DO NOT DO WORK FOR Pat & Oscars / Chain Restaurant Solutuons

[Erik Sine]

I've been trying to collect a simple invoice for $262.44 for the over 5 months +

This is a small invoice but I was on the roll to doing more work and much larger size jobs. Glad I didn't, after speaking to someone who has been dodging me at corporate I was finally giving his cell number after much reluctance. I called him and he actually picked up the phone, a rarity compared to his direct line. After speaking with him, he told me that he has to use his words wisely and tell me that they are VERY behind in payments with all of their vendors. He told me that they are "Selectively" paying who they need to first.

He passed on the number to the CFO, When I called the CFO who is Brent Duncan, his mailbox is full

*******BE WARNED********

I would also not advise taking any jobs from Chain Restaurant Solutions, they are only a referrel service, and your direct billing is with the Customer. They will bug you to make repairs but not try and help you to get paid.

Chain Restaurant Solutions & HelpDesk

6201 South Gateway Drive

Marion, Iowa 52302

Phone: (319) 447-3524

Email: mfaber@chainrs.com

http://chainrestaurantsolutions.com/

I need to seriously come up with a simple and legitimate database for this that stretches out to all Electric Sign Associations

[Brian]

THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP!!!

WE SHOULD ALL LET EACH OTHER KNOW OF ANY MAINTENANCE COMPANIES THAT DO NOT PAY WELL

[bdmargison]

I had the same trouble with Fairmount Sign Company. I did some work for them and it took over a year to get paid. The bill was only $150.00 but it was the point of me doing the job. Finally I received it last week. The bill dated back to June of '07. Be aware!!

[mikeschuler]

Skippers Seafood and Skippers Fish & Chips is a bum pay. I run into this problem a lot with local non-franchise restaurants too. If I walked into the waffle house and ordered a $12.00 breakfast and then walked out the door without paying, they'd call the cops and I'd go right straight to jail at that moment, yet they can get $900 dollars worth of repairs on their POS 37 year old neon sign, and then mysteriously vanish after they agreed to pay as soon as the repairs were completed, and it's perfectly okay.

When an invoice has a birthday, I've gone out at 2:30 a.m. and removed the neon or disconnected the power to their signs. Sometimes, all you have to do is turn off the switch on a sign that is 30 or 40 feet above elevation, and they suddenly find the money to pay their bill.

[manuellynch]

Skippers Seafood and Skippers Fish & Chips is a bum pay. I run into this problem a lot with local non-franchise restaurants too. If I walked into the waffle house and ordered a $12.00 breakfast and then walked out the door without paying, they'd call the cops and I'd go right straight to jail at that moment, yet they can get $900 dollars worth of repairs on their POS 37 year old neon sign, and then mysteriously vanish after they agreed to pay as soon as the repairs were completed, and it's perfectly okay.

When an invoice has a birthday, I've gone out at 2:30 a.m. and removed the neon or disconnected the power to their signs. Sometimes, all you have to do is turn off the switch on a sign that is 30 or 40 feet above elevation, and they suddenly find the money to pay their bill.

That is awesome...you might also try throwing up the $12 meal and say that "it didnt work out" - you wouldnt have to pay.

But your birthday concept is awesome.

Why cant you all ask to be prepaid - the credit crisis seems to have affected our whole nation.

[servant74]

That is awesome...you might also try throwing up the $12 meal and say that "it didnt work out" - you wouldnt have to pay.

But your birthday concept is awesome.

Why cant you all ask to be prepaid - the credit crisis seems to have affected our whole nation.

It does seem to be 'industry standard' to extend minimal credit to almost anyone. But I agree, it would be good.

In the 'old days', and I am sure some do it, many invoices are 2% discount if paid in 10 days, net 30 days, and a

2%/mo carrying charge on after 30 days.

The problem I remember having it people taking 30 days or more to pay and still taking the 2% for prompt payment as well.

