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luckybilbo

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It is everyone responsibility to report these hacks and the crap work they do. If the fire marshal wont do anything than than go to the mayor and the news if need be. Maybe a stop at the customer getting the work(?) They had to call someone out, they were cheap and made the sign light again. The restaurant owner knows as much about signs as I do about making holandaze(sp) sauce.

I think this site should post pics of hack work along with the offenders names. Pier pressure can only help.

Hell I think those assholes would not care if their name was posted on here they don't can't read

If they even have a name! I keep loosing work to a company called "oh some guy I know who does sheet metal work", and apparently paint, vinyl, and neon!

You dont even want that type of work. They would nickel and dime you, after using your drawing to send to 9 other companies.

CALL THE CITY !!!!!!!! CALL OSHA!!!!!! CALL THE HALL IF UNION !!!! WE Cant not let these assholes take over a large segment of the work. Then fuck it up for everyone that is trying to do it right. St. Louis County said they will vigorously check any sign that is believed to bet non UL non permitted. The will take calls and you dont even have to give your name.

I have had no luck calling the inspection dept here. I gave up on it. They wouldnt do anything, but as usual, torture the honest people.

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Its a retro-fit. Nice job. I never seen this madness before. Nice colors. Red letters on blue background. I guess Indiana has no code.

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My take on the neon is that, yes, it's a piss poor installation, breaking about every rule in the book, but it doesn't appear that there are combustible materials in proximity to the electrodes, so there is no danger of fire. Essentially, if it were to short, it would go to ground (nearby metal), heat up and trip the transformer, and even if the xfr. isn't 2161 compliant, the breaker will trip.

What surprises me is how no one has mentions how BAD the red copy reads on the blue backgrounds. Talk about something done poorly...

Skip

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What surprises me is how no one has mentions how BAD the red copy reads on the blue backgrounds. Talk about something done poorly...

Whoops, at least until Mike stuck his comment in ahead of mine. :blush:

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My take on the neon is that, yes, it's a piss poor installation, breaking about every rule in the book, but it doesn't appear that there are combustible materials in proximity to the electrodes, so there is no danger of fire. Essentially, if it were to short, it would go to ground (nearby metal), heat up and trip the transformer, and even if the xfr. isn't 2161 compliant, the breaker will trip.

What surprises me is how no one has mentions how BAD the red copy reads on the blue backgrounds. Talk about something done poorly...

Skip

?? Sorry - just because the tranny goes to ground, especially one that is not 2161 won't cause the breaker to trip. Now the ones are supposed to --- but even they aren't an absolute.

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It is people like these that give our whole industry a BAD RAP, Especially Neon!!

At night you can see that they did not use 2161 transformers....Not is there going to be a Fire, But when will it Happen???

They should be found and run outta town..Tared & Feathered.

:aufsmaul_2:

I know we have ran this into the ground but,.... are those tube supports on the front of the sign, actually holding the face in? Because i don't see a retainer on the lower flange of that face. Some one needs to report this before we have another Taco Hell situation.

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?? Sorry - just because the tranny goes to ground, especially one that is not 2161 won't cause the breaker to trip. Now the ones are supposed to --- but even they aren't an absolute.

I guess we can both disagree, Gary, but my experience is that the circuit will heat up, the contact detects such and trips off. I'm not justifying the cause by any means, but there are layers of safety built into the NEC long before UL's layer.

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Looking at the pictures these guys prolly taped the test button in anyway. Besides NEC says install in a workman like manner. This does not meet that criteria.

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?? Sorry - just because the tranny goes to ground, especially one that is not 2161 won't cause the breaker to trip. Now the ones are supposed to --- but even they aren't an absolute.

I guess we can both disagree, Gary, but my experience is that the circuit will heat up, the contact detects such and trips off. I'm not justifying the cause by any means, but there are layers of safety built into the NEC long before UL's layer.

Sorry - Gary's correct: a neon transformer (2161 or otherwise) arcing to ground won't cause a supply breaker to trip. The transformer won't pull enough current to do that. Remember: transformers are tested for 'short circuit' current (30 or 60 ma) by shorting the secondary windings with a milliamp meter.

Now a 2161 trannie is supposed to internally trip anytime the current from one output hub doesn't return to the other by taking a shortcut to ground. That's your only protection against crap installs.


"Freedom has ceased to be a birthright; it has come to mean whatever we are still permitted to do" - Joe Sobran

I was tired yesterday, I'm tired today, and I'll be retired tomorrow - TD

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?? Sorry - just because the tranny goes to ground, especially one that is not 2161 won't cause the breaker to trip. Now the ones are supposed to --- but even they aren't an absolute.

