I think I just got reamed by Easy Channel Letters LLC

[Travis]

YYZ, thanks for the tip. I can see this being used quite often and saving time to boot.

Holysemolians, so you still cant get the machine to work correctly and it seems that you intend to send it back, good for you. I would do the same. If it doesnt work out of the box the first time and you have the seller fussing with you about it should have sent out a loud and clear signal to you to back out of the deal, awhile ago in my opinion. Personally I feel that this Fancher can save himself by giving a full refund. The customer is still unhappy about the deal and the people that have kept up with this thread most likely will not purchase this machine, but nobody will be able to say the buyer got f**ked over the deal. Good luck!

[Holysemolians]

YYZ, thanks for the tip. I can see this being used quite often and saving time to boot.

Holysemolians, so you still cant get the machine to work correctly and it seems that you intend to send it back, good for you. I would do the same. If it doesnt work out of the box the first time and you have the seller fussing with you about it should have sent out a loud and clear signal to you to back out of the deal, awhile ago in my opinion. Personally I feel that this Fancher can save himself by giving a full refund. The customer is still unhappy about the deal and the people that have kept up with this thread most likely will not purchase this machine, but nobody will be able to say the buyer got f**ked over the deal. Good luck!

I don't really get his strategy at all. He doesn't seem to understand that to not respond doesn't help him. He must think that I will go away at some point and this thread and/or website will fade away quickly. No, the internet doesn't work that way and this thread has the potential to snowball as other unhappy (I'm assuming) customers vent their common grief over his company and personal service. This website may become much more popular with electric manufacturers as time goes on, and there it is, a smear that never goes away.

I never EXPECTED my money back. But I do admit to using the thread as leverage for getting more consideration. If he offered it, I would not refuse. But this never seemed to be a remote possibility. Maybe he looked at the machine a little faster, and sent it back with the problem "solved" also a little faster. I was hoping to at least get the thing running in order to do a reverse channel letter job in the queque at my shop.

When doing damage control, he should have put up testimonies from other customers, ANY customers who had a positive experience with this printer or this company or it's products. Should have made me a deal which would make me SHUT THE HELL UP. Should have already posted a manual for the printer which is user friendly. Doing nothing and taking the position that this customer is JUST A PAIN IN THE ASS, does not really endear himself to any future

buyers of automated channel letter equipment. I am starting to feel sorry for the guy, because although the end for the printer is coming, I will next post the

comparison results of a competing company's product which will blow his product out of the water. How can it not? 2 weeks and 3 days for a printer to NOT work compared to anything else?

[Brian]

I don't really get his strategy at all. He doesn't seem to understand that to not respond doesn't help him. He must think that I will go away at some point and this thread and/or website will fade away quickly. No, the internet doesn't work that way and this thread has the potential to snowball as other unhappy (I'm assuming) customers vent their common grief over his company and personal service. This website may become much more popular with electric manufacturers as time goes on, and there it is, a smear that never goes away.

I never EXPECTED my money back. But I do admit to using the thread as leverage for getting more consideration. If he offered it, I would not refuse. But this never seemed to be a remote possibility. Maybe he looked at the machine a little faster, and sent it back with the problem "solved" also a little faster. I was hoping to at least get the thing running in order to do a reverse channel letter job in the queque at my shop.

When doing damage control, he should have put up testimonies from other customers, ANY customers who had a positive experience with this printer or this company or it's products. Should have made me a deal which would make me SHUT THE HELL UP. Should have already posted a manual for the printer which is user friendly. Doing nothing and taking the position that this customer is JUST A PAIN IN THE ASS, does not really endear himself to any future

buyers of automated channel letter equipment. I am starting to feel sorry for the guy, because although the end for the printer is coming, I will next post the

comparison results of a competing company's product which will blow his product out of the water. How can it not? 2 weeks and 3 days for a printer to NOT work compared to anything else?

I don't believe your rantings with affect this man's business at all. Anyone who has read your posts (all gazillion of them)

will be able to see exactly what is going on here. If I were him I would not respond back to you on here and let you just fad away in the dust (as you will do eventually).

Remember: The squeaky wheel gets the grease until you have heard it squeak so long you just ignore it.

