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Honesty in Sign Industry Trade Magazine Articles, Part II


Erik Sine

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They are now requiring all installers in Arkansas to be lisenced, so it's not that anyone can install signs, not in Arkansas anyway!! They are also requiring you to be certified to operate a forklift!! And before you can hook electricity up to your sign, you have to be lisenced for that too!! So it's not as easy as it may seem to an untrained eye!!!

That's the whole funny part to all this. Their ignorance (These Fraggles) preaching & encouraging the "sign hack" to enter our arena, then some other legit columnist has to write an article about cleaning up the industry just like we saw last month in Signs & Digital Graphics. Someone had to play clean up over there (Thank you David Williamson, National Conversation About Signage).

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. But I guess writing an article on unethical mass promotion one month then cleaning up the industry the next keeps them busy.

Comical?

You are correct, in Most states, they require a contractors license to install electric signs and only a licensed contractor can sub-contract another company legally.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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They are now requiring all installers in Arkansas to be lisenced, so it's not that anyone can install signs, not in Arkansas anyway!! They are also requiring you to be certified to operate a forklift!! And before you can hook electricity up to your sign, you have to be lisenced for that too!! So it's not as easy as it may seem to an untrained eye!!!

That's our point exactly! But according to fraggle anyone cane do it!

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Brian, please don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think! :thumbs:

I know I sometimes have a hard time expressing myself! LOL

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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6dXFWL7l7A0

hahahahahahahahahahaha now that is FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol_hitting:

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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A new Fraggle has entered the "theater" in this months new issue of Signs Of The Times article "Channeling Your Energies" by Steve Aust.

Thread Key Legend

Wembly.jpg

The Fraggle = The Magazine Puppet Infomercialist columnists

fraggle%20gorg.jpg

The Gorg = The Magazine Puppet Editors

We can start with the obvious, the typical preach to their base article, every advertiser that spends a dime is in this article, and none that advertise are mentioned. This article is as hollow and unfinished as the set of channel letters they have pictured on the first page of this infomercial.

The mention of their figures on LED usage by their surveys is a figure I trust as far as I can throw that whole stack of letters. With the emergence of LED's came the noobulous wannabe electric sign companies and wholesalers. The only figures I would count on from this survey are those who have been in business for 10+ years and how they have mingled both CCFL and LED illuminated channel letters. I can guarantee the usage of LED's would be a lot less than the claims. There is also the mention of a wholesaler who claim s they only use LED's because of the energy usage, I would tell you who they are, but that would mean I would have to stomach the idea of reading the article again to find out who it was. As a sign company who would order channel letters from a wholesaler this is a big red flag of who NOT to use or trust their expertise. Again, a smart company and project manager would use the best light source for the application and where the application is going.

ENERGY SAVING!!!

bullshit.jpg

Another term that gets thrown around when it comes to marketing and thrown in our faces when it comes to light sources. What they always fail to mention in these "infomercial" articles when they do their promoting is how temperature affects both light sources. The most important question should be, where is the sign going? How do wholesalers who sell only LED's for their channel letters feel about shipping an LED sign to Maui? Las Vegas? Arizona? Mexico? Maybe there is a lack, in THEIR expertise? I'll leave that question to be answered by the true experts.

I'm going to pick on GE here since they are mentioned. I have nothing bad to say about GE's LED's, they are a very good product with very little light degradation over time (see "The Great White Hope Project"). Energy Savings are thrown around all the time and we can't seem to not get hit with that promotional word.

Let's take some figures straight out of The Great White Hope Project .

Let's look at our 15 channel letter project of a light source that would have the same footage as CCFL or "neon" (so the LED only vendor can comprehend and follow along) having approx 6' for material (lamps) for each letter

GE Power White Sign (210 watts)

GE Power White LED's are $27 a foot @ two modules per foot. It will cost approximately $75 a year to light that 15 letter sign up. The footage will be 90' of LED's that's 180 Power White Modules costing a customer $2,430.00 in LED's and probably four power sources at a $80 a pop = $320.00. I'm not going to factor in all the small special connectors needed. For the first day this sign is lit you are paying $2,750 in LED and PS costs above the other material cost for the sign.

