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More UL fees???


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The economy sucks as it is. Listing fees are high as it is, and now more programs are being conjured up because they have more time on their hands because the times are slow??? WTF??? Now they want to charge for more programs that are mandatory?

The UL guy I spoke too was right, they have so many higher ups sitting in their office with nothing to do so they start "thinking shit up", thinking of more shit for people to pay.

Am I missing something, or did a bunch or our industry associations just encourage this activity???

Cost-Saving Pilot Program for Sign Manufacturers

Background:

In September 2008, the International Sign Association, United States Sign Council, and the World Sign Associates began a series of meetings with the executive staff of Underwriters Laboratories® to express concerns relating to overall compliance cost and communications. As a result, a Sign Industry Business Panel was created to address improvements in many areas with specific emphasis on improving policy around variation notice (VN) activity.

Results:

UL is implementing a 12-month pilot program for UL category control number (CCN) UXYT of standard UL 48 aimed at reducing the issuance and impact of VNs to the sign industry.

Effective October 1, 2009, the first VN to standard UL 48 a company receives in a 12-month period will be at no cost to the company. Since the majority of customers under CCN UXYT have historically received only one, if any VNs within a given 12-month period, this pilot program should eliminate VN fees for most customers. First VNs will be issued per UL's normal process, followed by a credit memo to balance the VN fee. If a company receives more than one VN between October 1, 2009 and September 30, 2010, the additional VNs will be billed at the standard rate.

As a point of clarification, one inspection equals one VN issued, even if there are multiple issues cited on the VN.

Mandatory web-based training has been created and is now available through UL University

(www.uluniversity.com) for UL 48 (UXYT) customers. This comprehensive training, developed in conjunction with the Sign Industry Business Panel, is focused on the major areas of non-compliance with UL 48. The cost of this training is only $200 USD per company, regardless of how many employees take the on-line course. UL encourages customers to make the training available to multiple employees.

UL orientation for new customers has been implemented. For new customers to standard UL 48, a field staff employee will spend time at the manufacturer's facility outlining safety processes and answering questions before the first audit occurs.

In order to improve consistency of interpretation, UL has provided additional quality training to all of our sign inspectors. This training was created to ensure all sign manufacturers are held to the same standards of safety. In addition, Panel members and UL continue their outreach efforts with Inspectors to assist local authorities in interpreting requirements of the National Electric Code as it relates to signs.

UL is pleased to announce this pilot program in an effort to better support the needs of the industry. We thank our partners on the Sign Industry Business Panel and look forward to continued service to the sign industry.

Best regards,

Alberto Uggetti

VP and General Manager, Global Lighting Industry

UL 48 Training Discount Code

On Monday, you should have received a message from Alberto Uggetti regarding a new VN pilot program for UL 48 (UXYT). In that message, a mandatory web-based training course was described with a cost of $200 USD per company. That cost represents a 50% discount from the regular $400 USD price of that training curriculum.

To register for this course at the discounted price, please visit http://www.uluniversity.com and use promo code SIGN48 in the discount code field during the registration process.

Best regards,

Kevin Daniels

Global Marketing Manager, Lighting

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?

Sad to say but even listing at all, been out of commission for a while, did I miss anything?

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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Where ya been? everything been OK?

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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The implementation of mandatory UL University courses was planned and announced before the Sign Industry Business Panel was formed. In fact it was part of the reason that ISA/USSC/WSA came together to form the group.

UL had announced a series of changes taking effect in 2008, with additional changes announced and scheduled for implementation in 2009 and beyond (record keeping reqs and training among them). While most sign companies were focused at the time on the increase in variation notices being issued and the increase of annual fees, the UL University training was included in materials that UL distributed at that time. (And IIRC, this information was included in an ISA webinar that Lee Hewitt presented in summer 2008).

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The implementation of mandatory UL University courses was planned and announced before the Sign Industry Business Panel was formed. In fact it was part of the reason that ISA/USSC/WSA came together to form the group.

UL had announced a series of changes taking effect in 2008, with additional changes announced and scheduled for implementation in 2009 and beyond (record keeping reqs and training among them). While most sign companies were focused at the time on the increase in variation notices being issued and the increase of annual fees, the UL University training was included in materials that UL distributed at that time. (And IIRC, this information was included in an ISA webinar that Lee Hewitt presented in summer 2008).

That being said... the fact is costs just keep going up and up at UL and I think it is great that there is starting to be some real competition for them!

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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The implementation of mandatory UL University courses was planned and announced before the Sign Industry Business Panel was formed. In fact it was part of the reason that ISA/USSC/WSA came together to form the group.

