Mercury - Neon, CCFL and Fluorescent

[manuellynch]

The amount of mercury in products seems to be something customers are oddly "consumed" with these days.

If we were to take a 4 foot long tube of white neon vs same length T8 fluorescent vs same length CCFL...what is the mercury loading difference?

Would like some first hand experience/knowledge and a discussion on this.

And PLEASE - no discussion of LED on this thread.

Personally I am much more interested how CCFL and neon can sometimes be misunderstood versus fluorescent.

And as we have all agreed on several previous threads - every light source has a sweet spot/or best application.

[imanut]

Just a couple quick notes---

Misunderstood is probably an understatement. "Most" neon people haven't a clue how much mercury is / should be in a neon tube. "Most" benders just "guess and by golly" the amount based on supposed experience.

Many fl people, including recyclers, claim that there is NO elemental mercury in fl tubes-----that its only mercury vapor????

And many people don't have a clear understanding what a CCFL is, nor the difference between that and a CFL.

Now, with that being said ------------ let the discussion begin.

gn

[Erik Sine]

We had to get that small print out of the way first :mebeer:

[imanut]

_{Just a couple quick notes---}

_{Misunderstood is probably an understatement. "Most" neon people haven't a clue how much mercury is / should be in a neon tube. "Most" benders just "guess and by golly" the amount based on supposed experience.}

_{Many fl people, including recyclers, claim that there is NO elemental mercury in fl tubes-----that its only mercury vapor????}

_{And many people don't have a clear understanding what a CCFL is, nor the difference between that and a CFL.}

_{Now, with that being said ------------ let the discussion begin.}

_gn

Edited May 29, 2008 by Gary Nutting

[Brian]

Gary please explain the differences ccfl / cfl

Thanks!

[imanut]

Gary please explain the differences ccfl / cfl

Thanks!

A letter "c" --------------

Seriously-------CCFL is a cold cathode fluroescent lamp.

CFL is a compact fluroescent lamp.

[manuellynch]

A letter "c" --------------

Seriously-------CCFL is a cold cathode fluroescent lamp.

CFL is a compact fluroescent lamp.

Cold Cathode Fluorescent uses much higher voltage and lower current to excite the mercury amalgam. CFL or Compact Fluorescent is also known as Hot Cathode Fluorescent. Higher current that "heats" the cathodes along with lower voltage is used to excite the mercury amalgam. CFL usually has rated lifetimes of 8-10K hours. CCFL typically has lifetime of 25-50K hours.

I think of CCFL has an extremely energy efficient neon in that voltages are higher than CFL (usually about 1700V to strike or start lamp).

[Erik Sine]

ccfl is the only alternative I'd light my house up other than incandescents

[manuellynch]

ccfl is the only alternative I'd light my house up other than incandescents

Ahh yes, much higher CRI, dimmable, and longer lifetime. I will tell Garret today when we are at LightFair - he will like that.

But - what about the mercury levels????

[Erik Sine]

He's not with you yet?

Tell him I'd rather light my house up with LED's

From my understanding CCFL's have trace amounts of merc that are under the standards of what a cfl has.

I think these can go directly in the trash, or the classification of universal waste on these babies is different. Correct me if I'm wrong

[manuellynch]

He's not with you yet?

Tell him I'd rather light my house up with LED's

From my understanding CCFL's have trace amounts of merc that are under the standards of what a cfl has.

I think these can go directly in the trash, or the classification of universal waste on these babies is different. Correct me if I'm wrong

I am stopping by the EPA today to ask that exact question. But yes, CCFL has about 1/2 the mercury of CFL. I want to know what neon has comparitively.

[imanut]

I am stopping by the EPA today to ask that exact question. But yes, CCFL has about 1/2 the mercury of CFL. I want to know what neon has comparitively.

Alot more -----------thus the discussion. But then, by definition, it makes NO difference the amount. "De Minimus" standards, mandated by the state, feds, etc, state that there either "is" or "isn't" any mercury. If there is ANY mercury-------its either hazardous, or universal waste----and the rules are the same.

gn

Edited May 29, 2008 by Gary Nutting

[YYZ]

I will tell Garret today when we are at LightFair - he will like that.