Edited September 25, 2008 by servant74

[manuellynch]

It does seem to be 'industry standard' to extend minimal credit to almost anyone. But I agree, it would be good.

In the 'old days', and I am sure some do it, many invoices are 2% discount if paid in 10 days, net 30 days, and a

2%/mo carrying charge on after 30 days.

The problem I remember having it people taking 30 days or more to pay and still taking the 2% for prompt payment as well.

It is amazing what everyone saves if they pay upfront. Hell - if you pay your vendors upfront for the materials you can get the same discounts.

Extending credit to everyone hasnt seemed to work too well - there are a lot of people in Las Vegas that have lost their homes and their cars...some should have never even received credit. I met a guy the other day that was so proud that he has $185K in credit card debt that he was never going to pay...he spent it on cash advances for gambling...and yes, he lost it all...but now he gets "comped" everywhere....what a messed up system.

[mikeschuler]

The problem I remember having it people taking 30 days or more to pay and still taking the 2% for prompt payment as well.

I used to put "NET 30" on my service call invoices until I heard a customer say "Oh good,... I don't have to pay for 30 days?" Now they all say "Due Upon Receipt" unless it's a regular customer that I have agreed to allow for NET 30.

On my contracts, just above where the customer signs their names it reads "In the event the Buyer fails to make the agreed upon payments, the Seller reserves the right to remove the sign installation."

On my letter that informs the delinquent customer of the day I plan to file the small claims lawsuit unless payment is received, I tell them that $2,000.00 will be added to the bill to cover my time for taking the court action. This does work. I've only been to small claims court 3 times, and each time they paid the full bill plus court costs before the court day.

Still though, I have a home loan center that is now 18 months over due on their bill. They still owe me about $975. The sign was installed in March of 2007. I sent the threatening letter in July 2008, and they offered to make $500 monthly payments (the original deal was for cash upon completion of the installation), so I didn't file. They said they would pay on the 15th of each month. I received a check August 15th, but nothing yet this month, and when I called them a couple of days ago, I got a recording wishing everybody a happy holiday season.

It's pretty bad when a place that sells home equity loans and reverse mortgages can't even make a lousy $500 a month sign payment. It gets frustrating, because I have bills to pay too, only I can't string my insurance company along for months without paying, nor anybody else for that matter. For some reason, business people think that the sign guy is so rich that they don't need to pay their bill, and they think the sign guy won't miss it.

[Erik Sine]

I have no problem adding more names to the front page list, I'm even going to send this list to all electrical sign associations, hopefully they will pass it along to all their members.

If you want me to add names of other Vendors, Corp, or Service Companies send me an invoice and make sure it's 90 days + with a description of details. I'd like to make this "Dead Beat Vendor" list much larger and readily available to all who might be thinking about performing work for these people.

my email admin@thesignsyndicate.com

[Brian]

I have no problem adding more names to the front page list, I'm even going to send this list to all electrical sign associations, hopefully they will pass it along to all their members.

If you want me to add names of other Vendors, Corp, or Service Companies send me an invoice and make sure it's 90 days + with a description of details. I'd like to make this "Dead Beat Vendor" list much larger and readily available to all who might be thinking about performing work for these people.

my email admin@thesignsyndicate.com

Great but I don't think it should have individual businesses on it just the bigger vendors and service brokers

[Checkers]

As much as I would like to see a blacklist of slow payers and/or bad accounts, its most likely illegal. From what I understand, publicly displaying blacklists of debtors was banned back in the 60's because it was considered public himiliation. Today, if you are caught sharing this information in a public forum, it can expose you to a potential lawsuit from the offender.

Perhaps if we didn't post it in a forum, however, set up a spreadsheet of offenders that would be shared with members on a weekly basis. I have no idea what we would need to include though.

Checkers

[Erik Sine]

Hmmmm good thought checkers.

