Jump to content

ELECTRIC SIGN SUPPLIES
If You're Looking For Premium Electric Sign Industry Components From Trim Cap, LED's, Neon Supplies, Power Supplies, Pattern Paper.  Then Please Visit Our Online Store or Feel Free To Call Us For Inquiries or Placing an Order!!
Buy Now

SIGN INSTALLER MAP
Looking for a fellow Sign Syndicate Company Member For A Sign Install or Maintenance Call?
Click Here

For Sign Company's Who Work As Subcontractors
Before You Work For A National Sign & Service Company You Need To Look At The Reviews Of These Companies Before You Work For Them. Learn When To Expect Payment From Them and What It's Like To Work For Them, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. Learn and Share Your Experiences Yourself For Others

Click Here

Sign Shop NOW Available with MET Laboratories


Recommended Posts

Are you tired of UL? Come on over to MET, we’ll keep the sign on for ya!

MET Laboratories Southeast is now offering Sign shops as an alternative to UL. MET is the first Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory accredited by OSHA for product certification in the United States. MET recently proudly celebrated its 20th Anniversary as an NRTL.

MET Southeast in Raleigh, NC has been tasked to organize and manage the new Sign Shop Program. MET Southeast prides itself on friendly service and customer satisfaction. During normal business ours, every caller is greeted by our receptionist. We don’t like answering machines and have to assume our clients don’t either. You will find our customer service staff and engineering team readily accessible and willing to help you tackle the obstacles that threaten business. You will get to speak to the person you request every time you call, however, if we are otherwise occupied with another valuable client, we can promise your call will be returned right away.

We offer the best customer service available, no hidden costs or unnecessary delays. Contact us immediately and either convert or start your sign shop with MET Southeast today.

Sign Shop Hotline 800-321-4655

Ask for Karen Hasselman or Luke Young

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Board Patron

Will you try to make your money writing tons of violations like UL?

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

express%20neon%20sig.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone had any problems with local inspectors? Many city ordinances require signs to be UL Listed. Do the inspectors know the difference?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most state "UL" because that's the household name and most common. I can imagine some building departments & inspectors will initially try to deny out of ignorance but, legally speaking they have to accept any listing laboratory.

BTW- Welcome to the board Phil!

:Welcome2:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geraldi,

There are inspectors across the United States that don't fully understand the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) System. There are 15 NRTL's of those, only 7 are authorized by OSHA to certify to UL48. Of those 7 I am only aware of 3 including MET that offer sign shops.

Here http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html is the link that explains the NRTL program. All of the NRTL's use the same UL standards to certify equipment. So technically, one could say a product is UL certified, Underwriters Laboratories testing division just didn't perform the review. It has been my experience that "UL certified" is just a term to mean third party certified. Most of us use facial tissue to blow our nose, but we refer to that as a Kleenex even if its another brand.

Regardless, if your signs are MET Listed, the inspectors are required to accept the equipment. They may still tag you for the installation though.

Brian,

MET was the nations first Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory. We've had the capability to list signs for some time. We just were'nt interested in developing a sign shop program. We continued to get calls from deserate sign manufacturers looking for an alternative to UL. I've already heard everything negative you can say about UL. Last month I recieved a call and we decided to finally establish the program for sign manufactures to at least have an alternative.

The direct answer to your question is that we tell you up front how much it will cost. We don't have any hidden fee's. We don't have an annual fee. We can't work for free Brian and it is very expensive to maintain our accredidation as an NRTL.

To ANYONE out there, if your are happy with the testing lab you are with I would advise you to stay. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But if your not, you now have an alternative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geraldi,

There are inspectors across the United States that don't fully understand the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) System. There are 15 NRTL's of those, only 7 are authorized by OSHA to certify to UL48. Of those 7 I am only aware of 3 including MET that offer sign shops.

Here http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html is the link that explains the NRTL program. All of the NRTL's use the same UL standards to certify equipment. So technically, one could say a product is UL certified, Underwriters Laboratories testing division just didn't perform the review. It has been my experience that "UL certified" is just a term to mean third party certified. Most of us use facial tissue to blow our nose, but we refer to that as a Kleenex even if its another brand.

Regardless, if your signs are MET Listed, the inspectors are required to accept the equipment. They may still tag you for the installation though.

Brian,

MET was the nations first Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory. We've had the capability to list signs for some time. We just were'nt interested in developing a sign shop program. We continued to get calls from deserate sign manufacturers looking for an alternative to UL. I've already heard everything negative you can say about UL. Last month I recieved a call and we decided to finally establish the program for sign manufactures to at least have an alternative.

