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Have you read the fine print in National Sign Co. contracts?


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I spent some time the other day reading through the fine print in a contract. The contract was from a National Sign & Lighting Maintenance Co. in PA. One of their project managers badly needed help on a project however after reading the contract terms I declined to sign the agreement. I told them I was will willing to use our standard agreement which protects both parties equally and they said they were required to use their contract. I was willing to use their agreement if we removed several clauses in the contract which I though were unreasonable. They declined. So I decided to google them and lo and behold they were listed as a rip off in the rip off reports.

See if you agree the clauses in their contract are unreasonable. Below are the sections I thought were very unreasonable:

1. If they did not pay you on time or pay you or at all you had to agreed not to file a mechanics or material mans lien on the property where the work was performed. :bitchin:

2. You also had to agreed they could sue you if you filed a lien. :conspire: and you would pay for "their attorneys fees

3. You had to agreed that they did not have to pay you until their customer paid them! :PutEmUp:

I don't know about you but I like a win/ win situation and this contract was a definite win/lose contract. Win for them and lose for the serviceman or installer. Lots of warning lights went off in my head. So the moral of this story is please read the contract "before"you sign it and avoid doing business with people like these as they are definitely not looking out for you. These type of people always seem to operate in a frenzy. Example I need this project done right away can you drop everything and help me. Don't get suckered in. And remember the saying "Profit Before Vanity" Just because it looks like a large profitable job for a national company doesn't mean it is profitable. The large companies have someone on payroll and their only job is to shave money off projects and find the cheapest providers. Some sign companies want their Vanity Stroked because they want to brag to others and say they did a big project. They may have landed a big project but was it profitable and were they able to finish it honestly and pay all their installers and suppliers? So remember PROFIT before VANITY and don't be lured by false verbal promises - read those contracts! That is where the true intentions of a company are revealed. If we all read our contracts and avoid these companies that will leave room for honest sign companies to flourish and the others will fail.

I believe a contract should protect both parties equally! Any of you have a horror story about contracts?

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This isn't Action National Sign & Lighting is it?

I can't imagine it to be, BUT I would laugh whatever company gave me such a contract right off the phone. I still question the legality of such national lighting companies who don't carry contractors licenses in states that require them in signing of contracts with said clients. This is like a Sign A Rama or Fast Signs who do not possess licenses to legally sub-contract jobs.

I think state contractors boards need to start looking at these companies that seem to pop up out of nowhere.

Me being in California a lighting company in Kentucky who would like to hire me would have to have a contractors license in CA to perform such work sub-contracting me out. They and you can sign all you want, but the laws of California will supersede. That Owner of Kentucky will face heavy fines and jail should the state be made aware.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • Board Patron

Alan, I've been sent contracts similar to the one National Signs tried to get you to sign. What BS! I never ever sign one of those "contracts" until I've gone thru it with a fine tooth comb. And I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's illegal to force a subcontractor to give up a right to lien a job. And I make sure they understand that we are working for them and they gotta pay us regardless of their contract with the client.

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This isn't Action National Sign & Lighting is it?

I can't imagine it to be, BUT I would laugh whatever company gave me such a contract right off the phone. I still question the legality of such national lighting companies who don't carry contractors licenses in states that require them in signing of contracts with said clients. This is like a Sign A Rama or Fast Signs who do not possess licenses to legally sub-contract jobs.

I think state contractors boards need to start looking at these companies that seem to pop up out of nowhere.

Me being in California a lighting company in Kentucky who would like to hire me would have to have a contractors license in CA to perform such work sub-contracting me out. They and you can sign all you want, but the laws of California will supersede. That Owner of Kentucky will face heavy fines and jail should the state be made aware.