[Erik Sine]

Here is an option I can suggest for you, anybody here who wants a user ignored, which mean you will never see them posting, or posts in a thread.

Go to their profile and go to "Options", PRESTO!

[Brian]

Here is an option I can suggest for you anybody here who wants a user ignored, which mean you will never see them posting, or posts in a thread.

Go to their profile and go to "Options", PRESTO!

A very nice option for a hot head like me!!!!!

[YYZ]

Go ahead Erik - put your wife on your ignore list. Tell us how that works out for you ;)

[Erik Sine]

LOL, I knew that was coming.

Maybe there is something subliminal here? Too bad real life can't be as easy as a drop down menu. But, she does tell me I have bad hearing, maybe its selective hearing

[Holysemolians]

I see you out there, Erik waiting for me to say something to Brian. Well, it wouldn't matter anyway since he supposedly shut me out. Naw, I'll pass. You can babysit somewhere else now.

I was gonna say nice legs, why did you pick that page?

[Erik Sine]

I see you out there, Erik waiting for me to say something to Brian. Well, it wouldn't matter anyway since he supposedly shut me out. Naw, I'll pass. You can babysit somewhere else now.

I was gonna say nice legs, why did you pick that page?

I can't select myself, the window won't work. That is odd, why did I pick my wifes profile?

I'm not waiting for you or anyone at this point, I don't really care what you guys say to one another until it's personal, turns into a big flame war getting so far out of substance to the original post it's unbearable, I just hate seen people waste a interesting thread. I'd rather you people who have a problem with one another just use "ignore" rather than myself having to edit or get PM's from other people.

Damn! See I had a few secs to spare, now I gotta go make a sign

Just to give you all an example, I've stopped reading the thread from about the first couple of posts since it turned into something else. I have no idea at this point what is going on with 83 posts. But I do wish you luck and hope everything works out with the money you already shelled out

[Holysemolians]

I can't select myself, the window won't work. That is odd, why did I pick my wifes profile?

I'm not waiting for you or anyone at this point, I don't really care what you guys say to one another until it's personal, turns into a big flame war getting so far out of substance to the original post it's unbearable, I just hate seen people waste a interesting thread. I'd rather you people who have a problem with one another just use "ignore" rather than myself having to edit or get PM's from other people.

Damn! See I had a few secs to spare, now I gotta go make a sign

Just to give you all an example, I've stopped reading the thread from about the first couple of posts since it turned into something else. I have no idea at this point what is going on with 83 posts. But I do wish you luck and hope everything works out with the money you already shelled out

Yeah, no all I meant to say is that I've no personal motivation toward instigating anything else with Chubby. I have one fight and one antagonist. Everything else is extrarreaneous.

But taking my money IS personal. Like blood I'm down about 2 pints.

[Holysemolians]

Emailed Fancher just now. I am pretty much at the end of my rope. No matter how much of an ass I've been, this guy has not proven to me nor do I think anyone reading this thread that the printer can work at all. To print a sample file and make a movie of it does not constitute real evidence of a viable piece of equipment. If my files from the Flexi platform cannot be converted as .dxf EZ 5.1 files, then the machine is worthless. A machine can only be as good as all the components or parts working properly together. I am thinking now that only two versions of Corel, (9 and 12) and possibly two versions of Illustrator CS3 can convert and to not warn the customer of this constitutes consumer fraud. It has not been proven if any or all of the above 4 sofware versions are viable either. This is the essence of my thread, whether interesting or not. I am giving you one more chance, Neil, because you deserve it, not as a professional representative of Easy Channel Letters, but rather because you are a fellow human being.

Prove me wrong, for your own sake. This is a public forum and many will navigate here.

[Holysemolians]

Fancher sent a link to an FTP site which was supposed to download Corel 12 as a free software. The download failed 3x; not all the files would download including the file with the serial number required to activate the software. Spent 1 1/2 hours messing with this step.

I don't know if this was a concession to me as a #$#@ or if this is normal customer procedure which got delayed. He had asked me before if I had Corel and I said yes, but he did not ask what version. Maybe he was waiting to see if my version would work. The email by his assistance said that it might. Which means that the company probably doesn't know. If Corel 9 works, then why wouldn't 10? Assuming it does, I don't know.

