Annual Saving? Show me the money!

[Erik Sine]

Holiday Inn® to Save Over $4 Million Annually with Massive Makeover of Familiar Green Signage Using GE LED Lighting

By General Electric

This massive signage project involves more than 20 sign manufacturers creating 9,300 channel letter and box signs with high-performance GE Tetra LED lighting inside. There are more than 270 different lighting configurations across five Holiday Inn brands, where the signs range from 11 inches high to as large as 8 feet. In addition to new signage, the Holiday Inn brand relaunch is focusing on the things that matter most to guests. Changes include new outdoor lighting, building exterior updates and new landscaping; a redesigned lobby with a new, de-cluttered reception desk and a signature scent and music program; refreshed guest rooms include new bedding, a selection of firm and soft pillows and redesigned bathroom features; and a new service training program. The global estate of Holiday Inn brand hotels is expected to be relaunched by the end of 2010.

“We are increasing quality and driving consistency across all Holiday Inn properties, and being more contemporary with this major rebranding. It only makes sense to use the greenest signage solution possible,” says Angela Brav, chief operating officer, North America, InterContinental Hotels Group. “We are replacing more than 9,300 signs across several countries, so the energy savings GE’s LED systems are providing is significant. Plus, they offer proven reliability for even greater savings from a maintenance standpoint and improved brand consistency across all properties.”

Leaner and Greener

Holiday Inn expects to cut energy usage by more than half and achieve an estimated 52 percent reduction in kilowatt hours with signs lit an average of 12 hours per day, 365 days per year. That represents an estimated reduction of 8,700 metric tons of carbon dioxide annually or the equivalent of planting more than 2,300 acres of trees per year. The GE Tetra® LED systems are significantly more energy efficient than commonly used neon or fluorescent, and they overcome performance challenges fluorescent can encounter in cold climates.

“GE has more than 19 million feet of Tetra LED lighting installed with less than a 0.05 percent warranty return rate,” says Eric Stevenson, GE’s global product manager – signage. “Holiday Inn recognized the importance of this long-term, real-world reliability in choosing a signage solution that would deliver years of consistent, virtually maintenance-free operation.”

Built to Scale

In addition to proven reliability, Holiday Inn and its signage consultant/project manager, Sign Management Consultants, sought an LED systems supplier that could carry out such a large project under tight deadlines.

“A project of this scale requires suppliers that can deliver. We were confident GE had a variety of LED solutions to meet Holiday Inn’s needs,” says Mark Burkett, vice president, Sign Management Consultants. “In total, more than one million feet of GE Tetra® LED lighting systems will be installed across 3,200 properties. More than a year into the re-launch, they continue to deliver.”

The Tetra® LED lighting systems used in this program include Tetra® Power White and Tetra® MAX for channel letters, and Tetra® PowerGrid for box signs. Tetra® Power White is a high-performance LED system that delivers up to 66 lumens of brilliant white light per module. Tetra® PowerGrid is a high-brightness, modular system that is easy to install and lasts up to four times longer than T12HO fluorescents. All three lighting systems last up to 50,000 hours and are RoHS compliant, containing no lead, mercury or glass.

About Holiday Inn

With nearly 1,400 hotels worldwide, Holiday Inn Hotels and Resorts is the most widely recognized lodging brand in the world. In fact, Holiday Inn was one of the first international hotel brands to establish a presence in China in 1984. Holiday Inn Hotels and Resorts provides the services that business travelers need, while also offering a comfortable atmosphere where all people can relax and enjoy amenities such as restaurants and room service, swimming pools, fitness centers and comfortable lounges. The casual atmosphere and amenities such as meeting and on-site business facilities, KidSuites rooms, Kids Eat and Stay Free programs, and the ability to earn Priority Club Rewards points that can be redeemed for great merchandise, airline miles or free room nights, demonstrate the long-standing commitment of Holiday Inn Hotels and Resorts to serving travelers and have helped to establish the brand as "America's Favorite Hotel." For more information about Holiday Inn Hotels and Resorts or to book reservations, call 1-800-HOLIDAY or visit http://www.holidayinn.com/.