In GA the contractor laws are different. Everyone should be familiar will your state laws concerning contracting and sub contracting. Here is the link to the GA site explaining the contractor law. http://sos.georgia.gov/plb/faqs/49%20faqs.htm. Also some of the contract provisions that would not hold up in CA are binding in GA and other states. Our attorney normally charges about $300 to review and red line a contract. On a big project or if you are going to have an ongoing work relationship based a contract then you should have the contract reviewed by an attorney. After a while you should be able to pick out the bad one sided contracts yourself with out the attorney. :P

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Alan, I've been sent contracts similar to the one National Signs tried to get you to sign. What BS! I never ever sign one of those "contracts" until I've gone thru it with a fine tooth comb. And I'm not a lawyer, but I think it's illegal to force a subcontractor to give up a right to lien a job. And I make sure they understand that we are working for them and they gotta pay us regardless of their contract with the client.

We normally read through the contract and then have our attorney review it. Sometimes he will call back on certain contracts we've sent him and say I hope you didn't sign that contract! jokingly knowing we had not.

Remember there are sharks out there :bullethole: and tuna (clueless) :blink: that will get you in trouble. Hang out with the porpoises in life and you will be OK. They look out for each other.

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  • !llumenati

you may want to addon your own contracts that the signageyou are installing or serviceing becomes your property until the payment terms you agree on are met. Have the property manager or store owners also sign it agreeing that you are allowed to legally not install, remove or permanenty disconnect it untill payment is made.

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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Remember there are sharks out there :bullethole: and tuna (clueless) :blink: that will get you in trouble. Hang out with the porpoises in life and you will be OK. They look out for each other.

Could not agree with you more. At the end of the day we are humans and interfacing with the ones you get along with and respect is the best way to do business. And you know, with those types of business relationships you rarely if ever need a contract.

Good analogy Alan, appreciate the thought.

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so what this is basically saying is

1. I have no faith in my customer's ability to pay my bill so,

2. I am asking you to share the risk and yet you will have no control, but

3. You will not even be able to come after me

So - just give me your money and just hope and pray a lot....

Now that would be very tough to write a business plan based on that school of thought.

THat isnt managing Risk - that is managing your ability to be taken advantage of.

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Could not agree with you more. At the end of the day we are humans and interfacing with the ones you get along with and respect is the best way to do business. And you know, with those types of business relationships you rarely if ever need a contract.

Good analogy Alan, appreciate the thought.

In regard to most situations An old saying goes like this: Trust in God. but tie your horse.

Even though I have many handshake agreements with honorable people when there are large stakes involved I always have a written agreement. So while it is very nice to have trusting business relationships with respect for each other a contract is always a good idea when there is a large amount. I have ruined a few business friendships over the years due to lack of a written agreement which could have been avoided had a written agreement been in place. You just have to decide what you can live without if someone defaults and just write it off on the books and your heart.

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so what this is basically saying is

1. I have no faith in my customer's ability to pay my bill so,

2. I am asking you to share the risk and yet you will have no control, but

3. You will not even be able to come after me

So - just give me your money and just hope and pray a lot....

Now that would be very tough to write a business plan based on that school of thought.

THat isnt managing Risk - that is managing your ability to be taken advantage of.

It seems to either boil down to one or two thoughts:

1. The sale person is not managing the sale with the correct agreement in place with the large corporate customer. In others words their large corporate customer has them over the barrel. This is Win Lose situation and not a good place to be. I always go with Win Win or NO Deal. If the sales people embraced this philosophy they would set up deals accordingly so everyone prospers.

2. Or worse they have Win Win sales contracts with their large corporate customers and have these one sided ( Win Lose) contracts for their installers and service techs in place because........ they are ............??? The top decision makers at the national Co. realize that most small sign installation & maintenance companies don't have the money to invest on attorneys fees or have the time to take away from their business to pursue legal matters. So the top decision makers for some of the national lighting companies are making a calculated decision that most small companies won't do anything so this will increase their profit margin. And they figure that the rare time someone does go legal on them then they can decide how they will settle without spending too much. For example they may try to give you 50 to 75% of what they owe you or not at all if you have signed the one sided contract. They just want to give you enough so you will go away. What does this say about the owners or top decision makers for those types of companies?

