Jump to content

ELECTRIC SIGN SUPPLIES
If You're Looking For Premium Electric Sign Industry Components From Trim Cap, LED's, Neon Supplies, Power Supplies, Pattern Paper.  Then Please Visit Our Online Store or Feel Free To Call Us For Inquiries or Placing an Order!!
Buy Now

SIGN INSTALLER MAP
Looking for a fellow Sign Syndicate Company Member For A Sign Install or Maintenance Call?
Click Here

For Sign Company's Who Work As Subcontractors
Before You Work For A National Sign & Service Company You Need To Look At The Reviews Of These Companies Before You Work For Them. Learn When To Expect Payment From Them and What It's Like To Work For Them, The Good, The Bad, The Ugly. Learn and Share Your Experiences Yourself For Others

Click Here

ground connections for LED channel letters


Recommended Posts

Does anyone have a vendor for the ground rings you attach to the flex connector on 1/2 conduit so that LED letters can be grounded? In the past I have bought them from N. Glantz, but they are out and don't know when they will get more. I've tried several sign supply companies and they don't even know what I'm talking about. What is everyone else doing to ground their LED channel letters? I buy mine wholesale from Dwayne Clein, so they come prewired. According to code the letters must be grounded. I find it hard to believe that the sign suppliers don't stock these.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use a grounding lug or put an o-ring terminal on the end of green wire and bolt it to the top of the letter. The only time I use grounding rings are on reverse channel letters so the flex is ground too because of the break from letter pans and flex

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You don't have to put a secondary ground on normal channel letters, your flex is considered your ground for anything under 6 foot. Reverse pans are a different story and need a ground because the face isnt contacting the flex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not adding a secondary ground. When using LED (Tetra), the wires do not jump from one letter to the next, but all return to the power supply. Typically, short pieces of flex are used for thru the wall, the flex is not extended all the way to the power supply (in transformer box). Instead, a ground ring is put on the flex connector, all of the ground rings are wired together then a wire is run to the transformer box to supply a ground for all of the letters.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here in San Diego we can just use jacketed cable exposed in no conduit.

For grounding no inspector here require grounding of LED channel letters. I do anyway, and it's less expensive to just run a green wire into the letter and bolt it to the top of the letter which is bonded to the structural ground of the PS box.

They're supposed to try and drop the requirement of letter grounds hopefully in the near future, I see no need for it being low voltage.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

W can only hope that the new NEC does away with this grounding requirement for LED letters in the next edition, just not necessary for this voltage. My local inspector is not a hardass (actually really easy to work with), but the code is the code. I hate to put holes in the tops of the letters, just another place for moisture to get in. When we work for some of the national companies, they require conduit thru the wall, and the ground ring. I've used these several times, but can't find a vendor now that has any in stock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These are just alternatives if you can't find D-rings, everyone has their preferences

There is a stocking problem with these from my local suppliers as well, Interstate, Montroy & N. Glantz. Either someone buys them up or they don't get enough in. You most likely have a bigger chance of getting moisture in though the trim cap mold around the letter than a tightened bolt on top, or side or back of a letter, than again I'm in San Diego and we don't get huge outpours of rain but it does get humid here and we do get the salt air.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See in Vegas aal the secondary LED wire is in flex and through one way or another its all connected, hence grounding it all, are all your LED wires exposed?

I thought this was very clever when you told me this yesterday when I was at your shop. Good meeting with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought this was very clever when you told me this yesterday when I was at your shop. Good meeting with you.

You can run the ground wire in the same flex and through the same hole as the LED wire, and it can remain exposed in the wall without conduit or even a plastic jacket. The ground rings are an Electrobits product so maybe call them directly for a spplier with inventory. I heard that Electrobits was "reorganizing," not sure if this is true or not.

When some of the cities down here in Florida require that low voltage systems require ground, despite the 411 code where it states that nothing less than 60v's shall be grounded, we use a terminal bar and bring all the grounds back to a common bar and then back to the house ground. This is only required if we don't use metallic flex, which bonds the letters as long as all contacts are metal to metal and jump together in some way back to the can.

I agree that ground low voltage is a waste but te inspectors need something to gripe to about and God forbid you express your knowledge of your choosen profession.

As I always say, those who can do, those who can't work for the city!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can run the ground wire in the same flex and through the same hole as the LED wire, and it can remain exposed in the wall without conduit or even a plastic jacket. The ground rings are an Electrobits product so maybe call them directly for a spplier with inventory. I heard that Electrobits was "reorganizing," not sure if this is true or not.

When some of the cities down here in Florida require that low voltage systems require ground, despite the 411 code where it states that nothing less than 60v's shall be grounded, we use a terminal bar and bring all the grounds back to a common bar and then back to the house ground. This is only required if we don't use metallic flex, which bonds the letters as long as all contacts are metal to metal and jump together in some way back to the can.

I agree that ground low voltage is a waste but te inspectors need something to gripe to about and God forbid you express your knowledge of your choosen profession.

As I always say, those who can do, those who can't work for the city!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

W can only hope that the new NEC does away with this grounding requirement for LED letters in the next edition, just not necessary for this voltage. My local inspector is not a hardass (actually really easy to work with), but the code is the code. I hate to put holes in the tops of the letters, just another place for moisture to get in. When we work for some of the national companies, they require conduit thru the wall, and the ground ring. I've used these several times, but can't find a vendor now that has any in stock.