I should probably check with my neighbor who is a lawyer, but one thing I have working in my favor is the fact that NO forum has ever been successfully sued, even by SONY after a High Component forum that expressed "Opinions" about their products as "Slander". I'd have to dig up the info but since a forum is opinions, it's just that. This is a post about my opinion backed up with fact. So far it's been past due since May. My front page listing is a list of similar threads, of high risk. As long as I have past due invoices emailed to it backs up claims with facts.

I'm pretty sure what I'm going to be doing here is legal, but I'll check just to be sure.

[Erik Sine]

Hmmmm good thought checkers.

I should probably check with my neighbor who is a lawyer, but one thing I have working in my favor is the fact that NO forum has ever been successfully sued, even by SONY after a High Component forum that expressed "Opinions" about their products as "Slander". I'd have to dig up the info but since a forum is opinions, it's just that. This is a post about my opinion backed up with fact. So far it's been past due since May. My front page listing is a list of similar threads, of high risk. As long as I have past due invoices emailed to it backs up claims with facts.

I'm pretty sure what I'm going to be doing here is legal, but I'll check just to be sure.

[manuellynch]

As much as I would like to see a blacklist of slow payers and/or bad accounts, its most likely illegal. From what I understand, publicly displaying blacklists of debtors was banned back in the 60's because it was considered public himiliation. Today, if you are caught sharing this information in a public forum, it can expose you to a potential lawsuit from the offender.

Perhaps if we didn't post it in a forum, however, set up a spreadsheet of offenders that would be shared with members on a weekly basis. I have no idea what we would need to include though.

Checkers

He is correct - I would stay away from this - could be a legal snafu.

[Erik Sine]

See what I am willing to do for you all! I'm willing to take the knife in the back for you, and I do it all out of love!

[craigboyce]

Maybe I just don't get this whole Sign Syndicate thing but it seems that there are only two people actively posting on any given day and it is always the same two people. And it seems obvious to me that they are both using the outlet to push and sell their own products or ideas, and promote their own interests. It is so like a paid advertisent where you don't really know that it is an ad (until you see the fine print that says "paid advertisement"). Maybe it's me or maybe some of the other readers feel the same way. It all seems too 'incestuous' to be taken seriously. Does all of this have to be done 'on-line'? Seems like this should all be done through private email corraboration. Who really benefits from all this 'chi-chat'. Yes, I realize that no one is forcing me to participate. I don't know think I can bear it much longer.

[Erik Sine]

Maybe I just don't get this whole Sign Syndicate thing but it seems that there are only two people actively posting on any given day and it is always the same two people. And it seems obvious to me that they are both using the outlet to push and sell their own products or ideas, and promote their own interests. It is so like a paid advertisent where you don't really know that it is an ad (until you see the fine print that says "paid advertisement"). Maybe it's me or maybe some of the other readers feel the same way. It all seems too 'incestuous' to be taken seriously. Does all of this have to be done 'on-line'? Seems like this should all be done through private email corraboration. Who really benefits from all this 'chi-chat'. Yes, I realize that no one is forcing me to participate. I don't know think I can bear it much longer.

You lost me there. What does this have to do with trying to get paid for a past due invoice?

[imanut]

You lost me there. What does this have to do with trying to get paid for a past due invoice?

Just another unenlightened guy that doesn't know the trade, nor the people--------------and has nothing to chime in with. In case he hasn't figured out-------its a swinging door------if he were to participate and actually say something constructive----------or add to an existing topic without jumping off to another tangent-----then perhaps the creative juices of others would flow and even MORE would participate.

Incestuous???? Now he really doesn't know sign people!

gn

[Brian]

See what I am willing to do for you all! I'm willing to take the knife in the back for you, and I do it all out of love!

These guys don't pay their bills they don't have the money to take on a lawsuit they can't win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Checkers]

Going off on a tangent caused by craig's post, maybe a blacklist email subscription would be a better option to inform each other of black listed companies.

I'm not an attorney, but I think it would cover our butts all the way around and keep the subscribers up to date.