The following is a description of a competitor, which would belong in some other category in the formum except in it's relationship as a competitor to the Easy Channel Letter System. Anyone reading this thread may want to skip the following. Meanwhile I have a trial version of ReturnRoute from Arete, which is a router described software. This product is for the purpose of being able to router your returns as a whole piece. This product works almost flawlessly as claimed -- on my Sabre 408 -- the only problem I encountered is that the export of the .dxf sign file to the Arete file leaves an open end on the front side. Not a big problem since you just make a mark line and cut it off. Also the router itself makes the bend lines as an engraved line, which if made too deeply will compromise

the bend itself. We know you can only rebend .040 maybe once. With the Arete system, there is no rebending.

I had already known this product worked, but wanted a faster system, and mistakenly chose this Easy Channel Letter product because I thought it would be faster. To rout the sides and notches of a return just seemed too slow to me, and I tried tweaking the speed at one time but could only get a small improvement. Also, my sheets seem to have too much leftover "drop" when the strips are lined up and routered.

However, I asked Michelle if the output file could be printed or cut on a plotter and she said yes. I am thinking maybe I can print and/or cut the same file

as a label on paint mask vinyl. This would eliminate a label printer altogether. My thinking now is that the plotter is much more likely to not break down or

slip than the Easy Channel Letter printer, which has a gear which I believe will slip out of engagement. Results to be recorded.

[fishing nut]

Is all this to cut out channel letter backs and returns?

Why not just export to your router the letters like you send anything to the router and inset the face size 1/8" with your standard program. If you got the bender then wouldn't it be easier to just make the letters the old fashioned way?

[Holysemolians]

Is all this to cut out channel letter backs and returns?

Why not just export to your router the letters like you send anything to the router and inset the face size 1/8" with your standard program. If you got the bender then wouldn't it be easier to just make the letters the old fashioned way?

Well, the backs are not at issue here. I cut them along with the faces the regular way on the router. We are trying to automate the return making process by using a system which works better than the old fashioned way. The idea is that a software which can translate the physical distance from one bend to the next will be more accurate and easier than the old way. You just determine where you want your beginning and end of each letter, set a few variables on the screen and press the button to get the parameters. 'Course then you have to print the label,apply it and remove it later. However, I myself may not be the expert here, since I've only been doing channel letters for 4-5 yrs sporadically with my other sign work and was never taught in a large shop. So it is possible that a hotshot return maker can beat the automated systems out there, but even the router system by Arete already seems a little easier overall, if only because I don't have to concentrate as hard getting all the bends in the right order manually etc. Also I can be doing something else while the returns are routering. I tend to have a little harder time with reverse channel letters, making the manual measurements esp. if it is over 12" or more to the next bend.

This old Mexican who taught me showed me how to "roll" the letter to make the marks and so I don't usually measure by flexible tape unless it cannot be rolled to the next bend. However, I don't claim to know all the tricks and maybe never saw a real "hotshot" in action. This is an interesting subject to me, however and those little tricks which save time and energy are valuable, maybe in another section on this board.

[jorgev]

If I may, allow me to share with you all a PDF file that we call Basics 101, it is for channel letter fabrication with the Let-R-Edge® system but for what is worth I think that in it we show the manual layout with a butyrate tape and stabillo (simple but really efficient method). We also have a Pattern Printer and software that reads the cutting file (DXF, AI, G code vector file) and produces a computerized letter return layout that matches the routed piece replacing the hand letter return layout.

LE_Basics_101.pdf

[fishing nut]

I tend to have a little harder time with reverse channel letters, making the manual measurements esp. if it is over 12" or more to the next bend.

I like to use a strip of magnetic materal about 1/2" wide. This makes measuring things out a little easier. A shop i worked in years ago I used to race the metal man doing channels. He has these 2 little hand tools that take place of a finger break. Honestly he could probably go as fast as one of those channel letter machines when he has all the marks. But a machine doesnt get cut, complain, will work on sundays ect.