I guess we can both disagree, Gary, but my experience is that the circuit will heat up, the contact detects such and trips off. I'm not justifying the cause by any means, but there are layers of safety built into the NEC long before UL's layer.

Sorry - Gary's correct: a neon transformer (2161 or otherwise) arcing to ground won't cause a supply breaker to trip. The transformer won't pull enough current to do that. Remember: transformers are tested for 'short circuit' current (30 or 60 ma) by shorting the secondary windings with a milliamp meter.

Now a 2161 trannie is supposed to internally trip anytime the current from one output hub doesn't return to the other by taking a shortcut to ground. That's your only protection against crap installs.

Crap installs like this are the reason we have 2161 trans now. When I started I used to replace transformers that were 20+ years old. 10 years later 10 years old and I think just before 2161 they would only last 5 years. Now transformers are the weak link in a neon sign. with 5 or more percent failure out of the box and maybe 25% before they are out of warranty. The industry did this to itself by not self policing douche bags like those that worked on this job.

Edited by UFB Fabrication

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I've done a lot of repairs in my time and replaced signs signs caused by fires. One thing they all have in common is the fact that I've never seen a circuit breaker trip caused by issues of the tranny secondary, but on;y issues with the primary.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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It is people like these that give our whole industry a BAD RAP, Especially Neon!!

At night you can see that they did not use 2161 transformers....Not is there going to be a Fire, But when will it Happen???

They should be found and run outta town..Tared & Feathered.

:aufsmaul_2:

Its obvious that this restaurant is not a viable business. Dont waste your time worrying about non-viable businesses. We have people in this area doing signs for beans. This country is being populated by third world immigrants that will never even try to come up to our standards.

It is in fact a viable business, it has been in business over 9 years and is a high volume establishment. Why would anyone not be concerned about the safty of human life , even if it was a hole in the wall dive, people could still be burned or lose their life if a fire broke out. :scratchhead:

This was not third world immigrants that installed this neon, it was a couple of slap happy idiots with a pick-up and a ladder that call themselves a sign company. :sml (26):

why would a viable business pay these people ? just because they have been there 9 years and have a high volume doesnt make it viable. to me, the fact that they paid them is revealing. they cant afford real sign work. i know many a non-viable business that have been at it a long time. i wont even talk to them. this bs is going to continue forever. if they dont get a permit, they dont need an inspection, and the city wont go after them because they dont work that way.

I agree, why would they pay?? I would'nt..... My concern is loss of property and life....Shame on the city for allowing this to happen and Shame on the Local Fire Marshall for not noticing this for the length of time it has been up/down...!

I agree, the truth is theyre too busy torturing the honest and ethical people to bother with the hacks.

somebody needs to drag the inspectors boss out there. this dump should be shut down.

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Crap installs like this are the reason we have 2161 trans(formers) now.

Absolutely correct. Want more of the same?

When I started I used to replace transformers that were 20+ years old. 10 years later 10 years old and I think just before 2161 they would only last 5 years. Now transformers are the weak link in a neon sign. with 5 or more percent failure out of the box and maybe 25% before they are out of warranty. The industry did this to itself by not self policing douche bags like those that worked on this job.

That was supposed to be the inspector's job. Oh, I forgot - nobody pulled a permit for this job, as it was a 'repair'...

Maybe time to start a 'transformer reliability' poll?


"Freedom has ceased to be a birthright; it has come to mean whatever we are still permitted to do" - Joe Sobran

I was tired yesterday, I'm tired today, and I'll be retired tomorrow - TD

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Crap installs like this are the reason we have 2161 trans(formers) now.

Absolutely correct. Want more of the same?

When I started I used to replace transformers that were 20+ years old. 10 years later 10 years old and I think just before 2161 they would only last 5 years. Now transformers are the weak link in a neon sign. with 5 or more percent failure out of the box and maybe 25% before they are out of warranty. The industry did this to itself by not self policing douche bags like those that worked on this job.

That was supposed to be the inspector's job. Oh, I forgot - nobody pulled a permit for this job, as it was a 'repair'...

Maybe time to start a 'transformer reliability' poll?

Kind of a oxymoron dontcha think.

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Not a problem disagreeing ---------- just that with the pre-2161 trannies, you could short that little puppy all day long and not kick the circuit breaker.

