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Did anyone ever get the real scoop of why the costs went up....over half quarterly?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Did anyone ever get the real scoop of why the costs went up....over half quarterly?

Half? Last year for me, the quarterly inspection was $180, this year it's $400. That's a 225% increase. I say that the increase is unreasonable because UL can't give a reason for it. Gas didn't go up that much.

Maybe the increase will give some other NRTL the incentive to list signs and perform the state required quarterly inspections. At this time, I couldn't find anybody else that does it in Washington State, otherwise I'd be done with UL.

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The increase plus our inspector informed us that we must now provide them with the measuring tools they need for the inspections. Micrometers, dial calipers, calabrated weight, tape measure,etc. and have them certified every year. This is around $600 for these items plus the cost to have them sent off and calabrated each year.....

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The increase plus our inspector informed us that we must now provide them with the measuring tools they need for the inspections. Micrometers, dial calipers, calabrated weight, tape measure,etc. and have them certified every year. This is around $600 for these items plus the cost to have them sent off and calabrated each year.....

WHAT??!?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!?!?!

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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WHAT??!?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!?!?!

Not kidding at all......... Our inspector was here yesterday and informed me of this. Said he will be back in July and that we should have them by then

is this crazy or what !!!!!!!

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I complained to U/L and they said the increase was due to "GLOBAL UNIFICATION" What the F is that. What a joke. Also to have a 20lb weight and dial caliper certified each year is another joke. There is a company Micro Quality Calibration 818 701-4969 they are in Southern California. They are very reasonable. U/L SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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"Global Unification" is what I was told as well. Basically they are charging every company, no matter what their size, the same inspection rate. Did they also inform you that a "Variation Notice" now carries a $500.00 fine EACH time on top of the $400.00 inspection fee?

Hey ... How else are they going to pay for those nice new wireless laptops they are all carrying around.

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We did an analysis and found that with the new UL charges to do site surveys and periodic reviews of manufacturing plants in China was climbing dramatically. We found that building products in the USA would be ultimately lower cost if you factor these costs in.

In a conversation with Jim Richards from UL recently he explained a lot of the above - I asked him to post a detailed reply to all on this subject.

FYI - cost to UL Recognize a power supply device has gone up almost 200% as well. Very high.

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There are 2 concerns that have been expressed. I deal with the technical side of things, so I can only provide limited information on what is going on.

Equipment and calibration -

Product safety has become a global issue. This involves the need for third party testing labs to be internationally and nationally accredited. Accredition is important because without it, the mark of a third party testing lab such as UL is not acceptted. UL has always been accredited, but with the number of labs worldwide, more equipment documentation and calibration is being required to make sure that the results of testing and measuring are correct. Therefore, UL is being required to calibrate regularly all test equipment used to determine compliance. The requirement for equipment calibration is across the board for all industries.

UL made it easier for the sign industry by allowing in-shop testing and measuring, versus sending the signs in to UL for testing. However, with this convenience comes the need for the sign industry to maintain the equipment they use for testing and measuring. Accreditation is not on a spot basis such that UL can say to the accreditors, the sign industry is not as global so they do not need to comply. The requirement is to make sure the that test equipment is accurate andnot an unreliable knock off piece of equipment.

The cost increase is as I understand it to cover the expense for Field Sevices staff to be trained and to spend more time at the sign shop. Many of you probably have seen that Field Services is spending more time in your facillities. The extra time is for the purpose of stopping what some manufacturers who are cutting corners selling Listing Marks and other activities that make it more difficult fo the sign industry as a whole to be cost competitive from shop to shop. In the future, UL is also looking to providing better sign shop staff training. As noted above, I was not involved with the decision for the cost increases. I am sure there are number of reasons behind this across the board increase that has not been shared with me. What other industry do you know of makes house calls for only $188 or even $400.

**** - 2010

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There are 2 concerns that have been expressed. I deal with the technical side of things, so I can only provide limited information on what is going on.

Equipment and calibration -

Product safety has become a global issue. This involves the need for third party testing labs to be internationally and nationally accredited. Accredition is important because without it, the mark of a third party testing lab such as UL is not acceptted. UL has always been accredited, but with the number of labs worldwide, more equipment documentation and calibration is being required to make sure that the results of testing and measuring are correct. Therefore, UL is being required to calibrate regularly all test equipment used to determine compliance. The requirement for equipment calibration is across the board for all industries.