Have a great weekend

[jorgev]

We have a fellow friend that works in town with a company that uses Let-R-Edge® and an Acubend machine in their shop and he swears that overall he can fabricate more letters by hand with Let-R-Edge®, he uses the plastic layout tape. The machine can produce letters on Sunday but still you have to wrap the trim cap and ... while with Let-R-Edge after you wrap and glue the face to the return you're very much finish.

In this outfit the sales people are push to sale more machine formed pan channel letters because of the lease payment due for the machine even though they can quote lower with Let-R-Edge®.

[Holysemolians]

Update: Easy Channel Letters is sending me a CD in the mail since their FTP site could not download all the files including the serial number file I needed to activate the software (Corel12). I have not worked on the alternate system (ReturnRoute) yet. I do not think they were screwing me over the software; the lady I'm now dealing with said another person had the same problem with the download. They also sent me a converted file which is the reverse channel letter job pending in my shop. Results coming up. Has been 25 days since I first got the Easy Channel Letter printer. The original sales rep. who is called "Head of Operations," on the telephone, Neil Fancher apparently has referred me to the graphics specialist and has not responded to me or been on the board for a while.

[Holysemolians]

I finally got inspired enough to try the EZ Channel software 5.1 again using the converted file Tammy sent from the company already converted to Corel 12 .dxf. The file DID import although for a split second it looked like it would crash again. But the options page did not show a return channel letter option. And I was supposed to tell the computer if this printer is an "A," "B," or "C" printer which the manual said was given by a notice in the box. Never saw any such notice; could have been lost in the 25 days we messed around with the hardware. So two irritating problems right off the bat getting the software to work which I will have to ask Tammy about tomorrow since it is after hours. If the software cannot distinguish between regular channel letters as opposed to regular channel letters, then it is WORSE than crapola, and I cannot believe this to be true.ezoptions.pdfezoptions2.pdf

[Holysemolians]

Update: Corel 12 still has not arrived. Has been almost 30 days since the Easy Channel Letter printer first arrived in my shop.

Update on ReturnRoute by Arete: Adjusted a few variables and have so far made a label out of paint mask vinyl printed on my Roland print and cut. I contour cut the outside of each label and the print lines show whether the bend is out or in. Angle of bend is manual which I don't mind (Easy Channel Letter system tells you exact numerical angle). This system can work as a plotter cut label except you can't distinguish between out bends and in bends. Or I've not figured out how this can happen anyway. The only problem I'm having is with the extreme angle reverse bends (out). The software is figuring too much of a "point" and doesn't "hug" the bend close enough. I will explain what this is more clearly next. The girl at Arete said to try something which I will do tomorrow. This label system is already saving time and energy. I just peel the paint mask off and apply it flush to both edges on the return matl. without any transfer tape. My finger brake distorts the mask at the bend but so far doesn't seem to distort the position at the next one.

[Holysemolians]

I am giving up at this point on the Easy Channel Letter System. It has been more than 30 days and the printer will not work even with the file Fancher converted for my sign job. The questions I asked Tammy, the other company contact regarding the software window progression confused her and she referred me back to Fancher, who is on an install. The software I received for Corel 12 was a copy with the serial registration written by hand on the disk. This is too much and I am out the 870.00 restocking charge the contract specifies. It remains to be seen whether or not or how fast the 70% refund will occur.

This product and it's rep is in my view a "1" on a scale from 1 to 10 with "1" being the worst rip-off known to the sign business. I know for a fact I have never been ripped off by anyone in 22 years as bad as this company. Anyone buying any product from the Easy Channel Letter System should take heed that it is POSSIBLE they can get a different product to work, but that for now, the return label printer is a rip-off and a scam.

As a contrast, I recently installed an Epson printer and it took 20 mins. with the instructions readable to a 9 yr old. This is state of the art customer-user friendly and came with an easy install guide as well as a READABLE in English user manual.

As another contrast the Arete ReturnRoute system had few glitches and was usable at once when I outputted to my printer/cutter on paint mask. They didn't even advertise their system to work this way, but rather initially only as a software for ROUTING the return! I gained value from this system right away in a few days. The software readily converted my Flexi 8 .dxf files and the previously mentioned inside bend points on the acute angle bends were adjusted to a much more tolerable level with one email and adjustment on the setup window. This system is now one half the price of the Easy Channel Letter printer system. There is no printer, but a plotter will work if you don't mind translating a cut line to either an inside or outside bend. Also the girl who spoke with me on the phone was prompt and knows much more about how the software works.

