Next Tutorial Project

[Erik Sine]

I'm announcing the starting stages of the next light comparison test for the Tutorial Section of the board which I want to do a little differently than The Great White Hope.

The comparison will be a double stroke Red illuminated letter.

This is the early stages of course and will be working on the exact details and scope.

[fishing nut]

Nice, Will this be with clear glass neon fill only?? We have a Designer color for red faces. We dont sell much but it is an Argon fill.

[YYZ]

Thing is pretty much everyone - even neon people - accept that Red LEDs are bright, cheap and compare well. A comparison of White is the most important, but maybe Blue and Green make more sense as follow up comparisons? Or because of the volume of Red signs in the market, is Red more important for the next test?

Additionally - as per Garett's comments in the previous thread - do you plan to somehow create a common denominator (ie: power, or brightness) to do a more scientific comparison? This, too, is more important (and quantifiable) with White.

[Erik Sine]

Thing is pretty much everyone - even neon people - accept that Red LEDs are bright, cheap and compare well. A comparison of White is the most important, but maybe Blue and Green make more sense as follow up comparisons? Or because of the volume of Red signs in the market, is Red more important for the next test?

Additionally - as per Garett's comments in the previous thread - do you plan to somehow create a common denominator (ie: power, or brightness) to do a more scientific comparison? This, too, is more important (and quantifiable) with White.

I wouldn't do green, I have thought long and hard on Red or Blue. Red seems to be a bigger market.

As to the common denominator, power or brightness. I need some more detail on that, but ultimately it's going to be on the sign manufacturer to pick, in a lot of ways there are a lot of ways and different products to choose from depending on the application. Personally for me, power consumption is not an issue or preference for me. I want consistency in brightness and the confidence that it will last a longtime.

As you may have seen in an example of power consumption averages I gave for a 15 letter sign for all products used, there isn't a huge dollar difference that I think would sway a client one way or the other based on that alone. But then, I'm only human.

[manuellynch]

I agree with YYZ on this one - not a lot of value to do this. We will participate but I doubt there will be much interest.

I would think a tutorial on different color temperatures of white may be better.

[Erik Sine]

I'm not all about all about Neon vs. LED. I was thinking more of product evaluation. But, maybe blue would be a better choice.

I did like the name "Red Light District", what now, Blue Light Special?

[manuellynch]

I'm not all about all about Neon vs. LED. I was thinking more of product evaluation. But, maybe blue would be a better choice.

I did like the name "Red Light District", what now, Blue Light Special?

I think a tutorial on blue would be good/great actually. But on blue I would educate people on visual acuity issues associated with direct view at long distance versus peripheral view - there is a reason why emergency vehicles are red and blue lights. Did you know that the human eye is blind to blue light on direct view?

Blue Light Special...no...you might have to pay someone to use their phrase...like did you know that Happy Birthday song is owned by someone?

[Erik Sine]

I think a tutorial on blue would be good/great actually. But on blue I would educate people on visual acuity issues associated with direct view at long distance versus peripheral view - there is a reason why emergency vehicles are red and blue lights. Did you know that the human eye is blind to blue light on direct view?

Blue Light Special...no...you might have to pay someone to use their phrase...like did you know that Happy Birthday song is owned by someone?

I thought Kmart was gone? I wouldn't call my project a low budget name anyway, I'll think of something clever, and dirty of course.

Did I tell you I'm color blind? I have a hard time with colors, and I'm in the sign biz But don't tell anyone that.

[SE Sign Guy]

I thought Kmart was gone? I wouldn't call my project a low budget name anyway, I'll think of something clever, and dirty of course.

Did I tell you I'm color blind? I have a hard time with colors, and I'm in the sign biz But don't tell anyone that.

I actually think red is a good study due to the massive use of red within the industry. But, I think this study may best serve the site and the public by not only comparing brightness and coverage but also by realistically looking in to the cost of red LED vs. Neon.

