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Looking for automatic ribbon burner


Brian

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Hey guys let me know if you have one you are interested in selling

Thanks!

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Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

Hey guys let me know if you have one you are interested in selling

Thanks!

Daco makes one ----- check with them for price. Or, like we discussed ------- you can easily make one yourself. Everything is readiy available from the squirrel cage, to the relays. Daco will sell you the igniter.

What happened to the little all in one system that I sold you that was giving you all kinds of heat?

gn

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  • !llumenati

just need a squirrel cage blower, gas solinoid and a igniter from a BBQ. Just make sure the blower is large enough or you can put it inline with the air you have now.

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GOOD things happen for a reason......

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Hey guys let me know if you have one you are interested in selling

Thanks!

Daco makes one ----- check with them for price. Or, like we discussed ------- you can easily make one yourself. Everything is readiy available from the squirrel cage, to the relays. Daco will sell you the igniter.

What happened to the little all in one system that I sold you that was giving you all kinds of heat?

gn

Yea the little dude works great... but I would like to have an auto to cut down on the heat in the shop

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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just need a squirrel cage blower, gas solinoid and a igniter from a BBQ. Just make sure the blower is large enough or you can put it inline with the air you have now.

Ok anyone have some plans drawn up?

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

Well, just throwing out ideas here --------- you already have the blower - and it's probably just doing the ribbon burner? Or is it set up to do the cannons also? If not --- just put a actuator valve inline on the gas --- let the air run. Cut into the ac line and put a foot pedal to active the relay valve, and you're done. Oh yeah ------- good idea using a barbecue starter.

gn

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Well, just throwing out ideas here --------- you already have the blower - and it's probably just doing the ribbon burner? Or is it set up to do the cannons also? If not --- just put a actuator valve inline on the gas --- let the air run. Cut into the ac line and put a foot pedal to active the relay valve, and you're done. Oh yeah ------- good idea using a barbecue starter.

gn

Yea I have it set up just to run the ribbon burner. I would like it set up to auto ignite when you step on the pedal

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

So -------- you could just install a gas valve, and a relay for it on the gas side. If you wanted to do the same for the air, that would also be easy. Tie in a foot pedal to activate the relays - with the gas having a relay that has a timer that you can set to allow for a couple seconds of air flow before the gas kicks on. And I'm speaking of literally just a couple seconds ----------

I could probably find a picture of my old one if that would help ----- but its not using your type of setup. I actually had my old one set up using my roots blower ------- so my air could, but didn't have to ever turn off since that air handled the entire shop and you couldn't tell if any ribbon burner was on or off since it never affected the air flow. I had the relays and the foot pedal to activvate and the igniter to lite, and then igniter would turn off --- I had the igniter on a one side transfomer used for gas furnaces. So ---------- to keep from getting shocked when sweating, the igniter had to light - and then turn off automatically.

gn

gn

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So -------- you could just install a gas valve, and a relay for it on the gas side. If you wanted to do the same for the air, that would also be easy. Tie in a foot pedal to activate the relays - with the gas having a relay that has a timer that you can set to allow for a couple seconds of air flow before the gas kicks on. And I'm speaking of literally just a couple seconds ----------

I could probably find a picture of my old one if that would help ----- but its not using your type of setup. I actually had my old one set up using my roots blower ------- so my air could, but didn't have to ever turn off since that air handled the entire shop and you couldn't tell if any ribbon burner was on or off since it never affected the air flow. I had the relays and the foot pedal to activvate and the igniter to lite, and then igniter would turn off --- I had the igniter on a one side transfomer used for gas furnaces. So ---------- to keep from getting shocked when sweating, the igniter had to light - and then turn off automatically.

gn

gn

Yep thats what I'm talking about but I didn't know how to rig up the igniter. I don't mind if the blower runs all of the time

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • !llumenati

Take the ignitor off the side burner on your grill or get one at Lowes. You may have to extend the end to go up around the front of the ribbon. Use the push button that comes with it. You can clamp it (suspend it) underneath the burner in the front. That part doesnt get to hot.