CCFL (Neon) 13mm lamps (345 watts)

Elite Lamp Technologies CCFL lamps are priced on average $35.00 each for 6 linear foot lamps. It will cost approximately $113.00 a year to light this 15 letter sign up. The total footage of glass is 90 linear feet costing the customer $525.00. You have two choices here you can choose two magnetic transformers @ $90.00 each or make each letter a dedicated electronic transformer for each letter. For this "energy savings" sake I will make it with electronic transformers. 15 electronic transformers $30.00 each = $450.00 I will go so far as to add some more cost for GTO & Electrode caps, partial supply maybe $113.00 for good silicone products.

Let's look at the total cost above the channel letter fabrication

GE Power White =$2,750.00

Elite CCFL (Neon) = $1,088.00

The cost difference is $1,662.00 more you will pay going LED for your light source over a CCFL system.

The cost saving in annual power consumption in the 15 letter sign is $38 a year using LED's over CCFL

You would have to have your channel letter sign with GE Power Whites for at least 45 years just to break even with the cost it took to make a CCFL illuminated channel letter set. I'm also sure that that 45 years waaaaay exceeds the lamp life of those LED's so figure in the costs of about four more retrofit jobs should that sign still be around with no re-branding

I'm curious, this article is so one sided. I didn't see any CCFL or (Neon) manufacturer's mentioned in this article by the Fraggle?

*Source The Great White Hope ProjectAgain, choose the best light source for the sign application, not just LED of CCFL because you think you are saving your client money somewhere. The choice of using LED's over CCFL have NOTHING more to do with saving money in energy consumption. You choice for using LED's has to be Dependability (pending vendor) & Convenience (some time saved in labor, some). Most Importantly, WHERE is the sign going, Alaska or Arizona, SHOULD be your biggest deciding factor. Also, some reason to choose LED's over CCFL is a lack of options to choose or find a tube bender (Neon Guy) close by. One of the reasons some of these wholesalers lack the CCFL and only offer LED's as an option in their is because they don't employ anyone with the "know how" or they don't have the "know how", that's their fault! Keep your real options open and find someone who offers both light sources.

I'm still very surprised, well I take that back no I'm not. There is a HUGE lack in talks in these trade magazine infomercial articles about the options of Tri-Phoshpor & RE Phosphor coated lamps. They still seem to be doing their comparisons with no mention of them. I've been using these types of lamps in my channel letters for a couple years now. BIG difference over the conventional halo-phosphate lamps like 6500 snow white and colors. Much more punch and longevity!

balloonpop.jpg

Lastly, The Signs of The Times "Channel-letter Engineering" by Marcus Thelen.

I'm sure this guy makes the Gorg (The Magazine Editor) cringe with every article he writes (There has to be a double proof read protocol set into place just for him). There also has to be a lot of in-fighting & workplace politics I'm sure between Marcus & the Gorg.

I though this small part of the article very funny and had to briefly laugh out loud when I read it.

In the article he talks about a comparison with a CCFL RE coated Phosphor lamp in comparison to some Nichia brand "X" LED module labeled by ONLY the Nichia manufacturered chip number NFSB036G :laughing1: and no other title which to where we can identify the manufacturer. I'm guessing Marcus had originally called out who it was and when the Gorg did his final proof read he immediately choked on his cheetos and dove chop blocking Marcus at the knees, editing the true identity as not to offend, their advertising base customer who appears on some one page ad I'm sure.

I might have more to offer for free, but yet VERY expensive opinion, we'll have to see how much spare time I have in my private office with my porcelain partner. Well, till next month maybe (October)

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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It's totally disgusting, you're right>>>>>I'm still trying to figure out what the point of that article is? What message are they trying to bring across?>>>>someone?

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  • 1 month later...

It's Octoberfest and so is true for this months Trade Rags.

Now we have trade articles written by the Manufacturer reps themselves??? "SCOOOOT OVER Fraggle...YOU'RE not promoting our company good enough for us!"

It doesn't get any better than this, this couldn't be scripted any better for a movie.

It's a typical LED is good, all else is bad and inefficient. How come we don't see a CCFL (AKA Neon) illuminated cabinet in the mix? This article is written by a rep of a company who's product the only one listed and named (AgiLight). I see other LED's from other manufacturer's pictured but not named. This is a infomercial for AgiLight to build demand for their newer T-Lamp replacement modules.