The earliest we will see a change in the NEC concerning grounding of low voltage channel letters will probably be 2012. Some of the inspectors in my area do not require low voltage to be grounded. The inspectors that do, require a green wire, and do not accept the flex at any length.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the only reason they are able to make us bond the channel letters is because of article 600.

600.24 addresses class 2 wiring systems in signs and says you have to comply with 600.7. Which has you bonding your LED letters in the exact same manner you would for neon.

Running a grounding or bonding conductor outside of conduit is not allowed. 600.7 (b)(7)(b)(7) (b)Bonding conductors installed externally of a sign or raceway shall be protected from physical damage.

The simplest solution is to use a manufactured cable #14 in size with the required green wire. No conduit required then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This includes proper grounding and bonding of the sign. 6. Mount the LED power ... C. Gelcore power supplies must be connected to the channel letter secondary leads with an enclosed Gelcore IDC splice connector.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the only reason they are able to make us bond the channel letters is because of article 600.

600.24 addresses class 2 wiring systems in signs and says you have to comply with 600.7. Which has you bonding your LED letters in the exact same manner you would for neon.

Running a grounding or bonding conductor outside of conduit is not allowed. 600.7 (b)(7)(b)(7) (b)Bonding conductors installed externally of a sign or raceway shall be protected from physical damage.

The simplest solution is to use a manufactured cable #14 in size with the required green wire. No conduit required then.

600-7 second paragraph states when non-metallic conduit is used and a ground wire is required, it shall be installed separate and remote from the non metallic conduit. I guess its different for nonmetallic conduit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not really, there would be an exception saying that if you use non-metalic conduit that you can run the ground or bond unprotected.

Instead it says the bonding conductor must comply with both A and B. A says it must be a minimum of #14 and be copper. B says it has to be protected from physical damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exposed to physical damage is open to the inspectors interpretation. You know Pines, and both Kay and AJ approve of using 14ga copper without conduit as long as the jacket is rated for direct sun exposure or plennum rated use for wiring were the back wall is above a drop ceiling or interior of the store. If you know AJ he's by the book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is an interesting passage of the NEC 600.7B "Unprotected".

I've had a few inspectors always tell me that they want to see the letter bonds not in the conduit with the GTO (As that is not a good idea), but outside the conduit and left exposed in the crawl spaces. This is the way I have done it for a while now. I virtual wire just about every set of channel letters these days anyway and the runs are so short that the flex is the bond and no need for green wire bonding. The only time I run green wire is for Reverse Pan and LumaHaze channel letters, in those, it's just from wire from the ground ring to the metal return or pan.

I wonder if unprotected means left exposed to the elements. I have not had an issue yet with this, be interesting to hear the view point of a few electrical inspectors

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone have a vendor for the ground rings you attach to the flex connector on 1/2 conduit so that LED letters can be grounded? In the past I have bought them from N. Glantz, but they are out and don't know when they will get more. I've tried several sign supply companies and they don't even know what I'm talking about. What is everyone else doing to ground their LED channel letters? I buy mine wholesale from Dwayne Clein, so they come prewired. According to code the letters must be grounded. I find it hard to believe that the sign suppliers don't stock these.

Master's Technology has ground rings and most electrical wholesalers as well. Best of luck and keep grounding.

Randy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...

Here in San Diego we can just use jacketed cable exposed in no conduit.

For grounding no inspector here require grounding of LED channel letters. I do anyway, and it's less expensive to just run a green wire into the letter and bolt it to the top of the letter which is bonded to the structural ground of the PS box.

They're supposed to try and drop the requirement of letter grounds hopefully in the near future, I see no need for it being low voltage.

I'm likely wrong about this, but I have always assumed that the reason the NEC specifies grounding even for low voltage channel letters isn't because of the potential hazard from stray 12 dc, but rather because the NEC is against the idea of allowing any large potentially electrifiable thing to be ungrounded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In three more months the code changes for no more ground. Anyone know if it actually Starts/takes effect in October?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone have a vendor for the ground rings you attach to the flex connector on 1/2 conduit so that LED letters can be grounded? In the past I have bought them from N. Glantz, but they are out and don't know when they will get more. I've tried several sign supply companies and they don't even know what I'm talking about. What is everyone else doing to ground their LED channel letters? I buy mine wholesale from Dwayne Clein, so they come prewired. According to code the letters must be grounded. I find it hard to believe that the sign suppliers don't stock these.

You can buy grounding rings and grounding lock rings at any electrical supplier. Most of the connector companies make them; just be sure your connectors or couplings are suitable for use as an "Equipment Grounding Conductor" Your only hope at the sign suppliers would be a Master's product.

Neonsignfire

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can buy grounding rings and grounding lock rings at any electrical supplier. Most of the connector companies make them; just be sure your connectors or couplings are suitable for use as an "Equipment Grounding Conductor" Your only hope at the sign suppliers would be a Master's product.

Neonsignfire

Would it not be a code violation to use a grounding bushing outside of an enclosure? After all, if the bushing is outside of an enclosure, than the ground wire has to be exposed and not protected. Or am I wrong yet again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
  • Create New...