About Lumination, LLC

Lumination, LLC, a subsidiary of General Electric Company (NYSE:GE), drives innovation, energy efficiency and cost savings for customers that use LED products, systems and solutions. Fitted with robust, low–voltage, long–life LED light engines, Lumination solutions deliver world–class, GE–grade performance. For more information, please visit www.lumination.com.

[Erik Sine]

GE...SHOW ME THE MOOOOONEY!!!

I don't even know where to begin with this "Save The Tree's" article.

GE, please show me the true numbers on how you are saving Holiday Inn $4 Million dollars annually. You build good long lasting products, but you're also the most expensive. You are making comparisons to neon and Fluorescent lamps for light sources in existing and new signs

Holiday Inn expects to cut energy usage by more than half and achieve an estimated 52 percent reduction in kilowatt hours with signs lit an average of 12 hours per day, 365 days per year. That represents an estimated reduction of 8,700 metric tons of carbon dioxide annually or the equivalent of planting more than 2,300 acres of trees per year. The GE Tetra® LED systems are significantly more energy efficient than commonly used neon or fluorescent, and they overcome performance challenges fluorescent can encounter in cold climates.

Significantly more??? No! Where do you get 2,300 more trees per year? There are more trees in America now than there were when the horse and buggy made their way westward. Now GE is saving the planet?

The Tetra® LED lighting systems used in this program include Tetra® Power White and Tetra® MAX for channel letters, and Tetra® PowerGrid for box signs. Tetra® Power White is a high-performance LED system that delivers up to 66 lumens of brilliant white light per module. Tetra® PowerGrid is a high-brightness, modular system that is easy to install and lasts up to four times longer than T12HO fluorescents. All three lighting systems last up to 50,000 hours and are RoHS compliant, containing no lead, mercury or glass.

Nice Scare tactic marketing pitch "containing no lead, mercury or glass." Everything about neon & fluorescents are 99.99% recyclable and reused. As a lamp company you already know this.

Again I will post a snipit from a previous thread on Energy Savings from Honesty in Trade Magazine Articles, Part II

ENERGY SAVING!!!

Another term that gets thrown around when it comes to marketing and thrown in our faces when it comes to light sources. What they always fail to mention in these "infomercial" articles when they do their promoting is how temperature affects both light sources. The most important question should be, where is the sign going? How do wholesalers who sell only LED's for their channel letters feel about shipping an LED sign to Maui? Las Vegas? Arizona? Mexico? Maybe there is a lack, in THEIR expertise? I'll leave that question to be answered by the true experts.

I'm going to pick on GE here since they are mentioned. I have nothing bad to say about GE's LED's, they are a very good product with very little light degradation over time (see "The Great White Hope Project"). Energy Savings are thrown around all the time and we can't seem to not get hit with that promotional word.

Let's take some figures straight out of The Great White Hope Project .

Let's look at our 15 channel letter project of a light source that would have the same footage as CCFL or "neon" (so the LED only vendor can comprehend and follow along) having approx 6' for material (lamps) for each letter

GE Power White Sign (210 watts)

GE Power White LED's are $27 a foot @ two modules per foot. It will cost approximately $75 a year to light that 15 letter sign up. The footage will be 90' of LED's that's 180 Power White Modules costing a customer $2,430.00 in LED's and probably four power sources at a $80 a pop = $320.00. I'm not going to factor in all the small special connectors needed. For the first day this sign is lit you are paying $2,750 in LED and PS costs above the other material cost for the sign.

CCFL (Neon) 13mm lamps (345 watts)

Elite Lamp Technologies CCFL lamps are priced on average $35.00 each for 6 linear foot lamps. It will cost approximately $113.00 a year to light this 15 letter sign up. The total footage of glass is 90 linear feet costing the customer $525.00. You have two choices here you can choose two magnetic transformers @ $90.00 each or make each letter a dedicated electronic transformer for each letter. For this "energy savings" sake I will make it with electronic transformers. 15 electronic transformers $30.00 each = $450.00 I will go so far as to add some more cost for GTO & Electrode caps, partial supply maybe $113.00 for good silicone products.

Let's look at the total cost above the channel letter fabrication

GE Power White =$2,750.00

Elite CCFL (Neon) = $1,088.00

The cost difference is $1,662.00 more you will pay going LED for your light source over a CCFL system.