UL had announced a series of changes taking effect in 2008, with additional changes announced and scheduled for implementation in 2009 and beyond (record keeping reqs and training among them). While most sign companies were focused at the time on the increase in variation notices being issued and the increase of annual fees, the UL University training was included in materials that UL distributed at that time. (And IIRC, this information was included in an ISA webinar that Lee Hewitt presented in summer 2008).

That being said... the fact is costs just keep going up and up at UL and I think it is great that there is starting to be some real competition for them!

I agree. Every shop should not be required to pay more for re-re-education of everything they already know. In all the years I've been with UL I have never, never received a variation notice or ever had to pay a fine. Maybe UL should look into dismissal or look into "re-education" seminars for ONLY those that need it.

We don't need more programs which incur further costs, we just need what is out there on the table now to be enforced.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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It's like the powers that be at UL think everyone HAS to use them and they can do whatever the hell they want! Like I said times they are a changin' and UL's power to strong arm sign shops is going to decrease

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

Buckeye,

The reason I don't belong to ISA is because they seem to want to please the people who get in the way of making signs, instead of helping to get them out of the way!

Don't you think that ISA would better serve its membership by telling UL to lower their prices and cut the BS, or they will sever ties and form a relationship with one of their competitors?!

Seems to me ISA would rather play golf.

Garett Churchill

Elite Lamp Technologies

Sincerely,

Garett Churchill

Fluxeon, Inc.

USA

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Buckeye,

The reason I don't belong to ISA is because they seem to want to please the people who get in the way of making signs, instead of helping to get them out of the way!

Don't you think that ISA would better serve its membership by telling UL to lower their prices and cut the BS, or they will sever ties and form a relationship with one of their competitors?!

Seems to me ISA would rather play golf.

Garett Churchill

Elite Lamp Technologies

While I don't claim to speak for ISA on this matter, I would be very hesitant to endorse (or even participate in) any discussions on a similar subject. The Justice Department has nailed multiple trade associations for engaging in collusive or anticompetitive actions that violate federal antitrust laws. Some of those discussions never even discussed any agreement or shared actions. The simple fact that members sitting around a table started discussing prices meant that the USDOJ was able to bust them. (And the costs of complying with an antitrust consent decree would be HUGE, not just for ISA but millions of dollars spent by most of the major manufacturers within the larger sign industry.) Any well-governed organization (trying to stay in compliance with the law) would tread very lightly on any matters of pricing or threatened collective action.

As to your other points, no matter how we would like the world to be (if we were in charge), we have to deal with municipal inspectors, city planners, building officials, state bureaucrats, self-interested politicians, technical standards writers, and the others that I forgot to mention. Plus the whole administrative apparatus that supports those people. That's just the world we live in. There have been plenty of times when ISA has butted heads with them, and a few occasions when the industry has sued. And even when we won, we still have the problem of needing to work with those same people in the future. Except now they are really disinclined to like us, because we just sued them.

BTW, as someone who grew up in the industry and whose family has been making signs in this country since before the end of World War I, IMHO I believe that ISA (and NESA before it) performs a whole lot of heavy lifting (at great organizational expense) that benefits the industry as a whole (not just the ISA members who bear the whole cost of the efforts but represent in number only a minority of the larger industry). ISA (and its members) have invested millions in efforts to improve the national electric code, change the IBC windload standards, improve USCB economic data, modify the ADA signage regulations, fight California energy conservation regulations, outreach to electrical inspectors, and more. Some of these are Sisyphean tasks, carrying the stone up the hill, only to watch it roll back down time and again. And most of these battles occur far into the shadows and take years to bring to fruition. Even when/if the industry wins, there isn't much/any applause for our efforts. (How exactly does one explain the importance in defeating efforts to keep 70% color contrast of ADA signage as a suggestion and not a mandate? I work at ISA and I barely understand it...)

Having sat through our grinding governance and budget processes, I assure you that the ISA staff and board takes very seriously the responsibility of being viewed by many as THE industry representative by government entities and technical agencies. Even this past year, when the larger economic realities meant that we had to cut our budgets significantly midyear, ISA continued a whole bunch of important research and costly studies for the industry when it would have been a whole lot easier (and cheaper) to not have to reduce staff and compensation levels or ration office supplies or let every computer warranty expire. But we prioritized a whole bunch of things that benefit a far wider circle than our own self-interest.

Believe me, I don't see ISA staff playing a lot of golf.

Kenny Peskin

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  • !llumenati

Kenny,

Thank you for taking the time to compose that reply. I can tell that you care, as do I.

Which is why I hate to see anyone engaged in Sisyphean efforts. Government expansion grows like a Hydra--cut off one head and two grow back in its place. I would prefer that Industry groups like ISA challenge the philosophical and constitutional assumptions that permit the Hydra to grow.

For example, why should it ever have been legal for cities to require UL certification in the first place? But dig deeper. Why do we need sign permits, i.e., permission from the government to build and install a sign? But dig deeper. why do we need a permit office for anything?