Again, the short and long term costs should be taken in to consideration.

In the traditional sign industry, most of us try to talk clients out of utilizing blue neon and blue acrylic faces because the letters blend together, signs become hard to read and the lack of brightness makes the signs less noticeable during nighttime hours.

I typically encourage those who want "blue" as a main color for channel letters to utilize white faces with a first-surface blue vinyl overlay and to maintain a white border around the entire letter to allow for some contrast at night.

On the flip side, exposed blue neon or blue neon/LED as cove or accent lighting is a different subject altogether. It's eye-catching and soothing. That said, border/exposed neon and cove lighting is just too minimal to consider worthy of such a case study.

So, there's my THREE cents worth.

I'll participate with whatever color you decide to roll with.

Thanks again for this forum and opportunity to express my thought.

SE Sign Guy

[manuellynch]

We are one of the main suppliers of Blue LED on Chevron conversion - we have a lot of experience in blue. We also do some major national automotive programs in blue.

[YYZ]

There are merits to comparing both, actually.

There is much more red in the industry and a "true cost" comparison is a good idea. I don't think a simple 8" x 36" channel is enough, though. I think it would make sense - and I know this might take A LOT of time - but to build a letter, say a 36" X or something, and actually time how long it takes to assemble each of the products into the can. Then cost in all the hardware, tube supports, GTO, etc (to make it a an accurate cost analysis). You could then multiply x 10 or 15 or whatever (to extrapolate to a full sign project) and do the numbers that way.

It would actually be REALLY cool of you could recruit a retail chain to hire you to do this for them on their actual stores. Vendors could supply the product, the customer pays for the cans and labor (or maybe the cans already exist and you retrofit 10 locations)... then you do the "true" location to location comparison.

Blue is a trickier color for people to use, and not all companies make a great Blue product. This would be a great way for people to learn more about using Blue and also address the visual acuity issues that Tom and Manuel brought up, as they are real. Maybe red first (easier), then Blue once you've recruited more paying members to get into some of the more complex issues. Third could be the color comparison with White in terms of backlighting multicolor or printed images.

[Erik Sine]

I have a real nice blue that not that many sign builder's have used before. It looks like a dark blue during the day but lights up as a lighter blue. No fuzzy appearance at night, great definition.

But agree, most standard blue's are terrible. Some people here have some great suggestions for creating clear blue faces

[SE Sign Guy]

There are merits to comparing both, actually.

There is much more red in the industry and a "true cost" comparison is a good idea. I don't think a simple 8" x 36" channel is enough, though. I think it would make sense - and I know this might take A LOT of time - but to build a letter, say a 36" X or something, and actually time how long it takes to assemble each of the products into the can. Then cost in all the hardware, tube supports, GTO, etc (to make it a an accurate cost analysis). You could then multiply x 10 or 15 or whatever (to extrapolate to a full sign project) and do the numbers that way.

It would actually be REALLY cool of you could recruit a retail chain to hire you to do this for them on their actual stores. Vendors could supply the product, the customer pays for the cans and labor (or maybe the cans already exist and you retrofit 10 locations)... then you do the "true" location to location comparison.

Blue is a trickier color for people to use, and not all companies make a great Blue product. This would be a great way for people to learn more about using Blue and also address the visual acuity issues that Tom and Manuel brought up, as they are real. Maybe red first (easier), then Blue once you've recruited more paying members to get into some of the more complex issues. Third could be the color comparison with White in terms of backlighting multicolor or printed images.

Well said YYZ. I think I could volunteer my other company, Kendal Signs, to manufacture, the letters and faces at something at or below cost. Those costs could be kept down if we were able to get various suppliers to be willing to provide materials for free or at discounted rates. Shipping would be relatively expensive from FL to CA but I am sure we could find a way to spread the shipping costs out among those wanting to participate.

I guess I will sum that up by saying Kendal Signs will do as much as we can to help things along if you decide to run with a channel letter application.