The cost saving in annual power consumption in the 15 letter sign is $38 a year using LED's over CCFL

You would have to have your channel letter sign with GE Power Whites for at least 45 years just to break even with the cost it took to make a CCFL illuminated channel letter set. I'm also sure that that 45 years waaaaay exceeds the lamp life of those LED's so figure in the costs of about four more retrofit jobs should that sign still be around with no re-branding

I'm curious, this article is so one sided. I didn't see any CCFL or (Neon) manufacturer's mentioned in this article by the Fraggle?

*Source The Great White Hope Project Again, choose the best light source for the sign application, not just LED of CCFL because you think you are saving your client money somewhere. The choice of using LED's over CCFL have NOTHING more to do with saving money in energy consumption. You choice for using LED's has to be Dependability (pending vendor) & Convenience (some time saved in labor, some). Most Importantly, WHERE is the sign going, Alaska or Arizona, SHOULD be your biggest deciding factor. Also, some reason to choose LED's over CCFL is a lack of options to choose or find a tube bender (Neon Guy) close by. One of the reasons some of these wholesalers lack the CCFL and only offer LED's as an option in their is because they don't employ anyone with the "know how" or they don't have the "know how", that's their fault! Keep your real options open and find someone who offers both light sources.

I'm still very surprised, well I take that back no I'm not. There is a HUGE lack in talks in these trade magazine infomercial articles about the options of Tri-Phoshpor & RE Phosphor coated lamps. They still seem to be doing their comparisons with no mention of them. I've been using these types of lamps in my channel letters for a couple years now. BIG difference over the conventional halo-phosphate lamps like 6500 snow white and colors. Much more punch and longevity!

19 million feet of Tetra? $513,000,000.00 at $27 a foot, vs $109,250,000.00 in higher quality Tri-Phosphor lamps CCFL lamps. Holiday Inn is paying $403,750,000.00 for GE's Tetra over Neon.

Annual Power consumption $.12 KWH (Depending on climate)

GE: $22,160,291.10

Neon: $31,195,611.40

GE saves $9,000,000 in annual energy over Neon. BUT, Leaving a surplus of $403,750.000 in costs by going GE Tetra LED over Tri-Phoshpor Neon

In costs for the LED vs Neon, Holiday Inn will break even in 41 years if they don't re-brand and don't retrofit way past the 50,000 hour claim just to make up the annual energy cost savings.

I know these are very, very rough estimates, If I'm wrong on this, PLEASE tell me where I'm wrong and correct me.

The positive side to this? A bunch of sign companies are making the dough $$$$ for all the re-branding & retrofits from the Stimulus package that Holiday Inn is funding for itself. So we won't hear from those sign companies here on this matter. What are you gonna do, bite the hand that feeds you.

[Brian]

right behind you captain! That is total bull shit propaganda!!!!!

[Erik Sine]

If my figures are in the right ballpark which give or take a couple of million, lol. This is the last we will hear about it, no company in their right mind would comment on this as being a potential vendor or installer.

What should have been done, is what Chase Bank smartly did with their specs. A hybrid plan of both Tri-Phosphor lamps (neon) and LED channel letters depending on size of the letters and region. I'm not going to be dumb and try to hold someone back from making a buck with a sizable contract & don't get me wrong. I just thought I'd be responsible and at least post about what I think is true, and not true since this was thrown into the public arena.

Just trying to be honest as possible and objective, I'll go back to pop-riveting my returns now in the humid heat.

[fishing nut]

Excellent points.

I think in the article GE was stating that they had 19 million feet in operation as a whole. That still works out to 28,000 (3 per foot) modules that failed that are reported or returned. I would really like to see what the total footage that would be required vs. moduals for the rebranding.

[manuellynch]

Ok guys - GE is doing something they can do - show that they own the media as well.

I know GE is a bit concerned when some of the largest chains in the world are asking why they should pay so much more for a GE product when our product is brighter, has same degradation curve, has same lifetime...

They may save on energy cost but what is the actual return on investment over the original cost vs the cost of what was there?

Good PR stunt....but we have ours coming up on Sept 15th..... but ours will be brighter, and much lower cost, and last much much longer...and...well I guess I am giving away the suprise.

Good points Erik - as always you are not being a very good Sheeple and just using the GE story and the data!!!

[saneon]

GE...SHOW ME THE MOOOOONEY!!!