UL made it easier for the sign industry by allowing in-shop testing and measuring, versus sending the signs in to UL for testing. However, with this convenience comes the need for the sign industry to maintain the equipment they use for testing and measuring. Accreditation is not on a spot basis such that UL can say to the accreditors, the sign industry is not as global so they do not need to comply. The requirement is to make sure the that test equipment is accurate andnot an unreliable knock off piece of equipment.

The cost increase is as I understand it to cover the expense for Field Sevices staff to be trained and to spend more time at the sign shop. Many of you probably have seen that Field Services is spending more time in your facillities. The extra time is for the purpose of stopping what some manufacturers who are cutting corners selling Listing Marks and other activities that make it more difficult fo the sign industry as a whole to be cost competitive from shop to shop. In the future, UL is also looking to providing better sign shop staff training. As noted above, I was not involved with the decision for the cost increases. I am sure there are number of reasons behind this across the board increase that has not been shared with me. What other industry do you know of makes house calls for only $188 or even $400.

Here in Las Vegas there are a lot interesting house calls that can be arranged for the numbers you mentioned...hahaha.

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I don't mean to nitpick here, but how involved can the sign industry really be with equipment calibration. We're spacing wires, power supplies, neon and measuring thickness's of aluminum for our letters and cabinets? Were not really working in 1000ths of an inch too often

I know how a little unique our industry is after talking to a few other Listing agency's who are moving more into the sign industry on how our shops are able to make custom build products to no set specifications that always varies and without having to send them in to a Listing Company to verify like a spa manufacturer.

But a jump from $188 to $400 is a HUGE jump. The house call you ask who would do for that small charge? I don't know what you charge other industries that the reps visit daily beside mine, but from my conversation with him and the number of visits he makes that day beside my shop, that's gotta be racking up some bucks. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a socialist and not saying UL shouldn't make money either. It's just the HUGE increase that has me, maybe if there would have been a massage period :P over the years to get us to the new number.

Sorry, my post is going to be more of a gripe and rant than anything. I'm one of those who's sole business is not built on 100% electric sign production.

But hey, that's the free market right?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Here in Las Vegas there are a lot interesting house calls that can be arranged for the numbers you mentioned...hahaha.

But at least you will have a smile on your face after that house call! :lol_hitting:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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As to the timing of the cost increase, yes it is pretty dramatic and if it had been my choice, the increase would have been phased in gradually over a couple years.

I agree that the many in the sign industry do not get down to the 1000th of an inch. Most of the time the minimum enclosure thickness is much less than sign manufacturers structurally need to use so the thickness is not exactly as critical as it seems. However, there are some who use the absolute minimum thickness specified in the standard. Even if you do not go down to the minimum, accreditors want to know precisely what went out the door in case there is a field problem. This need for all of the details such as calibrated equipment is not easy for me either. I have been with UL for 33 plus years and have seen UL go from little documentation to a lot of documentation. It forces me to try to stay flexible in my older age.

**** - 2010

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This is a perfect example of how UL works. It just don't make since. I don't have a problem with testing equipment. Making every shop purchase and maintain them just is not logical. It make more since to hit all of the shops in the area with a service fee and split the cost among all of them have the inspector tote them to all shops. He would then be insured that they are compliant. It would cut the time and money wasted trying to ensure multiple set of tools and equipment are certified.

I do believe that training is UL’s biggest downfall. We recently had our very knowable inspector retire. They sent two in from out of the area and both of them tried to give us a VN. We all know that means $500 luckily I have all of the documentation to prove that they don’t know their job and they withdrew the Variation Notices. It OK for them to be wrong they don’t care its not costing them money. It’s costing us. Increases to $400 is nothing to how they are gouging the sign industry with other tactics. Example would be we used to place a section sticker on each letter. We now have to place an individual sticker on each letter that is self contained. No big deal except that if you have a customer that has 15 letters in the sign as we do UL used to count that as one sign. Now it counted as 15 meaning that if you build 4 signs for that customer you will be logging 60 signs and the maximum amount of visit and possible VN’s for that quarter. That is the reasoning—business income.

We all in the sign business need to have a UL question and answer section just to protects us from UL and there poorly trained inspectors. Some place that we can go to get the correct answers from a co-op of trained professionals because its clear that they don’t know and it costing us.