The usual objections come creeping in, usually advocated by those who would benefit by restricting competition. Safety, aesthetics, and cries that without government the whole world would look like a boulevard in Hong Kong (well, the old HK anyway).

In reality the safety issues could be addressed between the property owner and insurance company. Maybe the property owner would require a listing of some sort, or maybe the insurance company would refuse coverage or make it prohibitive without such a listing. But nowhere is the ugly head of a bureaucrat handing down heavy-handed and expensive requirements.

It's probably a world view that some have and others abhor, and maybe they can never be reconciled. Some think that free men and women can resolve their differences by appealing to reason and their common interests. Some think that a heavy-handed government is needed to keep men from tearing themselves to pieces.

But I think it's undeniable that without such a goal or philosophical backbone, ISA and other industry groups will continue to expend great efforts to hack off the ever-increasing heads of the Hydra. To me, those who will permit "a little government regulation" are the ones who gave it the sanction to do whatever it wants.

We must, as Hercules did, cauterize the stumps of the severed heads so they cannot grow back!

If anyone is interested, a book called "In Defense of Advertising" by Jerry Kirkpatrick fleshes out the points I have tried to make here.

Kenny, please don't take this as an attack on you. It is increasingly rare in the age of the Internet to have a civil and principled discussion and I do hope we can continue.

Garett Churchill

Elite Lamp Technologies

Sincerely,

Garett Churchill

Fluxeon, Inc.

USA

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It should be illegal for any inspector to impose UL listing or any other certifications. What was intended to improve the safety of products has become a hinderance and a giant bureaucratic monster. The safety of any product depends on its usage. For example a UL listed toaster or a light socket could still kill and burn someone.

The decision to test and list a product should be left to the manufacturers and used as a selling point and not requested by an inspector.

UL knows that it could impose fees because it has a powerful sales force all accross the country that does not cost UL a penny, the inspectors. "Have our product or you cannot do business" should be the UL's sales pitch. In the land of choices how could we allow this?

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I posted a while ago about a conversation with a UL rep about a situation in NJ where a complete hack did a mall. when the town was approached the town only told my friend that he was jealous he did not get a job. Ul rep said that they can not do anything until something happens (a fire) then they can can jump in.

PS - there was LED just as bad as neon and flourescent signs. so no one is favored) I asked then why should my friend pay 3K a year for a listing. the response was to be legal. I hear a catch 22, only when you get caught.

If a UL rep would like, along with anyone else. I can personally take them there as long as the un approved signs are shut off immidately on site and repaired by who ever they want. Work like that is bad for the whole industry and the safety of the public.

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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Like I said before the UL monster thinks since all these places demand signs HAVE to be listed, they can charge whatever they want and we just have to suck it up!

You would be amazed how many city planners and inspectors think UL is a government agency not a for profit business.

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

Like many unions, with the force of law behind them they ARE a de facto government agency!

Garett

Sincerely,

Garett Churchill

Fluxeon, Inc.

USA

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Like many unions, with the force of law behind them they ARE a de facto government agency!

Garett

Very true my friend, very true

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Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?

I thought UL was the only listing company. What other companies are there?? UL has always been too expensive for the small guys to be able to afford. I have never been able to afford it.

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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?

I thought UL was the only listing company. What other companies are there?? UL has always been too expensive for the small guys to be able to afford. I have never been able to afford it.

ETL - Electrical Testing Laboratories has been around even longer than UL. I've seen several signs listed by them. Oldest NRTL in the US I believe.

CSA - similar to UL.

There are others.

BTW, can anyone confirm to me a jurisdiction is actually mandating UL??? There is nothing in the electrical code that specifies UL. "Listed" - yes. Listed means certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). Even recommending a specific laboratory like UL would be illegal I'd think in any possible case. I have NEVER heard of a city actually mandating UL. Listing on the other hand, has been required for decades for everything from electrical sockets to furnaces. That's what a NRTL does. It's supposed to be an unbiased independent testing facility for product safety.

And if UL is now becoming a source of training, that's a sad state of the industry. I don't see how they could remain an independent testing facility if they are now the one's doing the training.

John

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UL has become the biggest (and perhaps baddest) and as long as there isn't a mass migration to another NRTL, it will stay that way simply because most inspectors will run with the herd, so to speak. It's not that they allowed to mandate it, but if it's the best known and easiest mark to get approved by inspectors, sign companies will pay more to keep life easier with their clients.

We just finished getting UL recognition on out LED modules and have also had to deal with a costly field evaluation, primarily because UL is what the inspector was expecting to see and being a UL sign shop, was the only mark they were willing to put on their finished product. It doesn't matter if ETL would be cheaper or faster - there comes a point where you just know it would be more difficult educating customers and inspectors about other NRTLs.