I don't even know where to begin with this "Save The Tree's" article.

GE, please show me the true numbers on how you are saving Holiday Inn $4 Million dollars annually. You build good long lasting products, but you're also the most expensive. You are making comparisons to neon and Fluorescent lamps for light sources in existing and new signs

Significantly more??? No! Where do you get 2,300 more trees per year? There are more trees in America now than there were when the horse and buggy made their way westward. Now GE is saving the planet?

Nice Scare tactic marketing pitch "containing no lead, mercury or glass." Everything about neon & fluorescents are 99.99% recyclable and reused. As a lamp company you already know this.

Again I will post a snipit from a previous thread on Energy Savings from Honesty in Trade Magazine Articles, Part II

19 million feet of Tetra? $513,000,000.00 at $27 a foot, vs $109,250,000.00 in higher quality Tri-Phosphor lamps CCFL lamps. Holiday Inn is paying $403,750,000.00 for GE's Tetra over Neon.

Annual Power consumption $.12 KWH (Depending on climate)

GE: $22,160,291.10

Neon: $31,195,611.40

GE saves $9,000,000 in annual energy over Neon. BUT, Leaving a surplus of $403,750.000 in costs by going GE Tetra LED over Tri-Phoshpor Neon

In costs for the LED vs Neon, Holiday Inn will break even in 41 years if they don't re-brand and don't retrofit way past the 50,000 hour claim just to make up the annual energy cost savings.

I know these are very, very rough estimates, If I'm wrong on this, PLEASE tell me where I'm wrong and correct me.

The positive side to this? A bunch of sign companies are making the dough $$$$ for all the re-branding & retrofits from the Stimulus package that Holiday Inn is funding for itself. So we won't hear from those sign companies here on this matter. What are you gonna do, bite the hand that feeds you.

Do the claims of these LED companies regarding energy savings go completely unchallenged ? Bogus claims of enormous enegy savings nearly cost me a large resort expansion project here in Orlando. If you google "caliper summary report" click on doe solid-state lighting caliper program , go to round 6 of product testing. Here you will find results of testing done by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory for the US Department of Energy. Their findings shed some light on all of the LED bullshit. "A preponderance of inaccurate and misleading performance claims" ia a statement straight out of the report. pg.18.

[manuellynch]

Do the claims of these LED companies regarding energy savings go completely unchallenged ? Bogus claims of enormous enegy savings nearly cost me a large resort expansion project here in Orlando. If you google "caliper summary report" click on doe solid-state lighting caliper program , go to round 6 of product testing. Here you will find results of testing done by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory for the US Department of Energy. Their findings shed some light on all of the LED bullshit. "A preponderance of inaccurate and misleading performance claims" ia a statement straight out of the report. pg.18.

DOE gets upset when people use LED systems that are not made by CREE - yes thats right...they have invested so much R&D dollars in CREE that if you dont use them you are using crap. Lets see - Nichia's parts are consistently higher output and they are much bigger than CREE - probably 5X bigger!

Oh and one more thing - Nichia isnt a USA public company...now how would any politician make any money off a private Japanese company - you have to make money off CREE in the stock market!!!

The reports done by PNL are fantastic - in fact they are so great that I might let you know that their recommendations ARE NOT used by Pulte Homes, the most energy efficient homebuilder in the world - why??? Because what the DOE recommends is SO DAMN EXPENSIVE AND NOT PRACTICAL.

In fact Pulte Homes far exceeds the performance metrics set forth by Energy Star and the DOE.

So on one hand people can be upset about the debate on healthcare but we cant see a parallel to what the DOE and PNL are doing? Lets get the government involved in lighting....hmmm...now that is smart.

Having been the Director of Technology for Sea Gull Lighting, the world's leading manufacturer of energy efficient lighting, I will tell you that they never adopted using LEDs - why - because what Energy Star approved was too much money!!!

WHAT EVERYONE IS MISSING IS THAT GE SAVED THEM $X PER YEAR IN POWER - BUT WHAT DID IT COST TO INVEST TO GET THAT SAVINGS? IF THE ROI WAS MORE THAN 6 MONTHS THAN IT WAS A FOOLISH INVESTMENT IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

[LiteGirl]

Funny picture of Tom

[saneon]

DOE gets upset when people use LED systems that are not made by CREE - yes thats right...they have invested so much R&D dollars in CREE that if you dont use them you are using crap. Lets see - Nichia's parts are consistently higher output and they are much bigger than CREE - probably 5X bigger!