Haven't done it for awhile --- but you used to be able to take 2161 trannies, underload the tranny, short the thing to ground having a nice arc ---- and STILL not even kick off the GFI in the tranny. The "logic" of the tranny mfg's was that there wasn't enough of a "correct" load on the tranny to enable the pretty little arc to kick off the GFI. Is that fixed now? Haven't a clue, but over the years, Telford, myself, and good old Dirk---poor guy--did tons of testing of crap that was coming out, and b.s. that was circulating. Now, Dirk's out of the picture, and Telford, our local electrical whiz-----------just keeps purring along with his incredible knowledge! To bad Telford doesn't have some of his tremendous electrical articles from the old INA days. Tremendous reading for us dumb people to understand the workings of electricity in simple English. Heck, he can even make oscilloscope readings make sense---

gn

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Kind of a oxymoron dontcha think.

Maybe.

Point is, installs like the one shown should never be done - but they are. Then these are supposed to be caught by the AHJ and red-tagged - but he's not looking because he wasn't called. So you have two sequential layers of failure.

Let's face it: if all installers were perfectly competent, then there would be no need for 2161 or inspectors, for that matter. And the code and UL specs would represent little more than an informal agreement between installers on how they agree to do things...

But that's obviously not the case.

Am open for suggestions on what else could be done to prevent this kind of thing, as otherwise the mindless government bureaucracy will eventually 'fix' it for us, their (lowest common denominator) way, by making neon completely safe by making it completely illegal...

As for the transformers, manufacturers will sell what the public will buy. On the other hand, bad reputation can do wonders towards eliminating bogus products. Hence the tranny reliability poll...

I haven't personally seen that much of a degradation of trannie quality, but maybe I'm just lucky. (Or maybe we just have milder weather out here...)

Although I do miss the 12Kv / 120 ma cold cathode stuff...

Edited by TelfordDorr

"Freedom has ceased to be a birthright; it has come to mean whatever we are still permitted to do" - Joe Sobran

I was tired yesterday, I'm tired today, and I'll be retired tomorrow - TD

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Kind of a oxymoron dontcha think.

Am open for suggestions on what else could be done to prevent this kind of thing, as otherwise the mindless government bureaucracy will eventually 'fix' it for us, their (lowest common denominator) way, by making neon completely safe by making it completely illegal...

My favorite story in this regard is when I had Los Angeles inspector just nit picking a good installation of ours. It was a long time ago, so I don't remember the specifics, but his complaints were baseless. Anyhow, I pointed to an installation across the street that looked similar to those examples shown under this thread (GTO draped across the fascia, no electrode cups, etc.) and asked him why he didn't do anything about those obvious and unsafe transgressions. He simply shrugged his shoulders and said, "There's nothing I can do about that". Astonished, I asked why and he said, "Because that sign doesn't have a permit". !!!!

When this is the governmental attitude, there is little left to wonder about.

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Only thing I have close to a "reliability" poll is this

http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=193

odd though, no one voted for Actown, lol


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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:wootsmiley: :wootsmiley: :wootsmiley:

index_3.jpg


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Kind of a oxymoron dontcha think.

Am open for suggestions on what else could be done to prevent this kind of thing, as otherwise the mindless government bureaucracy will eventually 'fix' it for us, their (lowest common denominator) way, by making neon completely safe by making it completely illegal...

My favorite story in this regard is when I had Los Angeles inspector just nit picking a good installation of ours. It was a long time ago, so I don't remember the specifics, but his complaints were baseless. Anyhow, I pointed to an installation across the street that looked similar to those examples shown under this thread (GTO draped across the fascia, no electrode cups, etc.) and asked him why he didn't do anything about those obvious and unsafe transgressions. He simply shrugged his shoulders and said, "There's nothing I can do about that". Astonished, I asked why and he said, "Because that sign doesn't have a permit". !!!!

When this is the governmental attitude, there is little left to wonder about.

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Kind of a oxymoron dontcha think.

Am open for suggestions on what else could be done to prevent this kind of thing, as otherwise the mindless government bureaucracy will eventually 'fix' it for us, their (lowest common denominator) way, by making neon completely safe by making it completely illegal...

My favorite story in this regard is when I had Los Angeles inspector just nit picking a good installation of ours. It was a long time ago, so I don't remember the specifics, but his complaints were baseless. Anyhow, I pointed to an installation across the street that looked similar to those examples shown under this thread (GTO draped across the fascia, no electrode cups, etc.) and asked him why he didn't do anything about those obvious and unsafe transgressions. He simply shrugged his shoulders and said, "There's nothing I can do about that". Astonished, I asked why and he said, "Because that sign doesn't have a permit". !!!!

When this is the governmental attitude, there is little left to wonder about.

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Happy to see that this post of mine is making a second round....it is time to get rid of all the Riffraff wanna be installers and leave this to us professionals...even thou I'm now Retired....!!!! I have seen so many crap installs like this in my 25 years in the business that it makes me sick. :filleloupgarou: Keep it all going guys...Rock On :syndicate:

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