[easychannelletters]

Here is the last and final email that I will respond to for this Thread. I have appreciated ever comment to this thread form everybody on the outside. I have taken every comment and learned from it. I have done everything in my power to help this customer on this sale. I have sold over 20 of these systems without problems. I have bent over backwards to try to make this happen for this customer. It doesn’t matter what I do to make it better, I can't because, I have a customer that is incapable of making it happen.

As most of you know in this thread, I have done my best to make it right with this customer. He now wants to return this product. The company makes it clear to make an educated decision before you purchase our system, and state it clearly that no returns will happen after 7 days of purchase on the invoice they sign. I will not, nor will the company change this policy. This might not sound right to everybody on this thread, but this is our position.

I compare this to a lighted sign you have sold. You sell a lighted sign to a customer that they signed off on. You gave them everything you promised. The color was correct and the sign was exactly what the proof said it was. When it comes to lighting the sign, the customer has no idea how to turn on the switch, so the sign does not light up. It is not our fault that this customer does not know how to turn on the switch.

When you buy a car, they do not ask you, do you know how to drive. I was put in the position to teach this customer how to drive. I did everything in my power to teach this customer how to drive. This customer does not have the capability to learn how to drive.

Our products are the best the industry has to offer. All of our products make each and every company more profitable.

Below is the threatening email he sent and my respones. He has sent these throughout this whole ordeal. I will not let anybody try to threaten me because of their lack of intelligence. My integrity means the most to me and stand by everything that has happen on or part in this Thread.

I wish everybody good luck in their ventures and hope you do not have to ever deal with this type of customer in you life.

As per our contract you are past the 7 days.

Neil R. Fancher

Easy Channel Letters LLC.

941 Telluride Street

Aurora, CO 80011

720-324-8704 Direct

866-929-0220 Toll Free

720-949-00335 Fax

Neil@easychannelletters.com

www.EasyChannelLetters.com

Let Our Wholesale Division Help you with all your wholesale Printing and Channel Letter Needs.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: Invoice

From: "George Dunn" <GeorgeDunn@austin.rr.com>

Date: Mon, March 16, 2009 8:07 pm

To: "Neil Fancher" <neil@easychannelletters.com>

I want my 70% money back because this system does not work after 30 days of dinking around. If you say 7 days for the return, but it takes 30 days to find out you screwed me royal then you better think about just giving my 70% back. You think I'm going to be done with you but this is just the start if you think you can get the rest of my money. Come back.

[Brian]

Here is the last and final email that I will respond to for this Thread. I have appreciated ever comment to this thread form everybody on the outside. I have taken every comment and learned from it. I have done everything in my power to help this customer on this sale. I have sold over 20 of these systems without problems. I have bent over backwards to try to make this happen for this customer. It doesn’t matter what I do to make it better, I can't because, I have a customer that is incapable of making it happen.

As most of you know in this thread, I have done my best to make it right with this customer. He now wants to return this product. The company makes it clear to make an educated decision before you purchase our system, and state it clearly that no returns will happen after 7 days of purchase on the invoice they sign. I will not, nor will the company change this policy. This might not sound right to everybody on this thread, but this is our position.

I compare this to a lighted sign you have sold. You sell a lighted sign to a customer that they signed off on. You gave them everything you promised. The color was correct and the sign was exactly what the proof said it was. When it comes to lighting the sign, the customer has no idea how to turn on the switch, so the sign does not light up. It is not our fault that this customer does not know how to turn on the switch.

When you buy a car, they do not ask you, do you know how to drive. I was put in the position to teach this customer how to drive. I did everything in my power to teach this customer how to drive. This customer does not have the capability to learn how to drive.

Our products are the best the industry has to offer. All of our products make each and every company more profitable.

