get 20 feet more from the 60 feet, but we loose some brightness.

So now what if we want brighter light from that 18mm? To do so we increase the ma to 60. Now we have a brighter tube, still keeping the footage but now were consuming 3.25 amps from the 1.7 that we started off with.

Of course you also have to factor in over all costs, longevity and what they mean in the long run. This is just a small example of what I was talking about.

I'm sure basic principles work the same way with LED's but in different ways

[imanut]

Now, what if we want more footage out of that tranny? Well now we can increase the diameter of the glass to 18mm and get 20 feet more from the 60 feet, but we loose some brightness.

Slight correction----------if we increase the diam of glass we do NOT lose brightness. For one, brightness is not a measurable term. IF we speak of lumens of light ------------we get MORE from the largeer diameter glass. It APPEARS the smaller diam is brighter because of less surface area, appears to be a brighter lightsource --- but readings will tell you differently.

gn

[Erik Sine]

Now, what if we want more footage out of that tranny? Well now we can increase the diameter of the glass to 18mm and get 20 feet more from the 60 feet, but we loose some brightness.

Slight correction----------if we increase the diam of glass we do NOT lose brightness. For one, brightness is not a measurable term. IF we speak of lumens of light ------------we get MORE from the largeer diameter glass. It APPEARS the smaller diam is brighter because of less surface area, appears to be a brighter lightsource --- but readings will tell you differently.

gn

Yes it's dispersed a farther distance on a larger diameter tube than on a thinner tube, but you get my basic theory on checks and balances

[imanut]

Yes it's dispersed a farther distance on a larger diameter tube than on a thinner tube, but you get my basic theory on checks and balances

Yeah---that's the theory where we keep our wives in line --------------

gn

[Travis]

True, Mr. Solo is indeed the cooler of the two. However Skywalker is the one that always makes the winning shot!

I just noticed the banner on the front page, they really got you wound up dont they. I would imagine you could be one to make some noise about it too with the resources you have at hand. F**ckin awesome, Viva Le Resistance!!

I had actually come up with a few questions and discussion about the topic at hand but damn it I plan to be an ultra busy day dealing with folks and I wanna stay in a good mood as long as I can.

[Lane Booth]

There is no way I'm cancelling my ISA membership. Money is tight and we just became members about 2 weeks ago. If I go to Katie now and tell her "Honey, we need to cancel our ISA membership." Two things are gonna happen:

1. I'm gonna get my ass kicked by a girl.
   
2. Did I mention I'm gonna get my ass kicked by a girl!
   

[Erik Sine]

There is no way I'm cancelling my ISA membership. Money is tight and we just became members about 2 weeks ago. If I go to Katie now and tell her "Honey, we need to cancel our ISA membership." Two things are gonna happen:

1. I'm gonna get my ass kicked by a girl.
   
2. Did I mention I'm gonna get my ass kicked by a girl!
   

Out of curiosity, why did you join?