Checkers

p.s. I don't post or participate here much because I don't manufacture electric signs in house. However, I am here to watch and learn from from what I would consider to be some very talented artists and business people.

[signestimators.com]

This always worked for me in all the years I was a builder:

50% down on all orders, no exceptions, even government!

50% cod on completion (not one day, not 10 days, you just have to call ahead your client and warned them that an installation or delivery is scheduled and that they need to have payment ready)

remember if a client is not willing to pay a deposit, may not be willing to pay at all.

if you absolutely need to give someone an account, ask for the first 3 purchases pre-paid

5% discount on pre-paid orders worked great as well

Steve

http://www.signestimators.com/

[mikeschuler]

I always get a 50% deposit. My contracts almost always require complete payment upon completion of the installation. Sometimes, I will let them pay the balance in 12 monthly payments. My contracts say "In the event that the Buyer fails to make the agreed upon payments, the Seller reserves the right to remove the sign installation."

Every once in awhile, I still get burned, like I did on 10/02/2008 by a jerk named Chris Yoo who owns an Econo Lodge motel and was desperate for a sign. For some reason he can't understand that there are city zoning laws that govern the size, number, and placement of signs. In his zone, he is only allowed one sign on his building. Two days before we did the installation, he was demanding that we put the sign up that day. He wouldn't understand that the sign was still being manufactured. Then he demanded that we raise the parapet sign up, so that the letters would stick up above the roof line. We told him that that was illegal, and if we did that, the city inspector would red-tag it. Roof signs are outlawed, and no part of any sign can extend even one inch above a roof line, and they are very strict about this. When my technicians were installing the sign, he came out and told them to raise the sign up above the roof line. They told him again, that it just wasn't possible.

Now he refuses to pay because we wouldn't install a second, shipped in sign on his building without a permit (over $1,000 fine if you get caught). He needs to go to city hall and bitch at them about the sign restrictions. Refusing to pay me makes him a low-life rip-off dead beat. I know he owns other motels around the country, so think twice before working for this jerk. He is one of those problem customers that intends to not pay contractors by making up lame excuses and objections about the work done.

There is nothing illegal about having a black list of bad customers. http://www.angieslist.com/Angieslist/ is a black-list of bad contractors. Any customer can put you on that list if they want. Also, there are many websites like Travelocity, or Price Line dot com that let people give negative reviews of motels and restaurants, and that is essentially a black list.

Watch out for Chris Yoo, owner of Pacific Motel Development Corporation.

[Batch]

When my father had his business we always tried collected 50% before starting any work and the balance including permitting fees at the time of completion of the installation. We would call the day before the installation to make sure that their was no problems with our installing the sign that day as well as to inform them of the total balance due and that a check would be required. We also asked who the installer should give the invoice to and get the check from at the location. When we got to the job site we would go to the person and give them the invoice telling this was the total due upon completion today and ask if they had a check for that amount ready. Also in the event that they were not at the location when we finished, who would they be leaving the check with?

This was a pretty good system and you could read who had the money and was wiling to pay. Who could pay but the money was tight and who didn't have the money to pay...

We did not wait a year for repossessing signs. My Dad tried to work with people. But, if the guy kept going back on their word about payment several times. Then I would visit after their hours and remove parts of the sign that were needed. Say a handful of channel letter faces and a couple of neon units. In Florida if the store owner sees on his property and calls the police they will make us leave. Even though the contract we had said that we had the right to enter the property to recover our property (he hasn't paid for it yet) it is still trespassing and they view ownership as a civil matter. But, if the owner or tenant of property tells you to leave and you don't then you are trespassing.

Another tool is a contractor lean. This is the way to handle accounts that are bigger and can demand terms. Sometimes you have to give them 30 days or more to get the job. Always file a notice of commencement and make sure you file a contractors lean within the allotted time. If they complain and they will most of the time when the property owner finds out about the lien, you just have to tell them that you have no choice under the law but to file the lien now. Its your states rules and not yours and if you didn't file under their terms you would not be able to do so in the event that a customer who you have extended credit to did not pay you. It has nothing to do with them and is just state law and company policy and you will give them a release of lean immediately after payment in full.