SE Sign Guy

[YYZ]

I have a real nice blue that not that many sign builder's have used before. It looks like a dark blue during the day but lights up as a lighter blue. No fuzzy appearance at night, great definition.

But agree, most standard blue's are terrible. Some people here have some great suggestions for creating clear blue faces

Really bright light sources with Blue faces can work well - like PetSmart uses - can work well. Thing is, you still get the fuzziness and difficulty of focus since the human eye just doesn't like Blue light against a dark sky.

We did a job recently where we supplied White LEDs as the light source behind a 3M Blue translucent vinyl. The sign shop was a buddy of mine and so we actually had all the cans in our shop to install the modules and based on our "stand back and see how it looks" test - it worked very well and it allowed for a much sharper definition to the letter. Less "haze" as it were.

Here is a pic taken with by Blackberry (not to derail this thread even further...) :

Edited November 6, 2008 by YYZ

[manuellynch]

Really bright light sources with Blue faces can work well - like PetSmart uses - can work well. Thing is, you still get the fuzziness and difficulty of focus since the human eye just doesn't like Blue light against a dark sky.

We did a job recently where we supplied White LEDs as the light source behind a 3M Blue translucent vinyl. The sign shop was a buddy of mine and so we actually had all the cans in our shop to install the modules and based on our "stand back and see how it looks" test - it worked very well and it allowed for a much sharper definition to the letter. Less "haze" as it were.

Here is a pic taken with by Blackberry (not to derail this thread even further...) :

We are seeing the same thing YYZ - a lot of customers are moving to using white instead of blue...except those that need the blue light for halo or wall wash.

[Brian]

I actually think red is a good study due to the massive use of red within the industry. But, I think this study may best serve the site and the public by not only comparing brightness and coverage but also by realistically looking in to the cost of red LED vs. Neon.

Again, the short and long term costs should be taken in to consideration.

In the traditional sign industry, most of us try to talk clients out of utilizing blue neon and blue acrylic faces because the letters blend together, signs become hard to read and the lack of brightness makes the signs less noticeable during nighttime hours.

I typically encourage those who want "blue" as a main color for channel letters to utilize white faces with a first-surface blue vinyl overlay and to maintain a white border around the entire letter to allow for some contrast at night.

On the flip side, exposed blue neon or blue neon/LED as cove or accent lighting is a different subject altogether. It's eye-catching and soothing. That said, border/exposed neon and cove lighting is just too minimal to consider worthy of such a case study.

So, there's my THREE cents worth.

I'll participate with whatever color you decide to roll with.

Thanks again for this forum and opportunity to express my thought.

SE Sign Guy

I totally agree

I can send countless pics of blue letters that you can't tell what they say when you get 20 feet from them

[garettc]

True that red LEDs are the best tech that LEDs have to offer. I think that the test might be worthwhile nonetheless.

Neon filled tubes can at best get about 40 lumens per watt. Although neon has the nice feature of having a positive lumen maintenance curve due to no phosphors to degrade and efficiency increasing as the gas is cleaned up, I think there are mercury phosphors that can give it a run for the money. Strontium magnesium phosphate emits a broad spectrum red and yields about 55 lumens per watt, and gadolinium pentaborate (e.g., EGL Flamingo) makes a narrower emission and is quite bright (I don't have lumen numbers on this one but I suspect it is in the same range.

Technolux has a "special red" for plex faces but it was just not bright next to neon-filled tubes.

What could be gained is a longer life tube as Hg lamps last longer because the failure mode is different. And just maybe a brighter sign, but that depends on the plex choice as well.

I do not have the gadolinium phosphor in stock, as it is made only in Germany and is very expensive due to the dollar weakness and skyroceting demand for gadolinium. But I do have the strontium magnesium phosphate. I would be willing to mix up a batch and submit a sample.