Oh and one more thing - Nichia isnt a USA public company...now how would any politician make any money off a private Japanese company - you have to make money off CREE in the stock market!!!

The reports done by PNL are fantastic - in fact they are so great that I might let you know that their recommendations ARE NOT used by Pulte Homes, the most energy efficient homebuilder in the world - why??? Because what the DOE recommends is SO DAMN EXPENSIVE AND NOT PRACTICAL.

In fact Pulte Homes far exceeds the performance metrics set forth by Energy Star and the DOE.

So on one hand people can be upset about the debate on healthcare but we cant see a parallel to what the DOE and PNL are doing? Lets get the government involved in lighting....hmmm...now that is smart.

Having been the Director of Technology for Sea Gull Lighting, the world's leading manufacturer of energy efficient lighting, I will tell you that they never adopted using LEDs - why - because what Energy Star approved was too much money!!!

WHAT EVERYONE IS MISSING IS THAT GE SAVED THEM $X PER YEAR IN POWER - BUT WHAT DID IT COST TO INVEST TO GET THAT SAVINGS? IF THE ROI WAS MORE THAN 6 MONTHS THAN IT WAS A FOOLISH INVESTMENT IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

Oh I see , so the DOE is manipulating their numbers too .Interesting . I guess the truth lies somewhere under all of the bull crap. Bottom line is the end users are being lied to . Goes to show you that if you put enough money in the right pocket anything can become the truth

[Erik Sine]

oh, it runs deep. The government doesn't want to look stupid after spending all of our tax dollars on grant/ R&D money to all these companies.

[manuellynch]

oh, it runs deep. The government doesn't want to look stupid after spending all of our tax dollars on grant/ R&D money to all these companies.

Cree is good product - but at ridiculous price - everyone thinks Nichia is expensive, but why are they so damn big and why are they the ones who supply almost all the major applications? Is this because they are expensive...or maybe it is because they are reasonable price, high performance, highest reliability, and most consistent.

Common folks - in the 1960s Japanese quality was considered poor - today we all know that Japanese quality is the icon of the electronics industry...and automotive...sorry, but it is true.

[Jay]

I agree on most of what has been said, However please keep in mind one simple thing. Holiday is a public company and the manner in which they record their investment can be handled in a number of ways . Tax accounting is not math it is accounting which is another language that uses rules that do not appear to the layman as paying out. In reality my guess is that Holiday is going to expense some of this outlay and depreciate most of it . They have millions in investments made each year and they have had their tax department work on this and it will likely offset expenses or capitalized outlays some where else on their balance sheet.

I am not a CPA but know enough to be a pain in the neck. Suggestion when any Sign guy comes up against this type of program the only thing that matters is that if they can match the exact product features on a price and delivery basis. Don't try and do a break even analysis as the methods posted are not correct . Tax accounting is a unique to each company and public companies always repeat always go to the tax guys after they decide they want to buy something big.

Recap if you can deliver 1 gallon of cow milk cheaper then the other guy you may get the bid BUT DO NOT TRY AND CONVERT management to buy Soy milk after they decide they want cow milk.

GE is a horrible outfit but they did not encounter much competition on this job apparently. My guessthat in order to beat them someone like Siemens or Osram needs to be in the fight in order to knock these guys out.

Good Luck

[manuellynch]

I agree on most of what has been said, However please keep in mind one simple thing. Holiday is a public company and the manner in which they record their investment can be handled in a number of ways . Tax accounting is not math it is accounting which is another language that uses rules that do not appear to the layman as paying out. In reality my guess is that Holiday is going to expense some of this outlay and depreciate most of it . They have millions in investments made each year and they have had their tax department work on this and it will likely offset expenses or capitalized outlays some where else on their balance sheet.

I am not a CPA but know enough to be a pain in the neck. Suggestion when any Sign guy comes up against this type of program the only thing that matters is that if they can match the exact product features on a price and delivery basis. Don't try and do a break even analysis as the methods posted are not correct . Tax accounting is a unique to each company and public companies always repeat always go to the tax guys after they decide they want to buy something big.