The direct answer to your question is that we tell you up front how much it will cost. We don't have any hidden fee's. We don't have an annual fee. We can't work for free Brian and it is very expensive to maintain our accredidation as an NRTL.

To ANYONE out there, if your are happy with the testing lab you are with I would advise you to stay. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But if your not, you now have an alternative.

While working at that large national sign company that closed down back in January, we used an alternative listing agency for several sign designs we had. We went with Intertek/ETL in a time crunch as they had a shorter lead time for testing the designs (and were less expensive) than UL. This allowed listing a like family of signs (mostly incorporating gas pricers that didn't have UL themselves). Acceptance of the alternate mark was a concern, but to my knowledge we had no issues in the field of it being allowed. Intertek, and I imagine MET also, offered assistance should that case arise, to ensure acceptance. This is in their interest to educate and inform people.

Challenging with ETL was that we listed a design--say a family of similar signs with gas pricers or alternate lighting. We could add to the listing if we had a similar variation without additional testing. But it was not like being a UL shop where you could label anything that met the requirements. For example, to do something we had not listed yet channel letters would have involved submitting the design and possibly testing (temperature, water exclusion....). That's just the way they were set up. It was possible to get blanket listing by doing a large submittal, but we did not get that far into it. Does listing under MET allow the whole shop to produce listed products, per UL48, or is it more case-by-case? What does the startup/initial certification look like?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for reply. I do understand how the listing system works. Many people think UL is a way of doing something or a law, not just an agency that is one among several. I have one particular location or city in mind that I would like to show up to with MET label on. A video camera would be fun also. It would be a head scratching event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

esimmons76,

Thank you for the added explanation. You are absolutely correct in saying that if there were a problem with our label we would get immediately involved.

What you are referring to with ETL is an actual listing. Up until now, we have been for example with American Greetings listing individual designs to UL48, or a family of very similar designs. The listing as I'm sure you know is far more restrictive because the file is written to detail every aspect of the product. regular audits are done comparing products to the file to ensure they haven't changed. If they have, then the customer must submit a file revision request. If the product is custom or continually changing it can get very expensive and just isn't practical.

There are two specific programs that MET has and I know UL has that allow the shop to be certified. The Industrial Panel Program and now the Sign Shop Program. These programs are specifically set up anticipating variations in product and allowing that flexibility while still maintaining the NRTL's responsibility to OSHA. With MET's program, a new client would be required to have 4 follow up audits within the first year. If the sign shop passes those four audits with no discrepancies consecutively, the second year they can be allowed to drop to two audits.

There are a great many variables that affect the pricing of the program so it wouldn’t be practical for me to post pricing here. I will be glad to provide you a proposal if you would like to email me a request. The email is:

philh@productsafet.com.

Geraldi,

I think I’d like to join you at that observation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

esimmons76,

Thank you for the added explanation. You are absolutely correct in saying that if there were a problem with our label we would get immediately involved.

What you are referring to with ETL is an actual listing. Up until now, we have been for example with American Greetings listing individual designs to UL48, or a family of very similar designs. The listing as I'm sure you know is far more restrictive because the file is written to detail every aspect of the product. regular audits are done comparing products to the file to ensure they haven't changed. If they have, then the customer must submit a file revision request. If the product is custom or continually changing it can get very expensive and just isn't practical.

There are two specific programs that MET has and I know UL has that allow the shop to be certified. The Industrial Panel Program and now the Sign Shop Program. These programs are specifically set up anticipating variations in product and allowing that flexibility while still maintaining the NRTL's responsibility to OSHA. With MET's program, a new client would be required to have 4 follow up audits within the first year. If the sign shop passes those four audits with no discrepancies consecutively, the second year they can be allowed to drop to two audits.

There are a great many variables that affect the pricing of the program so it wouldn’t be practical for me to post pricing here. I will be glad to provide you a proposal if you would like to email me a request. The email is:

philh@productsafet.com.

Geraldi,

I think I’d like to join you at that observation.

Very interesting. You are right, the product listing was a little restrictive for changes/new products. But at the time was the best solution to meet product completion dates.

The Sign Shop program sounds like a good offering.

Thanks,

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, by the way Brian,

MET does not fine shops for violations. If a violation is identified, shops are usually given the opportunity to correct it before the next audit. If it is not corrected, we may chose to pull the labels. If it is initially a very obvious flagerant violation we may pull the labels on the spot. We could also possibly increase the number of audits on frequent violators.