I heard you were going to be there, but I attended Wednesday only. I went straight to Vegas after a marathon week in China and skipped going back Thursday. I had a morning meeting regarding a local project and then took off for the Hoover Dam... I liked my rental car so much that I just kept driving. There are some nice straightaways along that very scenic stretch of highway ;)

What did you think of the show?

[garettc]

In short, "neon sign" mercury lamps need at least 50 mg of Hg, and usually get two to three times that. Claims that less can be used are in dispute, as long-term mercury is consumed or sequestered. IMO there are going to be a lot of Eurocom Hg+ electroded tubes that will be quite dim in the future as this takes place.

The problem with the sign industry low pressure mercury tube is that there is absolutely no effort made to optimize Hg vapor pressure. At 30 mA magnetic, my data shows that 9mm is optimal, with efficacy decreasing as diameter rises. OF course there is a lot more to it than that, factors like ambient temp and gas composition and pressure also play key roles to be certain.

I am seriously considering eliminating 15mm as an option for mercury tubes. Maybe even 13mm....

But what I wonder about is, the true measure (from an environmental standpoint) should be mg of Hg/watt, right?

[manuellynch]

I heard you were going to be there, but I attended Wednesday only. I went straight to Vegas after a marathon week in China and skipped going back Thursday. I had a morning meeting regarding a local project and then took off for the Hoover Dam... I liked my rental car so much that I just kept driving. There are some nice straightaways along that very scenic stretch of highway ;)

What did you think of the show?

I thought the show was nothing special. I heard you were there from a booth you stopped by...PowerBox.

[manuellynch]

In short, "neon sign" mercury lamps need at least 50 mg of Hg, and usually get two to three times that. Claims that less can be used are in dispute, as long-term mercury is consumed or sequestered. IMO there are going to be a lot of Eurocom Hg+ electroded tubes that will be quite dim in the future as this takes place.

The problem with the sign industry low pressure mercury tube is that there is absolutely no effort made to optimize Hg vapor pressure. At 30 mA magnetic, my data shows that 9mm is optimal, with efficacy decreasing as diameter rises. OF course there is a lot more to it than that, factors like ambient temp and gas composition and pressure also play key roles to be certain.

I am seriously considering eliminating 15mm as an option for mercury tubes. Maybe even 13mm....

But what I wonder about is, the true measure (from an environmental standpoint) should be mg of Hg/watt, right?

I think that is a great idea - I wonder if UL has a means of putting together a way of measuring this for companies so you can certify the amount. The guy that you and I met with at the show said his bulb had 1mg. WHo verifies this?

[TelfordDorr]

But what I wonder about is, the true measure (from an environmental standpoint) should be mg of Hg/watt, right?

Maybe mg(Hg) / lumen?

[imanut]

I think that is a great idea - I wonder if UL has a means of putting together a way of measuring this for companies so you can certify the amount. The guy that you and I met with at the show said his bulb had 1mg. WHo verifies this?

1mg in a neon tube???? Seriously doubt that--------

gn

[garettc]

1mg in a neon tube???? Seriously doubt that--------

gn

There is one CFL manufacturer that is claiming that, and also claiming that it is independently verified. Consider1ng that Pyhilips makes a T-8 that uses 1.7 mg, It is not impossible.

For CCFL or "sign CCFLs" it is not nearly enough, as you say. The tubes operate to cold and there are too many cold spots where mercury can condense. Recently I have noticed a lot of the Denny's border tubes have a lot of dim spots--I think these are Eurocom Hg+ but I am not 100% certain of that.

[manuellynch]

1mg in a neon tube???? Seriously doubt that--------

gn

It was a compact fluorescent bulb - only 13 watts.