Recap if you can deliver 1 gallon of cow milk cheaper then the other guy you may get the bid BUT DO NOT TRY AND CONVERT management to buy Soy milk after they decide they want cow milk.

GE is a horrible outfit but they did not encounter much competition on this job apparently. My guessthat in order to beat them someone like Siemens or Osram needs to be in the fight in order to knock these guys out.

Good Luck

Totally agree with you on accounting - I use to be a VP for NASDAQ company and always thought how numbers were twisted was rather unusual.

Also agree with you on Siemens, Osram or Philips point.

Thanks for your comments.

[thomaserb]

Totally agree with you on accounting - I use to be a VP for NASDAQ company and always thought how numbers were twisted was rather unusual.

Also agree with you on Siemens, Osram or Philips point.

Thanks for your comments.

GE seems to be the only company who has come up with have decent packing for LEDs. Placing exposed circuit boards (even sealed with a conformal coating) in outdoor signs is not good design practice. It might save you money, but in the long run the LEDs will fail.

I honestly don't think LEDs save much if any money over other efficient types of lighting, really the advantages are extremely long life and the small package size.

I think most LED lamp fixture manufactures are "Cheating" - they put LED lighting in fixtures with well designed optics and compare to a traditional lamp with no optics and say wow look at the energy savings.

Two large problems facing the LED industry are reliability - some product doesn't even last a year and consistent package design - manufacturers keep changing the package design. HO lamps circa 1960's are still available. LED lamp packages circa august 2009 may not be available in September.

[saneon]

GE seems to be the only company who has come up with have decent packing for LEDs. Placing exposed circuit boards (even sealed with a conformal coating) in outdoor signs is not good design practice. It might save you money, but in the long run the LEDs will fail.

I honestly don't think LEDs save much if any money over other efficient types of lighting, really the advantages are extremely long life and the small package size.

I think most LED lamp fixture manufactures are "Cheating" - they put LED lighting in fixtures with well designed optics and compare to a traditional lamp with no optics and say wow look at the energy savings.

Two large problems facing the LED industry are reliability - some product doesn't even last a year and consistent package design - manufacturers keep changing the package design. HO lamps circa 1960's are still available. LED lamp packages circa august 2009 may not be available in September.

"Cheating" is an understatement. Lying might be a better choice of words. They have created an illusion and have been deemed the "green choice" by political manipulation. Now they can overcharge for an inferior light source all in the name of saving the planet . What a load of crap.

[manuellynch]

GE seems to be the only company who has come up with have decent packing for LEDs. Placing exposed circuit boards (even sealed with a conformal coating) in outdoor signs is not good design practice. It might save you money, but in the long run the LEDs will fail.

I honestly don't think LEDs save much if any money over other efficient types of lighting, really the advantages are extremely long life and the small package size.

I think most LED lamp fixture manufactures are "Cheating" - they put LED lighting in fixtures with well designed optics and compare to a traditional lamp with no optics and say wow look at the energy savings.

Two large problems facing the LED industry are reliability - some product doesn't even last a year and consistent package design - manufacturers keep changing the package design. HO lamps circa 1960's are still available. LED lamp packages circa august 2009 may not be available in September.

Everyone has an opinion. I think a product we are introducing tomorrow just might change your mind - because all the points you suggest are refuted. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[TecnoluxMan]

How did I miss this? Sad, sad, sad. It is all about presentation and packaging, never mind what's actually in the package!

[thomaserb]

How did I miss this? Sad, sad, sad. It is all about presentation and packaging, never mind what's actually in the package!

Actually in this case the package is the product. If the product is not properly packaged it will fail. I'm not just pushing one manufacturer either. I don't know about you - but on more than one occasion I've just about completed a project and realized I needed a few more LED's, only to find that they don't make them anymore :( and the manufacturer won't take them back.

My advise to LED manufacturers, keep your LED packages, wiring and voltages consistent and pay attention to reliability. Exposed printed circuit boards in signs will not work anywhere where it actually rains.

If I can burn my finger on an LED it's not running cool enough, It might work for a year but in 5 years it will fail, and the customer is going to be mad.

[LiteGirl]

Still no reply from the ge posse huh?

