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Do you sell illegal signs ?


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The other day on the way home I was thinking of a sign that I had priced for the 3rd time on the same project. My customer was trying to get it to comply with the cities regs.

At the same time I was thinking this I was looking at all the snipe signs and banners and signs that I am sure were not compliant with what the city requires.

I am thinking that the reason the city has such strict guidelines is because when you drive down the street it looks like all you can see are signs. I have met the enemy and he is us.

I am sure nobody is going to admit to it but this crap does not put itself up.

Edited by UFB Fabrication
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I only design, but I know a few shops who bootleg, it takes too long for architectural review so the client will want to go for it, and we have quite a bit of it here in my town... sign shops can be the problem.

My other problem is over-compliance or complacency.

Some ADA code language here is pretty clear, but someone will require the signs have braille and tactile even though the code states certain buildings built before some date, do not have to comply, they say do it anyways. I ask the state they don't know so just do it, ballooning the cost of the sign estimate, my client loses the bid because another sign shop comes in and does not put braille and tactile.

Fire departments that are lax about fire evacs.. one time a fire department said to put fire evacs up, "if my client wanted too" Well I gave the client the option and a $50,000.00+ estimate on the fire signs, they said go for it, but the fire department would not follow the law and review and approve them according too code, no one would take liability, so the signs were never done.

Another is I did the fire evacs and they allowed the client to delete the ADA portions of the signs. As licensed contractors, my client will most likely take the hit if some over zealous ADA geek goes in and demands they be added, even with letters of liability release.

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Yes, we can be our own worst enemy.

I would say majority of the illegal signs are put up by illegal contracts. Most of the legit companies who pay for their licenses, insurance, UL fee's are more than likely not going to put up illegal signs, whether they are not up to code by the NEC or building. Why would one risk everything they have built. Most of the non-compliant stuff I see is from vinyl shops deciding they want to break into the electrical sign industry and they hire part time workers who work for other electrical sign shops who in turn don't know what they are doing.

IMO a lot of this can get cleaned up locally, on the broader view a lot of this falls on marketing of our so called trade magazines & vinyl shop franchise's like Sign A Rama & others, who have no business trying to illegally execute contracts or sub out work they have no licenses for. All their websites state that they do electrical sign work, even though they do not carry an electrical sign contractors license or a general. Now they have broken into selling TV's, ERRRRRRR.........Digital Signage, I wonder if they install that too?

This is comical the way it's handled at Sign & Digital Graphics, and just months apart (Post #1)

http://www.thesignsy...indpost&p=18758

next month or so (post #51)

http://www.thesignsy...indpost&p=20091

They preach with a forked tongue.

I also think Sign Associations need to better self police and enforce the "better business practices, and integrity" of their by laws and code of conduct by their members. Even so far as to say their bigger fish of "fair practices".

Back to the topic specific and away from the broader view, yes I am even guilty of my clients insistence of "Forget the Helen Keller stuff, and get the plaques up, I'll worry about any codes later". But stay away from anything structural that my client wants me to put up without any city approvals, that can bite me in at the ass, any contractor for that matter

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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ILLEGAL SIGNS:

The person to talk to about this is Mitch Chemers from Permit Wiz in Van Nuys CA. He has dealt with the City of Los Angeles on sign blight, signs everywhere, including illegal signage for years.

The man knows the industry top to bottom. I have learned a lot from him. He is also working with CSA now.

AS FAR AS ADA AND FIRE EVAC's:

As far as how the Fire Department works. I have written a dozen Orange County Fire Authority (OCFA) and more LA County Fire Departments including their headquarters to get a GUIDELINE for signage for each county.

OCFA has a basic guideline, but nothing comprehensive. They do have something. But they are into FIRE PREVENTION and FIRE FIGHTING and do the minimum requirement for signage code.

As far as LA County, they have nothing. And that is from Headquarters.

CASE IN POINT. Flynn Signs did a celebrity tower in DOWNTOWN LA. $80K in interior ADA signage. One week, the Fire Inspector comes out and says, "I want the Fire Evac's landscape." Okay. We begin to make all the "temps," and a lot of them. The following week, A DIFFERENT Fire Inspector comes out, and says, "I want the Fire Evac's portrait."

WHAT? Our graphic designer spent 3 days (8 hours x 3 = 24 hours at $85.00 hour) REARRANGING the layout of each fire evac.

Our answer to this and to all sign companies, "WHEN YOU DEAL WITH ONE INSPECTOR, make sure you get their CARD and tell them, I ONLY WANT TO WORK WITH YOU."