HEY, nothing against Agilight here, their in out Light Projects and they're good participants and good people. But for a magazine to turn over the reigns of a trade column to a manufacturer and just one company to promote just their product? The title assumes an article of variety, but only one is named.

DON'T get me wrong, I'd pounce on it too if I were a manufacturer and had the opportunity to write an article about myself for my companies marketing needs. If opportunity is KNOCKING, you answer the door right??

What SDG needs to start doing to be fair to it's reading to for warn them is adding

"PAID ADVERTISEMENT"

Above their columns that they choose to substitute in for "real" journalism.

But, what does this say for Sign & Digital Graphics? The question "?" marks continue.

thinking.jpg

Hey Ken, does this mean the typewriter is going to get past my way soon in this musical columns session to have a crack at this too? C'mon, I swear it will be your biggest blockbuster month, and most read! Think about it.

There is also a :treehugger: article in this months issue as well, my valuable thoughts later on this

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

I was beginning to loose faith that I wouldn't be able to praise Sign & Digital Graphics for something before the years end but,

YES YES YES!!!! Finally, a master piece! One surely worthy of the Pulitzer Prize for the industry.

In this months issue (Dec 09) Greener Electric Signage, Neon's Eco-Friendly Potential by Regan Dickinson, he talks about the use of neon & Fluorescent being a closed loop, use, Recycle and use again. It's finally stated that Neon can be the MOST Environmentally-friendly choice to the "Green Sham".

Where have these articles been???

Finally we hear in this article what has been known and said so many times here....."Not one light source fits all applications". Glad they brought in Jay Blazek from Western Neon to talk about that very subject as he stated he'll use both depending on the application.

They even have Loren Hudson of the neon Group mixing in the use of Tri-Phosphors into the mix. Larger Diameter, greater spacing = more light and more efficiency.

NOW, if they can just mix a little of what is explained here into other articles that they write or who they let write such as an LED company or an inexperienced Fraggle who doesn't check what they are writing about before they push the "publish" button, maybe in the form of an asterisk with an explanation in the back of the magazine that points to a past issue of DEC 09 that might help explain that the choice of Neon is always there should it be a viable option and of which is also "Environmentally-friendly" :treehugger: and when handled right acts as a "closed loop"

About time, glad you came through finally Sign & Digital Graphics and let's keep those standards high as this month. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I was beginning to loose faith that I wouldn't be able to praise Sign & Digital Graphics for something before the years end but,

YES YES YES!!!! Finally, a master piece! One surely worthy of the Pulitzer Prize for the industry.

In this months issue (Dec 09) Greener Electric Signage, Neon's Eco-Friendly Potential by Regan Dickinson, he talks about the use of neon & Fluorescent being a closed loop, use, Recycle and use again. It's finally stated that Neon can be the MOST Environmentally-friendly choice to the "Green Sham".

Where have these articles been???

Finally we hear in this article what has been known and said so many times here....."Not one light source fits all applications". Glad they brought in Jay Blazek from Western Neon to talk about that very subject as he stated he'll use both depending on the application.

They even have Loren Hudson of the neon Group mixing in the use of Tri-Phosphors into the mix. Larger Diameter, greater spacing = more light and more efficiency.

NOW, if they can just mix a little of what is explained here into other articles that they write or who they let write such as an LED company or an inexperienced Fraggle who doesn't check what they are writing about before they push the "publish" button, maybe in the form of an asterisk with an explanation in the back of the magazine that points to a past issue of DEC 09 that might help explain that the choice of Neon is always there should it be a viable option and of which is also "Environmentally-friendly" :treehugger: and when handled right acts as a "closed loop"

About time, glad you came through finally Sign & Digital Graphics and let's keep those standards high as this month. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Haven't gotten my issue yet... now I can't wait!

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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I was beginning to loose faith that I wouldn't be able to praise Sign & Digital Graphics for something before the years end but,

YES YES YES!!!! Finally, a master piece! One surely worthy of the Pulitzer Prize for the industry.

In this months issue (Dec 09) Greener Electric Signage, Neon's Eco-Friendly Potential by Regan Dickinson, he talks about the use of neon & Fluorescent being a closed loop, use, Recycle and use again. It's finally stated that Neon can be the MOST Environmentally-friendly choice to the "Green Sham".

Where have these articles been???