[YYZ]

One thing to remember is that they are not going to do a comparison of a new LED system vs a new high efficiency neon system. Your comparing GE to Elite Lamp Tri-phos on high efficiency trannies was never part of the mix. They likely did their math using measured data from older magnetic trannies and whatever neon or fluorescents wee in place.

If that's the case, then it's far more possible that these numbers might be closer to correct.

If someone is replacing their 1992 Buick LeSabre (old neon signs) with a 2008 Honda Civic (GE LEDs) , the correct comparison for calculating savings is between those two, not between the Civic and another 2008 Jetta (Elite Lamp).

...if that makes sense.

[Erik Sine]

This is true from a certain point of view, but! They are talking "Energy Efficiency" and you don't necessarily have to use Elite Lamp, you can use EGL, Voltarc (Cough), Eurocom, Tecnlox glass along with an energy efficient transformer. You can almost double the energy figures if you want to plug in the use of Magnetics for neon and change the figure to 20 years on return of your initial investment.

Also, there are other LED manufacturer's that can be used too, and those figures can significantly change the return on investment too. GE is the most expensive, but a good reliable product.

As a lighting company of gas lamps I just can't believe they crapped all over themselves with the Green Marketing Machine. I still believe a reputable sign company or designer should have gotten involved and written the specs for a hybrid program of both Neon, LED's & Fluorescent and not a one source fits all solution.

There is a bread crumb trail from many online articles & pepers on this GE column with links pointing here (I've been monitoring that traffic). In these economic times there's going and is a lot of pist off people after reading this having to pay for the change over when things could have been sold differently.

This Green Marketing Campaigns have gotten largely out of hand, especially here in California. It all reminds me of the Y2k thing, soon we'll be seeing the 2012 thing where the world is ending. Hey, maybe this is where the short sales come into play, "Pay Less and enjoy yourself Now! Because you won't be around to enjoy it later"

[YYZ]

Oh I agree that GE is very expensive and that more cost effective alternatives could have been included - but there's something to be said for being a multi-billion dollar multi-national corporation. The perception will be that they are very large and can handle any sized project, and the Holiday Inn re-imaging is large by any standard. Companies are doing credit checks not just on their customers, but suppliers too (sign shops, manufacturers) and even though some of those companies have equivalent (or superior) products - it's possible that only GE, Philips and Osram actually passed the criteria required. If that's the case, it's no surprise that GE won.

As to the energy savings - it doesn't matter what else is available today. If they do a comparison between the winning new product (GE) and what existed before (magnetics, etc) then the comparison may well be correct. Unless we know what basis for comparison was used and what criteria was set in place for companies to qualify as suppliers, we can't start introducing other alternatives into the mix and accuse anyone of lying. If Holiday Inn did not consider these other supplies as legitimate alternatives (for reasons listed above), then complaining is kinda pointless.

[Erik Sine]

I agree they are saving their customers on energy costs annually.

It's the upfront costs of the LED's above the sign construction & installation costs that won't make it so and aren't talked about in the article, and it will take at least 40 years before they make it back on energy savings versus their initial investment. Or 20 years or so if they calculated old magnetic transformer costs, but if they did then that is just not honest and the scope wasn't broad enough with other alternatives.

It would be interesting again, to hear something back from anyone from GE or Holiday Inn to get some of actual figures out in the open. Until then I'm just plugging in some basic figures from the comparison's done here. That is all I can go on at this point.

Which leaves me to quote the great Flavor

Don't believe the hype!- Flavor Flav

[thomaserb]

One thing to remember is that they are not going to do a comparison of a new LED system vs a new high efficiency neon system. Your comparing GE to Elite Lamp Tri-phos on high efficiency trannies was never part of the mix. They likely did their math using measured data from older magnetic trannies and whatever neon or fluorescents wee in place.

If that's the case, then it's far more possible that these numbers might be closer to correct.

If someone is replacing their 1992 Buick LeSabre (old neon signs) with a 2008 Honda Civic (GE LEDs) , the correct comparison for calculating savings is between those two, not between the Civic and another 2008 Jetta (Elite Lamp).

...if that makes sense.

Or a 2009 Prius against my 1975 Chrysler station wagon with a 440 engine and a 4 barrel carburetor. You could watch the gas gauge move lower.