No surprises.

AS FAR AS BANNERS GO:

When I drive by a park and see all the BAD BANNER DESIGNS and SIGNAGE, you can see where all the bad signage comes from. Walk in and talk to some of your competitors in town, and you will walk away shaking your head.

There is NO SCHOOL, or TRAINING. So, people do the best they can. Have you see the 99c store sign and design? It's hilarious.

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In our area, a licensed electrical sign shop has to have a Business License with the State, a business license in each incorporated city, a construction contractors license, an electrical contractors license (both with the associated bond fees), licensed electricians to do the electrical work - you cannot even put vinyl on an (illuminated) face in the field unless you are a licensed electrician. A permit is required everywhere you work, and you have to pay someone to create/submit the permits, which take 2-10 hours depending on where the job is. So when Joe Blow comes along and tells some startup business he can do their signs cheaper, is it any wonder some of them succumb to the cost factor?

Our job is educating the customer on what they get when they buy a sign from us versus a sign from JoeBlow. We have some great customers who recognize the quality product we produce.

Recently our state Labor & Industries (Washington State electrical police) has been trying to crack down on illegal signs, and it's nice to see that - perhaps - someone in authority is beginning to care! We'll see....

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In our area, a licensed electrical sign shop has to have a Business License with the State, a business license in each incorporated city, a construction contractors license, an electrical contractors license (both with the associated bond fees), licensed electricians to do the electrical work - you cannot even put vinyl on an (illuminated) face in the field unless you are a licensed electrician. A permit is required everywhere you work, and you have to pay someone to create/submit the permits, which take 2-10 hours depending on where the job is. So when Joe Blow comes along and tells some startup business he can do their signs cheaper, is it any wonder some of them succumb to the cost factor?

Our job is educating the customer on what they get when they buy a sign from us versus a sign from JoeBlow. We have some great customers who recognize the quality product we produce.

Recently our state Labor & Industries (Washington State electrical police) has been trying to crack down on illegal signs, and it's nice to see that - perhaps - someone in authority is beginning to care! We'll see....

Don't you love it when you spend the time educating your client in conversation and time spent on proposals about the differences between yourself vs Joe Blow (sign Hack), and they choose Joe Blow anyway to save $100.00 on a 8k job? Then you take a drive by and really see what that $100.00 saved them?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Erik, I know exactly what you mean! And I have to laugh when they need service on it within the year and they find out JoeBlow doesn't give any kind of warranty. There go the savings!

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  • 1 month later...

I really should post some pictures of the shit I have seen.Neon channel letters wired with thhn,smokin'.Christmas tree lights inside of channel letters,HUH? No passthur's on gas station canopies,Scary they were right next to the tank vent.Enclosure boxes on their sides full of last years leaf's,and my all around favorite...Burned up transformer surrounded by spaghetti looking GTO wire with no passthru's and a note on top that proudly proclaimed "I got it right this time Jim" Yeah I have the fire marshal and inspectors numbers on speed dial.

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In our area, a licensed electrical sign shop has to have a Business License with the State, a business license in each incorporated city, a construction contractors license, an electrical contractors license (both with the associated bond fees), licensed electricians to do the electrical work - you cannot even put vinyl on an (illuminated) face in the field unless you are a licensed electrician. A permit is required everywhere you work, and you have to pay someone to create/submit the permits, which take 2-10 hours depending on where the job is. So when Joe Blow comes along and tells some startup business he can do their signs cheaper, is it any wonder some of them succumb to the cost factor?

Our job is educating the customer on what they get when they buy a sign from us versus a sign from JoeBlow. We have some great customers who recognize the quality product we produce.

Recently our state Labor & Industries (Washington State electrical police) has been trying to crack down on illegal signs, and it's nice to see that - perhaps - someone in authority is beginning to care! We'll see....

You missed one that I wasn't aware of until OSHA reared it's ugly head on one of my jobs. We are supposed to have a first aid certified employee on every job. The OSHA inspector also said we need routine safety meetings, hardhats (only if work was going on overhead), fall restraints, belts were okay but full body harness preferred ($5,000 fine for that one), and reflective high visibility vests if working within so many feet of a street.

OSHA LINK

1910.151(b)

In the absence of an infirmary, clinic, or hospital in near proximity to the workplace which is used for the treatment of all injured employees, a person or persons shall be adequately trained to render first aid. Adequate first aid supplies shall be readily available.

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