Finally we hear in this article what has been known and said so many times here....."Not one light source fits all applications". Glad they brought in Jay Blazek from Western Neon to talk about that very subject as he stated he'll use both depending on the application.

They even have Loren Hudson of the neon Group mixing in the use of Tri-Phosphors into the mix. Larger Diameter, greater spacing = more light and more efficiency.

NOW, if they can just mix a little of what is explained here into other articles that they write or who they let write such as an LED company or an inexperienced Fraggle who doesn't check what they are writing about before they push the "publish" button, maybe in the form of an asterisk with an explanation in the back of the magazine that points to a past issue of DEC 09 that might help explain that the choice of Neon is always there should it be a viable option and of which is also "Environmentally-friendly" :treehugger: and when handled right acts as a "closed loop"

About time, glad you came through finally Sign & Digital Graphics and let's keep those standards high as this month. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Haven't gotten my issue yet... now I can't wait!

A link

http://digital.sdgmag.com/sdgmag/200912#pg1

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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High Voltage - You should write for that magazine. Your original point about encouraging amateurs to engage in dangerous work, illegally, is important. And, you clearly like to write. I'd bet they would be receptive to contributing writers. Its worth a shot.

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High Voltage - You should write for that magazine. Your original point about encouraging amateurs to engage in dangerous work, illegally, is important. And, you clearly like to write. I'd bet they would be receptive to contributing writers. Its worth a shot.

Thank you for the kind words John.

But unfortunately, I probably have a better chance of buying a ticket to mars first :crazy:. I've had a couple show interest in the light comparison's we are doing initially, and I have to stress, initially. It's until they have that meeting with their publisher or puppeteer on the subject that all of a sudden emails and correspondence soon becomes unresposive :soopa:

Yeah, Mars is lookin kinda good at this point! :P

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Just received "Rag" I mean mag, the article is excellent!!!!

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • 1 month later...

Just browsed through Sign Builder's January issue "Checking into LED Lighting"

All I have to say is, there is a time to use LED's and there is a time to stick with Neon when re-working a historic sign and appearance.

In this project I can already see judging from the night shot how this sign must look in person, but this is just an assumption. In my personal opinion it's a poor choice to boot out neon for a border and replace it with a wannabe Neon look LED strips. This sign being so small and having a history of problems ( I wonder why, since the company who did the makeover has been maintaining the sign), how easy and balanced you could load a transformer for this giving that CCFL border long life.

From the night shot I'm going to assume, the neon is so bright because they chose a shot to over expose making the LED appearance so much brighter. I assume this because I know the appearance of the LED's used.

My opinion again, if you're going to work on history, give it back, and stick with it. For a sign company that has been in business for so long, as written, it surprises me how they chose to do their make over, especially being on the 101 freeway.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • 2 months later...

For the last few months I started reading a great offbeat trade magazine that is still in the realm of electric signs, and of course mostly design.

segdDesign is an awesome magazine if you haven't ever peeped it out. This is one magazine that has been around since 04' doesn't have a whole lot of advertising AND, you can actually see that they do have "Articles", and not a big over sized brochure filled with advertising that some publishers call a "trade magazine". There also isn't any back patting or special infomercial articles written to support or drum up traffic for their advertisers which are mostly the National Sign Companies.

I hope this magazine stays this way, not been influenced by the folks who advertise in their publication.

The other magazines of our industry need to take note from this thread, the Trade Magazine Poll, and of course the Shinning example of segdDesign

:thumbs:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Okay, so on March issues of the trade rags are out. Just to humor myself I did a page count of content vs brochure spam

Placed Highest to lowest spam rate

Signs Of the Times (75.18%)

136 Internal pages

33 Article Pages

13.66 Pages on Update's or product pages, new or otherwise created by vendors

3 intro, tables & self mag promotion

If we leave out the tables and shows, then we have out of 133 pages, 75.18% of those are spam. Combining the product updates if we want to be generous in thinking maybe information can be learned then out of 152 pages, then 64.91% of the magazine is spam.

Article Cream or Cheese?: Powering LED's-Marcus Theilin (Cream) +5

-Learning about LED power supplies and systems is always a plus

Signs & Digital Graphics (62.29%)

130 Internal Pages

46 Article Pages

6 Pages on Update's or product pages, new or otherwise created by vendors

8 intro, tables & self mag promotion

If we leave out the tables and shows, then we have out of 122 pages, 62.29% of those are spam. Combining the updates if we want to be generous in thinking maybe information can be learned then out of 122 pages, then 53.37% of the magazine is spam.