We value our clients and we hope they value our responsibility. When there is mutual respect, the number of issues seem to deminish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beside comparisons of being a sign shop, how about product component listing? We have a lot of manufacturer's here too, how do you differ if at all from U.L.?

e.g. introducing a new power source or cabling for the industry?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Board Patron
Oh, by the way Brian,

MET does not fine shops for violations. If a violation is identified, shops are usually given the opportunity to correct it before the next audit. If it is not corrected, we may chose to pull the labels. If it is initially a very obvious flagerant violation we may pull the labels on the spot. We could also possibly increase the number of audits on frequent violators.

We value our clients and we hope they value our responsibility. When there is mutual respect, the number of issues seem to deminish.

That sounds good. I always was concerned with UL the way that you pay them to be listed and follow their info but you dare not ask a question about a sign or they come in and issue you a violation ticket (or whatever).

A very odd partnership... pay to belong to a group that comes in to your shop and fines you.

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

express%20neon%20sig.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you tired of UL? Come on over to MET, we’ll keep the sign on for ya!

MET Laboratories Southeast is now offering Sign shops as an alternative to UL. MET is the first Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory accredited by OSHA for product certification in the United States. MET recently proudly celebrated its 20th Anniversary as an NRTL.

MET Southeast in Raleigh, NC has been tasked to organize and manage the new Sign Shop Program. MET Southeast prides itself on friendly service and customer satisfaction. During normal business ours, every caller is greeted by our receptionist. We don’t like answering machines and have to assume our clients don’t either. You will find our customer service staff and engineering team readily accessible and willing to help you tackle the obstacles that threaten business. You will get to speak to the person you request every time you call, however, if we are otherwise occupied with another valuable client, we can promise your call will be returned right away.

We offer the best customer service available, no hidden costs or unnecessary delays. Contact us immediately and either convert or start your sign shop with MET Southeast today.

Sign Shop Hotline 800-321-4655

Ask for Karen Hasselman or Luke Young

Alright an alternative to UL - exactly what I been looking for! I will call you tomorrow!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you give us an idea about your pricing?......UL is way too expensive for us smaller shops. Aaron

$950 initial start up fee

First year there are four quarter shop visits @ $950 each ($4,750.00) (vs U.L

Following years there is no annual fee but two bi-annual visits (Total Year = $1,900.00)

It appears the fist year you have to take a big huge bite, but make it up in the following years.

I'm still fuzzy about the labels, is it a $650 for that?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beside comparisons of being a sign shop, how about product component listing? We have a lot of manufacturer's here too, how do you differ if at all from U.L.?

e.g. introducing a new power source or cabling for the industry?

Erik,

MET is still developing the details of other aspects of the sign shop program as run by UL. That would entail the us of UL2161. For Established shops that already have that program established, we will convert over to MET with no change. For new sign shops that want to include that in the program, that is were we are still working out the details.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Board Patron

so do you have your own SAM list or how does that work?

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

express%20neon%20sig.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you give us an idea about your pricing?......UL is way too expensive for us smaller shops. Aaron

Aaron,

I would prefer to send out specific proposals. There are some variables that affect the pricing. High Voltage has posted some of the base pricing on another thread here, and may have responded to you directly. For conversion from UL to MET, the conversion fee is $950. That covers the engineering time to convert all of the paperwork and put your file together. There are 4 Follow up audits for the first year. The first audit is $200 more because it is the introductory audit and is expected to be more in depth. If a shop completes four consecutive audits with no discrepancies, they can apply to drop down to two audits a year.

There is no annual fee. We do not charge fines for discrepancies. We do not charge fines if you do not have product on hand at the time of our audit. If we find a discrepancy, it will be noted and expected to be fixed before our next audit. If we continue to run into problems you may be subject to having your labels pulled.

For label pricing: If you chose direct imprint, it is a $600 fee a year and you must follow the format of the MET logo but you can have it etched into your manufactures name plate or you can have the labels printed yourself. If you elect just purchase the labels from MET, there is again a $600 licensing fee and then the labels are $1 ea, minimum purchase is a roll of 108.

It has been pointed out that MET is higher up front, but you see significant savings in the second year. For many of you that I have heard from that is true. Still I have heard from other shops that are paying $425/month, plus the annual fee , the label fee, ect.

We set this pricing as low as we could without losing money. Our shop was developed in response to a call for help. It has been said that UL is abusing the customers. Well, I can’t verify that. Some of you may be able too. Our existence just might cause UL to change their behavior. If not, we would welcome you to MET.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aaron,

I would prefer to send out specific proposals. There are some variables that affect the pricing. High Voltage has posted some of the base pricing on another thread here, and may have responded to you directly. For conversion from UL to MET, the conversion fee is $950. That covers the engineering time to convert all of the paperwork and put your file together. There are 4 Follow up audits for the first year. The first audit is $200 more because it is the introductory audit and is expected to be more in depth. If a shop completes four consecutive audits with no discrepancies, they can apply to drop down to two audits a year.