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We all in the sign business need to have a UL question and answer section just to protects us from UL and there poorly trained inspectors. Some place that we can go to get the correct answers from a co-op of trained professionals because its clear that they don’t know and it costing us.

That's one of the purposes of this board. I'm sure the're enough people here to answer any questions about the U.L. Standard and in some good detail.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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We suppose we have a very odd perspective on UL. We see them as tremendous value. In fact just yesterday a company that makes decorative lighting for a restaurant chain said that his customer was pushing him to get each fixture UL listed and it would cost him a fortune. I suggested him to contact Jim Richards at UL and get some alternative means of meeting his customer's needs. He did and he did get a way to cut cost dramatically.

We have found that you just have to figure out how to use the increase in fees to the best of your ability.

Had a discussion with them yesterday and together with a National Home Builder we came up with a way of reducing our manufacturing cost yet another 30-40%.

Just our approach - but then again some ex-Permlight employee may jump on the board under an anonymous alias and blast me again.

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I am not going to try to convince anyone that the way the cost increases have been presented was anything but poor to a failure. Equally, the timing was terrible. It is unfortunate that all of these costs converged at the same time. I was equally shock when I found out.

As a side note on the inspection fee, I know that this has been building for many years. The fee being charged to UL clients I understand, has not kept up with increasing costs over the last several years. Many might only see the increased cost of gas. However, all costs are going up including vehicles, food and it seems everything else these days. Since the Field Rep. is on the road all day, all of these expenses need to be covered along with their salary. Also, in a lot of ways costs have increased a little bit at a time on a more subtle daily basis. However, Inspection Fees are set once a year so it comes at you all at once. Compare the cost of a pizza between last year and this year. It is significant.

As to the financial people in UL, when I asked how could they have made such a large increase, their answer is that the increase to the client is not as big as seen on the surface. With a $1060 annual maintenance fee and 4 $188 inspection fees the annual cost, not counting Listing Marks, is $1812 and now the annual cost is $1060 plus $1600 for a total of $2660. Therefore, they say comparing the yearly cost of $1812 to $2660 is a significant increase, but not as much as everyone thinks.

Myself, I am technical only and want to keep it that way. I only provide these cost responses to provide as much as an explanation I can get from people in UL. Remember to not kill the messenger.

**** - 2010

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Regarding the inspection frequency being tied to the number of Listing Marks used, I am providing the Inspection Frequency instructions for signs. You will note that it identifies that all of the Sections of a Section Sign are collectively considered to be one sign. If however, a signle letter such as an "M" for McDonalds is a stand alone sign, then it counts as one sign.

One inspection

Applies to signs produced in lots of less than 50 units as follows. For section signs consisting of two or more sections that are not self-contained signs, all sections are to be considered as one unit. For letters or blocks of letters that are a self-contained sign, each one is to be considered a unit. For all other self-contained signs (e.g. neon window signs and menu boards) where 50 or more units possess a common construction that, except for sign face art work, are exactly the same (including size, shape and components used), the lots can be inspected once per quarter.

In conclusion, additional inspections would not be triggered by 3 Section Signs as they would only be considered to be a total of only 3 signs. Also note that should you produce the same sign over and over again, such as an "OPEN" sign, even though you might make them by the thousands, they only need to be inspected once a quarter.

**** - 2010

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Well, I heard the "Global Unification" thing also. Who charges less than ($150) for "house calls"? How about computer technicians... the cable people.... phone companies ... US! We only charge $92 per hour for our service truck. Guess we should bump that up.

And as for providing UL with measuring tools, hmmm. The local L&I office (electrical inspectors for Washington State) frequently has us meet them at a job site so they can use our ladder to access the sign.... I guess we just gotta grimace and bear it. We are over a barrel!

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Well, I heard the "Global Unification" thing also. Who charges less than ($150) for "house calls"? How about computer technicians... the cable people.... phone companies ... US! We only charge $92 per hour for our service truck. Guess we should bump that up.

And as for providing UL with measuring tools, hmmm. The local L&I office (electrical inspectors for Washington State) frequently has us meet them at a job site so they can use our ladder to access the sign.... I guess we just gotta grimace and bear it. We are over a barrel!

After thinking about "costs of doing business" and U.L.'s own rise in costs and long awaited announcement to do so in this thread. I started to ask myself when the last time I raised my costs?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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