Article Cream or Cheese?: Service-Friendly Monuments - Matt Charboneu (Cheese) -1

- Smart concept, service is always lost. But bad pictures and poor planning killed the article. Electronic CCFL SST's should never be in contact with metal, it even almost appears that the primary is coming in contact with the secondary. Those SST's won't appear to be working for very long, maybe this is why Matt always uses LED's in his designs. Fluorescent SST secondary wires should never be bunched or taped together but left loose.

Sign Builder Illustrator (52.41%)

64 Internal Pages

27.6 Article Pages

6 intro, tables & self mag promotion

If we leave out the tables and shows, then we have out of 58 pages, 52.41% magazine spam

Article Cream or Cheese?: LED Retrofitting Program Leads Company's "Green" Offering (Cheese -5)

- Does Maurico work for Quality Sign Company or something? Estimated savings between 60 to 80 percent, average two-year return on investments? Reductions in carbon footprints?

What are they talking about? Come back to earth! Please see for the truth

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3832

Article Cream or Cheese?: LED Display in Lights - Jeff Wooten (Cream +2)

segdDesign (34.93%) My new favorite magazine!

80 Internal Pages

47.5 Article Pages

7 intro, tables & show pages

If we leave out the tables and shows, then we have out of 73 pages, 34.93% magazine spam. I have to be careful about calling this 34.93%, spam. Most of their advertising is by large sign companies, just a thought.

Article Cream or Cheese?: I won't ruin it for you, just read the articles, everythign is good. Hell this magazine is so good, it smells good, open up the magazine and smell it! (Cream +5)

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I think it's also a little misleading to call it spam. You buy a magazine knowing there will be ads and paid content, just like newspapers or almost any other print media - in other words the reader solicited the media that delivers targeted advertising. Spam is generally unwanted, unsolicited and indiscriminate abuse of electronic media to blast - and in terms of printed advertising is more comparable to junk mail.

In a trade magazine, you can actually learn a great deal from the advertising itself.

I do agree that the ratio of advertising to content is often too great, though - just like newspapers TV and radio nowadays - but with fewer people actually paying for "media" they really have no choice but to bring in revenues from advertising.

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Okay, I'll agree with you on the word "spam". But the content of the advertising sure does sway what the magazine will and will not put out there for articles.

Also, even though SOT has the highest spam rate, errrr "junk", they do have the better articles of the three for electric signs. I have to give credit to Marcus Thielen and Nisa Khan, without them I think the magazine would have been more matched up with Signs & Digital Graphics.

When I pick up a trade magazine I expect it to have informative articles and not infomercialistic articles pushing products of their advertisers, in most of the mags other than SOT (the two columnists mentioned above), I don't learn anything new. a majority of the columnists aren't even in the trade or don't even know what their talking about, some are even strongly biased to certain products and talk about it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a capitalist myself! I'm all for making a buck and know advertising money is a good thing, but I think you have to take cautions in how you make it versus what your intentions are for what you put out labeling it as "journalism".

Most of the tech guys of other mags have long left because of what they were told they could write and not write about, because of who advertises with them, or who they could offend.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I think Matt from PHILADELPHIA summed it up with a to-the-point element. No experience sign companies who feed on anything that looks like a sign job and money, they are on it.

That's why they get into the sign business in the first place, because they think it's easy. That's a myth.

And that is why you need a CONTRACTOR'S LICENSE to do electrical signage. A whole lot of experience helps. And for custom sign shops, note custom, is the reason the large companies and franchises (Micky Dees, Subway, etc.) go to ELECTRICAL SIGN CONTRACTORS to have their stuff made and installed.

A jacked up sign means a burned down building or a sign coming down and killing someone.

You do not need novices doing this stuff. I am in the fab shop daily as a designer asking questions even after 10 years in the trade. I am always in the face of the installer too. They hate me cuz I ask tons of questions.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I haven't had a chance to update this thread yet, been working on some stuff in the background for things I want to bring in the forefront.

Boy is some shit going to hit the fan soon for some preople, I'll tell you what I found out soon!

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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