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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  • !llumenati

Take the ignitor off the side burner on your grill or get one at Lowes. You may have to extend the end to go up around the front of the ribbon. Use the push button that comes with it. You can clamp it (suspend it) underneath the burner in the front. That part doesnt get to hot.

Doing it this way the igniter won't be automatic - but easy to use. And you don't have to worry bout setting it up. Otherwise ------- on mine, it was all controlled by relays - and trust me, if I can figure out how to wire in a relay, etc - you sure as heck can. The gas has a delay, the air turns on automatically - or omit and leave this on, and the igniter has a delay that works in reverse --- meaning htat it fires up, gas kicks on and lights, and after a couple secs the igniter turns itself off.

gn

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Take the ignitor off the side burner on your grill or get one at Lowes. You may have to extend the end to go up around the front of the ribbon. Use the push button that comes with it. You can clamp it (suspend it) underneath the burner in the front. That part doesnt get to hot.

OK but can you rig it so that the same pedal that lets the gas through also ignites it? That way if the gas gets turned on it will ignite not just spew out raw gas, and also free up your hands

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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I am also wanting to beef my ribbon burner up. I remember seeing plans (maybe in Signs of the Times several years ago).I'm not sure. If anyone has the exact components needed without just guessing, I sure would appreciate their time and courtesy to pass this information on. Thank you.

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  • !llumenati

To answer Brians question - yes. To answer the next question about whether I have the plans - sorry, no longer. However, it's actually quite easy.

In terms of the relays - grainger has them. It's a case of deciding what you want to happen. I had one foot pedal that operated everything. Relays can be bought in numerous configurations - to turn on, turn off, have a timer to turn off, timer to turn on, and timers that have delays.

So - what I wanted originally ----- I wanted to step on my foot pedal, and ---- my air came on instantly, a fraction of a second later the gas and the igniter would kick on. This would allow for the air to remove whatever gas MIGHT be left in the burner to avoid explosions, etc. So, now the gas and igniter kick on and light the burner, and the igniter was on a timer of seconds, so that after about 4 seconds it kicked off. When I stepped on the foot pedal the next time ----------- voila, evereything went off --------- until the next heat.

The big thing is the blower. For those that like squirrel cage blowers - again, at Grainger, you can buy a small squirrel cage which comes with a square plate where the air comes out of a hole. You can get a round piece of steel that matches the one your ribbon is on now, and weld it to the square plate. This then becomes the new mount for the ribbon head. Or -------- if you were like me and had a great roots blower ------ still use that for the air of the ribbon, and don't bother putting a relay on the air. No harm in having the blower put out air, as mine made no noise, etc. Or, again, having a roots blower, its easy to still use a relay on that air ------ WITHOUT affecting other fires in ths shop because of the volume and pressure of a roots blower. Now, in Brians case - he has a nifty little all in one thing that I bought years ago. It would be relatively easy to just put in relays on that little bugger. Tap into the electrical, wire in your switch, put another 4 x 4 box for the relays to mount on, and wire them up - and you've got it.

gn

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  • !llumenati

Vital Signs in ARizona? If you've been around the neon scene long - then you know me.

You say you want to "beef up" your ribbon burner? Most of the time when that comes in a sentence its because the shop is set up with a regenerative blower - that is trying to operate all the fires, and because of the extremely low pressure on those things, its the volume that kills the tube bender. Any adjustment to ANY fire then affects the adjustment of any other fire. Even the opening and closing of the slide affects the heat of the ribbon. I am a firm believer of a roots blower -- they have different sizes. Mine was a 3L - oversize for most shops, but it handled 5 differnt stations, complete with all the fires - and you literally couldn't tell if any were turned on, off, or adjusted because of the roots blower. It was set for 2.5 psi ----- it had a pop off valve set up on it----andit just chugged away. Because of the pressure constant, there was never any issue of volume of air, nor any change in the pressure of the air to the fires. If you, or anyone else, ever set up a roots blower, you'd kick yourself in the ass for ever messing with a regen blower. The downside - a roots blower, because of the pop off valve --- makes noise. I had mine outside the wall in an enclosure. Worked great. But --- after many years I could still hear the bubbling from the pop off valve - so I moved it ------ about 50' away, ran the air line under ground to my shop - couldn't hear the machine anymore, and absolutely no difference in the air pressure/volume. Try doing that with a regen.