I don't think the savings would be large enough for medium to large companies to bother with the associated headaches, unfortunately. For smaller shops, it definitely makes sense to look elsewhere, as it will be worth the time and money to deal with the inspectors - and if anything is going to change it will happen this way - from the bottom up.

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We recently went to ETL after UL came in and started flagging every element down to the rivits that were not UL listed. Our Muni requires a listing of some sort. I believe and agree there should be a standard in our industry not only for the safety of legitimate sign shops but for the end users. But a label without enforcement is just a sticker.

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We recently went to ETL after UL came in and started flagging every element down to the rivits that were not UL listed. Our Muni requires a listing of some sort. I believe and agree there should be a standard in our industry not only for the safety of legitimate sign shops but for the end users. But a label without enforcement is just a sticker.

How have the fees with ETL compared with UL? Do they operate in a similar way where they come to inspect each quarter... or do you list specific products that don't change?

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After several years I have dropped my UL service. This year alone i have in excess of $4,000.00 in fees. I have had to purchase my own "Certified Calibrated" measuring tools so my inspector could measure the thickness of the aluminum sheeting that I used. The minimum I use is .040 and UL 48 requires a minimum of .020. If the inspector can't visually inspect & tell the difference between these measurements he should have to supply his own tools to tell the difference. I know it is whining over something that trivial but it still bothers me. The towns in my area don't require UL listing so it doesn't give me any advantages to "List" my product. It increases my cost but not my competitions costs. My product meets and exceeds UL 48 guidelines and always will. Now I don't have UL fees to increase my costs.

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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?

I thought UL was the only listing company. What other companies are there?? UL has always been too expensive for the small guys to be able to afford. I have never been able to afford it.

ETL - Electrical Testing Laboratories has been around even longer than UL. I've seen several signs listed by them. Oldest NRTL in the US I believe.

CSA - similar to UL.

There are others.

BTW, can anyone confirm to me a jurisdiction is actually mandating UL??? There is nothing in the electrical code that specifies UL. "Listed" - yes. Listed means certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). Even recommending a specific laboratory like UL would be illegal I'd think in any possible case. I have NEVER heard of a city actually mandating UL. Listing on the other hand, has been required for decades for everything from electrical sockets to furnaces. That's what a NRTL does. It's supposed to be an unbiased independent testing facility for product safety.

And if UL is now becoming a source of training, that's a sad state of the industry. I don't see how they could remain an independent testing facility if they are now the one's doing the training.

John

I have had only one City that mandated UL. It is stated in their App that it has to be a UL listed sign. It was one I was working in last year. I can't remember which City it was, but they definitely said they would not accept anything but UL. I had to have my sign manufactured by someone that had a UL listing. I will have to go back through my jobs files for last year, because I remember making notes about it in the file, but it won't come to me off the top of my head this morning. When they said that I thought to myself that they were the only ones that had ever said that, and wondered why. I had never had that problem until that one job. If all of us stand together and use someone else, UL may get the hint and drop their pricing so even a small shop like mine could afford it .....??

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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?

I thought UL was the only listing company. What other companies are there?? UL has always been too expensive for the small guys to be able to afford. I have never been able to afford it.

ETL - Electrical Testing Laboratories has been around even longer than UL. I've seen several signs listed by them. Oldest NRTL in the US I believe.

CSA - similar to UL.

There are others.

BTW, can anyone confirm to me a jurisdiction is actually mandating UL??? There is nothing in the electrical code that specifies UL. "Listed" - yes. Listed means certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). Even recommending a specific laboratory like UL would be illegal I'd think in any possible case. I have NEVER heard of a city actually mandating UL. Listing on the other hand, has been required for decades for everything from electrical sockets to furnaces. That's what a NRTL does. It's supposed to be an unbiased independent testing facility for product safety.

And if UL is now becoming a source of training, that's a sad state of the industry. I don't see how they could remain an independent testing facility if they are now the one's doing the training.

John

I have had only one City that mandated UL. It is stated in their App that it has to be a UL listed sign. It was one I was working in last year. I can't remember which City it was, but they definitely said they would not accept anything but UL. I had to have my sign manufactured by someone that had a UL listing. I will have to go back through my jobs files for last year, because I remember making notes about it in the file, but it won't come to me off the top of my head this morning. When they said that I thought to myself that they were the only ones that had ever said that, and wondered why. I had never had that problem until that one job. If all of us stand together and use someone else, UL may get the hint and drop their pricing so even a small shop like mine could afford it .....??

almost surely a misprint on their part. To many people "UL" is a generic term that means "listed" - almost like "Coke". The National Electric Code adopted by each jurisdiction never, ever, ever mandates one brand of product or service over another. Doing such would be VERY illegal anywhere in the US.

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