Help With Neon Gas Calculations

[Sticher68]

Hello All, My name is Robb St. Cyr I am a database developer for Cyrious Software, we create a Shop Managment System/POS For the Sign industry, we are about to release our new dataset for channel letters and neon, however I am having an issue with the gas calculations and finding any info there, the main questions is how much gas is used, understanding that diffrent gasses may be used at diffrent pressures, so will very. I am interested in how you may be calculating it currently. Can I say That k-4 for example gets X per cubic feet of tube volume (Diameter * Length) / X ) = Y Liters). Does this make sence to you or is anyone using a different method. and if so were do you think I might be able to find the Value of X for the diffrent gases.(This wil be used for Costing Neon). Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Sticher68]

Hello All, My name is Robb St. Cyr I am a database developer for Cyrious Software, we create a Shop Managment System/POS For the Sign industry, we are about to release our new dataset for channel letters and neon, however I am having an issue with the gas calculations and finding any info there, the main questions is how much gas is used, understanding that diffrent gasses may be used at diffrent pressures, so will very. I am interested in how you may be calculating it currently. Can I say That k-4 for example gets X per cubic feet of tube volume (Diameter * Length) / X ) = Y Liters). Does this make sence to you or is anyone using a different method. and if so were do you think I might be able to find the Value of X for the diffrent gases.(This wil be used for Costing Neon). Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry

(Diameter * 3.14 * Length) / X ) = Y Liters).

[mvilow]

Hi Sticher68,

my name is Malte von Engelbrechten and I'm with Eurocom. We manufacture neon pumping systems and neon components (electrodes/glass tubing). I am attaching our filling tables, which will give you an overview of what filling pressure should be used based on the type of gas and the diameter of the tubes. I will also pass on your question to our engineers in Germany, they might be able to provide you with the equation used for obtaining the filling pressures. If you have more questions or require more specific answers please give me a call (972-791-4401).

For now, I hope the tables will give you an idea.

Cheers,

Malte

Sorry

(Diameter * 3.14 * Length) / X ) = Y Liters).

Pumping_tables.pdf

[fishing nut]

C_04_FillPressureFormula.docC_01_FillPressures.doc

[fishing nut]

Hello Robb,

Attached is a formula for fill pressure and our reccomended fill chart. You must keep in mind that the temperature you fill a tube will effect the ultimate fill pressure. We reccomend filling at 50C / 122F because this is the typical running temperature of the tube. You must also keep in mind that tube length will also be important to factor in as well. As the tube gets shorter the fill pressure must also be increased to compensate for resistance in the arc stream.

Your standard size glass for channel letters is 13 and 15mm. On larger letters 4 ft and up you can use 18mm glass.

I am a glass bender, shop owner and manufacturers technician. if you have any questions you can PM me.

Have a great day

[Sticher68]

Thanks For the info everyone, It will come in handy, however I am still not sure how these relate back to Litters of Gas Purchased, Once I have the Pressure and Tube Length/Diameter how does this relate back to Litters of Gas Purchased, How would I know how much Gas to order for a job or if I was going to have enough to complete it?

Thanks

Robb

[fishing nut]

Thanks For the info everyone, It will come in handy, however I am still not sure how these relate back to Litters of Gas Purchased, Once I have the Pressure and Tube Length/Diameter how does this relate back to Litters of Gas Purchased, How would I know how much Gas to order for a job or if I was going to have enough to complete it?

Thanks

Robb

You do not order your gas by the job. If you are subbing out the work then if need be you can request a certain fill pressure. Gas typically comes in a 25 , 50 or 100 liter tank. Some systems use glass flasks which hold around .9 - 2+ liters of gas. Most neon shops use the larger size. When you price out neon the gas should not be a factor.

Just to give you an answer to your question

1 liter of gas will give you apx 80 units that are 12 mm and 11.5 ft using a 32 mm manifold.

[Freddy@NDS]

From a costing perspective it is almost impossible to determine the current gas fill cost per unit since too many variables will exist - an average of gas usage over time may be factorable within certain confidence levels but still there are too many factors that will affect the costing outcome per unit, mainly due to human methods/errors. Further the cost of fill gas is negligible to the overall cost of the final product. Fill gas should be costed as a bin stock item or variable consumable. If you are going to this extent of costing how are you estimating your glass scrap factors, free mercury usage, and all of the other variable costs associated with creating a letter? Chalk it up to your variable cost column and use past usage history for forecast costing since every system, shop, and person does things differently.

[Sticher68]

Thanks, the formula helped allot to give me a starting point.

Yes I agree the true costing would be beyond practical use, what it is meant to be and how I will be using it is an average base line (generally based on experience / history) with the main purpose to reflect cost differences between the different gasses. (IE: Neon has different Cost than Argon). as well as our system is a PO / Inventory system and therefore there fore I need the consumption to be in litters since that is the way purchased on PO's. It is not trying to estimate the exact usage just a good baseline in estimate to reflect change.

I am not a sales person and in no way am trying to sell any one anything, I can forward you to someone if you interested in that. however I would like the opportunity to show you and get your input on what I am doing with the new datasets. If your familur with Cyrious Software, I am developing there newest OOB V2 Dataset. Digital / Vinyl / Vehicle Wraps / Dimensional Signs / Screen-printing / etc I have completed within the last year and am now working on the electrical side of the Industry. I will be happy to give anyone in the industry a tour of what I am working on for the price of some feedback on how it could be better. And if you are interested in a management and want some feedback in it's development please email me and we can set some time up.

Robb

robbs@cyrious.com