Below is the threatening email he sent and my respones. He has sent these throughout this whole ordeal. I will not let anybody try to threaten me because of their lack of intelligence. My integrity means the most to me and stand by everything that has happen on or part in this Thread.

I wish everybody good luck in their ventures and hope you do not have to ever deal with this type of customer in you life.

As per our contract you are past the 7 days.

Neil R. Fancher

Easy Channel Letters LLC.

941 Telluride Street

Aurora, CO 80011

720-324-8704 Direct

866-929-0220 Toll Free

720-949-00335 Fax

Neil@easychannelletters.com

www.EasyChannelLetters.com

Let Our Wholesale Division Help you with all your wholesale Printing and Channel Letter Needs.

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: Invoice

From: "George Dunn" <GeorgeDunn@austin.rr.com>

Date: Mon, March 16, 2009 8:07 pm

To: "Neil Fancher" <neil@easychannelletters.com>

I want my 70% money back because this system does not work after 30 days of dinking around. If you say 7 days for the return, but it takes 30 days to find out you screwed me royal then you better think about just giving my 70% back. You think I'm going to be done with you but this is just the start if you think you can get the rest of my money. Come back.

Stick to you guns, I do believe you sincerely tried to rectify the problem

[Holysemolians]

Funny how two people who seem to be entirely rational can come to the exact opposite conclusion. Travis was about the only one who said Fancher was an ass. Chubby thinks Fancher is okay and I'm the ass.

No, I didn't read the fine print on the bottom of the contract until I decided to return the machine. It was too late, at the time Fancher was HOLDING the machine at his office. Refer back and it was apparent that this is part of his strategy. Instead of fixing the machine or even looking at it right away he made some excuse about not having a standard parallel port and held it for 7 days. 2 days longer than the contract required for him to cheat me out of the whole pot.

They have still not answered my email which asks where is the reverse channel letter choice in the options window. Also if the printer is an "A," "B," or "C" printer which is a required field. These are not hard questions, but Tammy referred me to Fancher who neglected to answer them. After 30 days and the machine still doesn't work? And Chubby you say he made an honest effort with me? No, I think you and me got crossways, and you aren't seeing this whole thing straight. Fancher has made NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER in the last two weeks except to send me an email saying my Corel 10 was too low a version to work. Which he could have told me 2 weeks previous if he even knew it. I spent 3 hours trying to download off of their site in vain the Corel 12 which is the ONLY sign software which will work with the printer. Then waited 4 more days.

Yes he would like to see this thread disappear. But now I am stuck with it and have to make it work as well as it will no matter how long it takes or how long I have to harass them. Funny how he used a car sales analogy. If you bought a USED, PIECE OF SH%T CAR, then his behavior is analogous. But the machine was new and I paid way too much for what I got. He never admitted that the machine was already returned for the reason that a GEAR was out of place and disengaged. And STILL is not fixed, proven by the fact that it was out of place AGAIN when I received it back. I had to push it back manually, and it is an ongoing defect.

I am way too stupid to get his system to work, but the Arete system without the printer was working for my jobs in two days using an output not even

advertised by them. Their software works off my Flexi 8 and outputs into my ancient Graphix Advantage for my router as well as back into Flexi for my printer/cutter. I used the system easily, smoothly and with almost no glitches.

One thing, Neil Fancher. Your peers in the industry are seeing you here. I've personally spoken to three of your competitors and they are all laughing about you and your products and your personal way of doing business. You are the sleaze bucket bottom of the barrel lowlife in the industry at every trade show you go to. We will be watching you. My last "threat" email you posted is not a threat at all because you are not getting away with my money scot free.

[Erik Sine]

I've lightly read this thread and I only have a couple of things to say.

You can't compare consumer products to work contract work, it isn't the same. Work done by a contractor is regulated and provides remedies to both parties in case there is a breach of contract or shoddy work performed by a contractor. Both the consumer & contractor are protected under the consumer affairs & contractors board.

In the case of consumer products, the fine print must always be read. Personally for me if I'm going to shell out money over 1k for a unknown/custom product, I like to get references and talk to people who have used it, ask how the product performs, how the customer service is. Just in the case of my CNC, I visited other shops, talked to other individuals and monitored their support. That way I know what I'm purchasing.