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I agree. You have to be very careful with some of these companies. For example we had one client who sent us an order for a survey. We did the survey and quoted the repairs. The client declined the repairs. They in turn closed the PO and as we read on their PO in the many lines was an item that the sales person over looked which said they didn't pay for surveys only the repair work it's self!

Absolutely rediculous! It's getting very scary out there, read carefully and be aware!

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I agree. You have to be very careful with some of these companies. For example we had one client who sent us an order for a survey. We did the survey and quoted the repairs. The client declined the repairs. They in turn closed the PO and as we read on their PO in the many lines was an item that the sales person over looked which said they didn't pay for surveys only the repair work it's self!

Absolutely rediculous! It's getting very scary out there, read carefully and be aware!

Yes we all must watch out for ourselves! If we don't then who will? I remember the days when you could do 90% of your business with a handshake and a verbal agreement. Now it is the opposite!

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I took a sales position with a company in Ohio a few years back. They asured me that they always paid the subcontractors on time. After a few months I found that the not only did they not pay the subcontractors they re-worded their purchase orders stating that they would not pay until they got paid and added the lien clause ( I would imagine they fell into the same trap and were just trying to pass it on) . Needless to say I found employment elcewhere. I have worked in the signage industry for over fifteen years. My number one rule is that you take care of the people that take care of you. I have spent years developing great relationships with excelent subcontractors. My subcontractors are my lifeline, they are my eyes and ears in the field. I hold them in the highest regard! You can not survive without these hard working individuals, they deserve to get paid and paid on time! If I have to borrow money, these guys are going to get paid!

Unfortunately not everyone has my regard for subcontractors. Please read the contracts, you can not simply trust the person you are speaking with. You simply have to make sure you protect yourself from these greedy buggers! Make sure you have every detail in writing and signed before you even schedule the work.

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I took a sales position with a company in Ohio a few years back. They asured me that they always paid the subcontractors on time. After a few months I found that the not only did they not pay the subcontractors they re-worded their purchase orders stating that they would not pay until they got paid and added the lien clause ( I would imagine they fell into the same trap and were just trying to pass it on) . Needless to say I found employment elsewhere. I have worked in the signage industry for over fifteen years. My number one rule is that you take care of the people that take care of you. I have spent years developing great relationships with excelent subcontractors. My subcontractors are my lifeline, they are my eyes and ears in the field. I hold them in the highest regard! You can not survive without these hard working individuals, they deserve to get paid and paid on time! If I have to borrow money, these guys are going to get paid!

Unfortunately not everyone has my regard for subcontractors. Please read the contracts, you can not simply trust the person you are speaking with. You simply have to make sure you protect yourself from these greedy buggers! Make sure you have every detail in writing and signed before you even schedule the work.

Brenda thank you for not looking the other way when you noticed the absence of ethics at your previous company! If more people would stand up for good business ethics then we would all be better off. I wish more people were like you.

Some weak people look the other way to avoid losing their job and say it's not my business I don't own the company however that's like driving the get away car! Gee honest Judge I didn't rob the bank! I only drove the car. Guilty by association!

And Brenda what good advice: "Make sure you have every detail in writing and signed before you even schedule the work."

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Brenda thank you for not looking the other way when you noticed the absence of ethics at your previous company! If more people would stand up for good business ethics then we would all be better off. I wish more people were like you.

Some weak people look the other way to avoid losing their job and say it's not my business I don't own the company however that's like driving the get away car! Gee honest Judge I didn't rob the bank! I only drove the car. Guilty by association!

And Brenda what good advice: "Make sure you have every detail in writing and signed before you even schedule the work."

I guess I was fortunate to have great parents that tought me that right is right and wrong is wrong, two rights never make up for one wrong! Most subcontractors that I have worked with have gone above and beyond what I have expected of them. On the other hand If I did not specify a detail in the purchase order (thinking it was just common sense) others simply did not do that portion of the work "My Bad" They should not do anything I did not put in the contract, but I greatly appreciate the ones who saw the whole project being inclusive.

I simply could not work for anyone who took advantage of others.

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