The other thing with getting a ribbon hotter - is the actualy adjustment of the air and gas. As Brian can attest to -------- the HEAT makes all the difference in the world in bending glass. Not enough --- and you cannot do decent glass - on either the ribbon or the cannonfires. If you're using a regen ----- and you've got the regen all the way open - and you can't get enough heat out of the fires ------- you'll never get enough heat. If you get the ribbon set, and its on ---------- and you can't leave it on and turn back to your cannon fires and still have the correct heat on that flame ------ get a different blower system. Othwerise your neon work is just a hobby becuse you're having to spend way to much time adjusting fires properly.

That's it.

gn

Edited by Gary Nutting
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Gary that is exactly how I want mine set up!!! Damn someone on here must have some plans and part numbers

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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  • 1 month later...

I don't have any relays at all on mine . Afer years of turning everything on by hand and being damned tired of the cumbersomeness of it I came up with my own "Rube Goldberg edition" ribbon burner . Some of you may laugh at it once I post some pics but it cost me about $20 to put it together and some tinkering . I had an old 3500 volt transformer laying around which I mounted to the base of the burner's stand which rolls by the way since my bending area is small . I bought a bracket and made a pedal out of a 2 by 4 and also mounted that to the base under the economizer handle in just the right place. I had a piece of aluminum angle and eyeballed it into the right place too under the pedal on the side I stand on and mounted a momentary switch there so the pedal could hit it when depressed and I screwed in a self tapping screw as as stop to lessen the wear on the switch . I then bought a small pulley to shut the gas off when pressing the other end of the pedal and attached an old shoe string to it . The "on" end of the pedal was attached to the gas shutoff valve with some stripped 14 gauge house wire I had and in the middle of that I attached a spring so the pedal would travel farther than the gas valve and retract when released . Also the momentary switch is spring loaded too so you not gonna get shocked . I then siliconed an aluminum ring I cut out around the base of the burner head as a type of clock style contact - you know , like t hey'd use in a neon clock to make contact with a revolving assembly and used a floating contact out of an old air mattress blower to make contact with the ring . You could use something besides this like maybe even a spring loaded tube support with one of the transformer leads attached to it somehow. I then ran a glass tube through the middle of the ribbon head and bent some more house wire up and ran it through around to the far end of the burner for ignition . All you have to do then is wire up the primary of the transformer through you momentary switch and it 's ready to roll . I did install a stop on the economizer to keep it set in the mid range because I also installed another foot pedal to kick the burner into high mode (all out ) . I'll have to post some pics if you'd like but I've been using it like this for years and it works great . I just have to screw around with the pedal once in a while and really just need to get a better foot pedal . But it is basically hands free - no fumbling with turning on the gas adjusting the economizer or burning myself with a lighter . james

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I bought one and it's on it's way...but NOLAneon I have got to see pics of yours!!!

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Hmmmm, like to see some pics of this also. But only out of curiousity.

gn

This is the on/off pedal . The copper wire going up turns on the gas and has a spring midway up which isn't shown. The string turns it off .

ribbonburnerpics001.jpg

This shows the pulley which reroutes the shoestring to shut off the gas ( I guess this is pretty obvious but I want it to be clear!)

ribbonburnerpics002.jpg

This the aluminum ring siliconed in place with the wire attached by a screw which then ties into the ingnition wire . Underneath is the spring loaded electric brush which makes the contact for the secondary . The other trans. lead is bolted to the rim.

ribbonburnerpics003.jpg

Ignition wire

ribbonburnerpics005.jpg

A lexan scrap used as a stop for the economizer handle I installed to keep it in the mid postition for small curves and a spring to keep it under tension for my foot pedal which kicks it into high for long curves. I'm planning on fabbing up a piece of angle iron and welding or bolting it into place with a thumb screw or the like to set the handle in place in the future . So far the lexan has worked fine though.