Nichia is no longer making the other red phosphor calcium silicate because it is lead-activated and they are going ROHS. Same for the powder blue, which is also lead-co-activated.

Green is where neon really shines, if the rare-earth green is used. Raw efficiency is about 135 lumens per watt and maintenance is very good.

One technique that can be used is adding a phosphor (sometimes a PDP phosphor) to the blend (pre-coating is best but a simple blend works fairly well) that absorbs the blue and green mercury lines and re-emits in a longer wavelength. (Masonlite was considering this before things went bad for them.) Years ago we used this technique developing a yellow lamp for traffic signals. Again it is an example of what can be done and is not.

Manuel and YYZ's obervations on blue light is true. The BAM blue we use has a raw efficacy of about 55 lumens per watt, though I do not know how that compares to LED blues. The technique that works the best is to use white neon, with blue vinyl over a white face. The outer edge is left white and helps define the letter and get rid of the bluryness.

I wonder what other colors neon could do better than LED?

Garett

[YYZ]

Red LEDs use different chemicals than the less stable Blue and White (which also use phosphors on top of Blue). Just like neon gas, they are much more robust in terms of performance and life expectancy. I would suspect that if either product is manufactured well and driven within limits, we might be old and grey before either of the products failed outright.

As for Blues and Greens, there are very good LED devices available, but considering the lower required volume of these products in the marketplace, few companies invest as much into making a quality product as they do (or think they do) with White. Additionally, the costs are pretty much in line with what White products cost so it is easier to recommend the use of White for these projects. I think Axiom and YYZ would once again perform at the top of the LED heap, as most other vendors only have a "mid range" product in those colors.

It's my understanding that colors such as Veep green depreciate more quickly than any other neon color, aside from purple. Green LEDs are actually quite bright also - typically 3-4 times as bright as their Blue counterparts - so this might be an interesting comparison also. Erik might as well make it a clan sweep of the "meat and potato" sign colors, one at a time.

That said - if a side-by-side cabinet such as the one used for Great White Hope is used for other colors - a single 4" or 5" stroke would be as equally representative of each product's performance, but possibly making the demo more cost effective and/or inclusive of more participants. Red especially, less so for Green and Blue where a cabinet identical to GWH would work just fine.

[garettc]

Veep green and green are basically the same. VEEP green has a ceramic filter that blocks the blue mercury lines, making it look more saturated. The zinc silicate phosphor is renowned for its terrible lumen maintenance. It is a fragile crystal and very susceptible to ion bombardment.

A simple barrier coating greatly enhances the maintenance and performance of this phosphor. I did a test of some Voltarc Green, and coated half of a full stick with the protective coating and left the other half as-is. Huge difference. I think I still have that lamp in a stash somewhere. Maybe I'll dig it out and fire ti up for some numbers.

Meanwhile, the rare earth green is a variant of the blue BAM (barium magnesium aluminate, europium activated). By changing the molar ratios of the ingredients a wide range of colors can be made with this phosphor. there is also a popular dual-peak version that has a turquoise appearance, in addition to the green. This green differs from the standard zinc silicate green in that the half-width of the emission curve is shorter. So it is naturally more saturated.

By the way, Tecnolux has a lot of great spectral info on the spectral output of their coated tubes. I wish others would do this, and maybe even get together with the plastic and vinyl people and design phosphor blends that match the transmission curves of the plastic.

It's on my list, but not very close to the top at the moment....

Best,

Garett

[Erik Sine]

so much for getting anymore Voltarc green, LOL

[fishing nut]

When I was in Arizona I saw that the shops there used Turquoise behind blue plex. It looked good and got rid of the haze.

Did you have anything to do with this when you were out there Gary?????

[imanut]

When I was in Arizona I saw that the shops there used Turquoise behind blue plex. It looked good and got rid of the haze.

Did you have anything to do with this when you were out there Gary?????

Me??? Never. But, actually, yes it worked quite well behind blue--------