You are giving your customer an interest free loan when you give them terms. The other thing we did at another company was have them submit an application for credit. Though I think our book keeper would just call a couple of their references.

My Father lost $50,000 from one customer who he should of been able to collect on. But, felt that the guys was being sued by too many contractors already. If he would have followed the steps with that builder he would have gotten the money.

We also had Nations Rent decide to switch all of its contractors and suppliers from 30 days to 90 days. Which prevented us from receiving over $200,000 in balances from completed jobs. Think about the interest they would pay if they were doing this to every contractor and supplier and had to borrow that amount from a bank for that period of time. They did pay the full balance but drug it out of a many months and with the other jobs that became due with them over that period of time They really hurt us financially. As well as straining the relationship we had with suppliers.

[manuellynch]

When my father had his business we always tried collected 50% before starting any work and the balance including permitting fees at the time of completion of the installation. We would call the day before the installation to make sure that their was no problems with our installing the sign that day as well as to inform them of the total balance due and that a check would be required. We also asked who the installer should give the invoice to and get the check from at the location. When we got to the job site we would go to the person and give them the invoice telling this was the total due upon completion today and ask if they had a check for that amount ready. Also in the event that they were not at the location when we finished, who would they be leaving the check with?

This was a pretty good system and you could read who had the money and was wiling to pay. Who could pay but the money was tight and who didn't have the money to pay...

We did not wait a year for repossessing signs. My Dad tried to work with people. But, if the guy kept going back on their word about payment several times. Then I would visit after their hours and remove parts of the sign that were needed. Say a handful of channel letter faces and a couple of neon units. In Florida if the store owner sees on his property and calls the police they will make us leave. Even though the contract we had said that we had the right to enter the property to recover our property (he hasn't paid for it yet) it is still trespassing and they view ownership as a civil matter. But, if the owner or tenant of property tells you to leave and you don't then you are trespassing.

Another tool is a contractor lean. This is the way to handle accounts that are bigger and can demand terms. Sometimes you have to give them 30 days or more to get the job. Always file a notice of commencement and make sure you file a contractors lean within the allotted time. If they complain and they will most of the time when the property owner finds out about the lien, you just have to tell them that you have no choice under the law but to file the lien now. Its your states rules and not yours and if you didn't file under their terms you would not be able to do so in the event that a customer who you have extended credit to did not pay you. It has nothing to do with them and is just state law and company policy and you will give them a release of lean immediately after payment in full.

You are giving your customer an interest free loan when you give them terms. The other thing we did at another company was have them submit an application for credit. Though I think our book keeper would just call a couple of their references.

My Father lost $50,000 from one customer who he should of been able to collect on. But, felt that the guys was being sued by too many contractors already. If he would have followed the steps with that builder he would have gotten the money.

We also had Nations Rent decide to switch all of its contractors and suppliers from 30 days to 90 days. Which prevented us from receiving over $200,000 in balances from completed jobs. Think about the interest they would pay if they were doing this to every contractor and supplier and had to borrow that amount from a bank for that period of time. They did pay the full balance but drug it out of a many months and with the other jobs that became due with them over that period of time They really hurt us financially. As well as straining the relationship we had with suppliers.

Thanks for sharing this.

It clearly shows that in the "old days" this country didnt rely so heavily on "credit". I am not sure people really evaluate how much less it really cost to purchase things upfront when work is done or products are purchased. Whenever I am brought in to do consulting for businesses I always recommend reduction of accounting functions and overhead by paying vendors in advance (get discounts) and attempt to get customers to pay in advance by offering prepay discounts. THese companies almost immediately had better cash flow and happier vendors. Hell - you can get vendors you prepay to do a lot more for you when you need them to.

I think you will see a lot more companies start abandoning credit terms in these shaky economic times.