ribbonburnerpics006.jpg

The throttle ! :)

ribbonburnerpics007.jpg

I realize that maybe some will think it's a pile of junk but it's served me well for over 2 years now . The shoe string hasn't even given out ! As I said , I know it needs some improvement and this was a prototype of sorts but it's done alright . I hope it can save some of you some money . I had fun putting it together ! I'd say I probably put in 4 hours on it all told once I had all of my parts . How much do one of the fancy factory jobs cost anyway ? I know someone whose solenoid quit on them not that long ago . I don't have a solenoid or any other relays to fail . You wouldn't need to put the stop or the gas pedal in I suppose but mine is hands free. I'll continue to tinker with it and hope to get it closer to the floor once I have more room . For now I need it to roll . I could get rid of the tire rim for some metal plate I suppose but I don't feel like it right now !

Edited by NOLANeon
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  • !llumenati

Damn, I had thought your "description" was totally tongue in cheek!! Apparently not !!

I understood most of the descriptions except the one of a lexan handle on the slide, and why would you want to turn the econimizer on half way for small arcs???

I would venture a guess that not many others would be capable of building that !!

gn

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Damn, I had thought your "description" was totally tongue in cheek!! Apparently not !!

I understood most of the descriptions except the one of a lexan handle on the slide, and why would you want to turn the econimizer on half way for small arcs???

I would venture a guess that not many others would be capable of building that !!

gn

Thanks Gary , but if I built it I think just about anyone could . As I see it , it told me how to build itself - all I had to do was look at it and envision a little bit . I knew what I wanted to do and how the burner worked . From there I just had to make a parts list and fab up a few pieces and tinker around with it . In my experience with ribbon burners , the economizer handle has to be in the midway position for the burner to work . Am I right on this ? When the handle is in the up position you just get a fluttery useless flame . Yet when it's all the way down you get full throttle . I didn't want to have to use one of my hands to constantly adjust the economizer so the lexan strip is there to stop it against the force of the door stop spring you see in that picture. The spring is there for the throttle pedal to go wide open and then bounce back to mid position . Yes I know I'm lazy ! They say necessity is the mother of invention , right ? Well , necessity must have a father as well and his name is aggravation ! Many of us glassbenders are known for our occasional bouts of moodiness and irritation or maybe this is just me :laughing1: I'd say this figures in partially in my creation of this contraption and I'd never be without one again . The really good thing about it is that , the way I've got it set , I don't have to come back and adjust the air and gas to get a small heat or a full length heat . All I've got to do is hit the throttle and pull out the slide. The tire rim is ugly but the good thing is that it's made out of mild steel and is easy to drill into . The guys I was working for didn't have one and thought I was nuts :pillepalle: but had never seen mine in action . So I just put an igniter part on theirs with the on off foot pedal mounted to the table under the burner (table mounted ribbon burner). The igniter was a coroplast hand paddle over the switch also on the table mounted right under the table top . It didn't have a throttle so I had to always adjust the air and gas back and forth according to the types of curves I was doing . When I was finishing mine up I had a little taste of serendipity - when I mounted the throttle pedal it just so happened to be right where the valve stem came through the rim originally :wootsmiley: I was amazed when the copper wire fished perfectly through it and lined up with the economizer handle At that point I felt I'd really kind of pulled off something unique :beach: but maybe some dead glassbender of yore has already invented one of these ! We'll probably never know that one . If you have anymore questions or want some more pics let me know but as I said , all you've gotta do is look at it and think and envision and anyone could build one . :neon:

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  • !llumenati

Nah ---- you were/are probably the only tube bender that is moody !!

I'm sure alot of aggravation also stems from the other equipment - i.e. the blower. I was luck in that I ONLY had a roots blower all those years - and as such, I didn't have to fiddle ass around adjusting gas/air on any fires - so my economizer was either up or down. Course my ribbon was only used for 2" or longer heats - my cannon sufficed for all others. After I built my auto ribbon burner - I swore that I'd also never be without one. Amazing how much cooler my shop in Arizona was without the ribbon cranking while I turned to go back to the bench.

Thanks again for the pictures -----------

gn

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