[MasonliteUSA]

If I may add my 2 cents into this as I work at a plant that manufatures all types of fluorescents, specialty fluorescents and CCFl lamps. On the CCFL lamps in diameters from 2mm - 8mm, the lamps use a neon/argon gas mix with a gas pressure of aroung 50 - 60torr and only a few mg of mercury. the smaller the diameter and the longer the length greatly increases the lamp starting/ignition voltage. The highest is usually around 1200 volts and that is on a 2mm X 500mm lamp. Once the lamp strikes the operating voltage on the same lamp will drop to around 800 volts. The CCFL lamps use a very high voltage but a extremly low current, current levels are usually anywhere from 5 - 8mA. They are extremly efficent and if the lamps are driven properly the lifetine is up over 30,000+ hours. Also the phosphor used on the mini lamps (at least the ones we manufacture) use a Tri-band phosphor which is a red green blue mix. We have over 150+ differnt blents that we can use on these lamps. I know that sounds a bit crazy but the reason behind this is due to the LCD flat monitors are all differnt. If you pull a OEM lamp out and do not match it, it can throw the color of the dispaly way off, this is extremly important for us in Avionics applications.

On T5, T8, & T12 lamps there is ~20 mg of mercury in them. On compact lamps, there are nothing more than a smaller designed fluorescent lamp that operates in the same manor as a T5-T8-T12 type of lamp. There are differnt methods for these lamps, such as rapid starting, instant starting, and filiament preheat. This is all depending on application and ballast.

Sorry for the boring post but if it helps one person that it worked. If there are any questions you guys every have please dont hesitate to ask. If you want to see some of the applications that these products go into vist our website at http://lcdl.com not sure if you are allowed to post websites so sorry if that broke any rules.

Jeremy

Edited June 13, 2008 by Westcoast Sign Guy
Make url Clickable

[manuellynch]

If I may add my 2 cents into this as I work at a plant that manufatures all types of fluorescents, specialty fluorescents and CCFl lamps. On the CCFL lamps in diameters from 2mm - 8mm, the lamps use a neon/argon gas mix with a gas pressure of aroung 50 - 60torr and only a few mg of mercury. the smaller the diameter and the longer the length greatly increases the lamp starting/ignition voltage. The highest is usually around 1200 volts and that is on a 2mm X 500mm lamp. Once the lamp strikes the operating voltage on the same lamp will drop to around 800 volts. The CCFL lamps use a very high voltage but a extremly low current, current levels are usually anywhere from 5 - 8mA. They are extremly efficent and if the lamps are driven properly the lifetine is up over 30,000+ hours. Also the phosphor used on the mini lamps (at least the ones we manufacture) use a Tri-band phosphor which is a red green blue mix. We have over 150+ differnt blents that we can use on these lamps. I know that sounds a bit crazy but the reason behind this is due to the LCD flat monitors are all differnt. If you pull a OEM lamp out and do not match it, it can throw the color of the dispaly way off, this is extremly important for us in Avionics applications.

On T5, T8, & T12 lamps there is ~20 mg of mercury in them. On compact lamps, there are nothing more than a smaller designed fluorescent lamp that operates in the same manor as a T5-T8-T12 type of lamp. There are differnt methods for these lamps, such as rapid starting, instant starting, and filiament preheat. This is all depending on application and ballast.

Sorry for the boring post but if it helps one person that it worked. If there are any questions you guys every have please dont hesitate to ask. If you want to see some of the applications that these products go into vist our website at www.lcdl.com not sure if you are allowed to post websites so sorry if that broke any rules.

Jeremy

THank you so much for your reply. Great website. Good source for future projects. I use to work at Microsemi Corp, we were the company that made and patented the CCFL inverter chips for avionics, laptop, in car navigation etc and you are right about lifetime and efficacy.

[MasonliteUSA]

THank you so much for your reply. Great website. Good source for future projects. I use to work at Microsemi Corp, we were the company that made and patented the CCFL inverter chips for avionics, laptop, in car navigation etc and you are right about lifetime and efficacy.

No problem. Just figured if I can help a little I would.