There is no annual fee. We do not charge fines for discrepancies. We do not charge fines if you do not have product on hand at the time of our audit. If we find a discrepancy, it will be noted and expected to be fixed before our next audit. If we continue to run into problems you may be subject to having your labels pulled.

For label pricing: If you chose direct imprint, it is a $600 fee a year and you must follow the format of the MET logo but you can have it etched into your manufactures name plate or you can have the labels printed yourself. If you elect just purchase the labels from MET, there is again a $600 licensing fee and then the labels are $1 ea, minimum purchase is a roll of 108.

It has been pointed out that MET is higher up front, but you see significant savings in the second year. For many of you that I have heard from that is true. Still I have heard from other shops that are paying $425/month, plus the annual fee , the label fee, ect.

We set this pricing as low as we could without losing money. Our shop was developed in response to a call for help. It has been said that UL is abusing the customers. Well, I can’t verify that. Some of you may be able too. Our existence just might cause UL to change their behavior. If not, we would welcome you to MET.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does your labeling system used on electric signs and channel letters, are they different? You mentioned a etched plate and a $1 per label, is that a manufacturer's or sign shop ID label that is used one for every sign or a sign listing label?

With U.L. labels there are section labels for channel letters, one every letter and then electric sign labels. I just happened to peek at an old invoice of my last order of labels 100 electric sign labels ($5.40) & 500 section labels ($27.00) + S&H ($56.81), that came to $89.21, the manufacturer's ID we have to do on our own which shows our name UL ID and electrical rating.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does your labeling system used on electric signs and channel letters, are they different? You mentioned a etched plate and a $1 per label, is that a manufacturer's or sign shop ID label that is used one for every sign or a sign listing label?

With U.L. labels there are section labels for channel letters, one every letter and then electric sign labels. I just happened to peek at an old invoice of my last order of labels 100 electric sign labels ($5.40) & 500 section labels ($27.00) + S&H ($56.81), that came to $89.21, the manufacturer's ID we have to do on our own which shows our name UL ID and electrical rating.

West Coast Sign Guy,

As for the channel letters labels, we are still open to suggestions. What would you recommend?

Your second question is a little confusing to me so let me try to answer what I think you're asking. I said "If you chose direct imprint, it is a $600 fee a year and you must follow the format of the MET logo but you can have it etched into your manufactures name plate or you can have the labels printed yourself". The manufactures name plate or "ID" as you refer to it is what I was talking about. I believe the standard requires it be made of a durable material (many use aluminum) and contain the manufacturer information and the ratings of the equipment. It is usually required to be affixed next to the main or first power source in. With the direct imprint option, you have the option of adding the MET art work to that plate. OR you can leave the plate absent of the MET logo and affix have seperate labels which you would affix right next to the name plate. For box signs, that should be all that is required. But now you bring up a good point with channel letters and the possible need for association labels. Tell me what you would like to see.

I hope that explains my statement clearly.

Best regards,

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you give us an idea about your pricing?......UL is way too expensive for us smaller shops. Aaron

Unfortunately, no matter who puts a sign program together, there is going to be a high enough expense at our end, that it is unlikely we would be able to get a program like this cost effective for smaller sign shops or lower producers. I've heard a lot of people say that not all jurisdictions are enforcing the label reuirement. I know that to be true. I might suggest that you look into having those signs that the inspectors are tagging "Field Evaluated". A field evaluation is for specific products at specific locations. The cost of the field evaluation depends mostly on were it is located in proportion to the lab doing the review. An average field evaluation wouldcost somewhere around $2000. Obviously, if you are doing a large enough quantity, it might be more cost effective to go with the sign shop. Also keep in mind. OSHA has a federal requirement that all equipment in the work place be listed or labeled by a NRTL. Although some of the inspectors may not being enforcing the NEC the same across the US, I'm pretty confident that if an accident happened with on of your signs, killing or injuring someone, OSHA would do an investigation and write sitations for the facility owner. That facility owner will likely turn around and consider legal again against the sign fabricator/Installer. If you have a third party label on your sign, there's proof that you have attempted to meet all of the safety requirements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I'd like to thank you Erik for presenting this forum and I would like to thank all of you that have called or emailed our office to date to find out more about our service. It has truly been a pleasure to speak with all of you and I look forward working together with many of you in the future.

I would also like to offer my services to the forum to try to answer any compliance questions that may come up.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
  • Create New...