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I have had the chance to visit four shops lately for our new trim cap distribution and all these shops had three things in common.

1. They all are custom sign shops that used and produced neon, they also used LED's

2. They have all completely given up on neon production unless it's for repairs

3. Their product of choice is JT LED's because of the price

Very sad to see this happening.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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That is very sad. How much are they paying for the JT's


GOOD things happen for a reason......

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For red, $4.12 a foot


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Someone told me recently that JT LEDs was like buying knock off watches or purses - its illegal and most big reputable stores will not dare carry it.

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I have more and more distributors calling to tell me they are now carrying JT's or JS leds. Last price I got was today. 4.50ft for white and 4.20 for red. I still have yet to use either. It is tempting though. I've used the same brand for 3 years and am hesitant to switch.

I don't worry about the first 6 months to a year. I worry about down the road.

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I use JT probably for 90% of my signs (the other 10% I use whatever the specs in sign programs call out for), been using the product for about 2-3 years, back then I was getting them directly from a sales rep close to my area. Now I get them from N. Glantz & have not had any problems that would make me stop or use a different product. I don't know why this is sad. I've been in the sign industry for over 12 years, back when we used to use an overhead projector on a wall to make our patterns and making our install patterns by laying out the completed sheet metal letters on the ground. I never really mastered the art of blowing glass, I could fix units if need be. But as of 1 1/2 years ago I made the decision that I would no longer service or install neon. It was a pain in the butt to install & it's a pain in the butt to service. I get calls here and there to fix a blinking unit or not lighting unit & I usually end up selling them on changing out their glass to new LED & new acrylic faces & I throw in a warranty, if they choose not to I recommend them to one of my buddies out here who is more than willing to service neon still.

Maybe I missed something, why is using this product sad? Do we not want to be competitive? Don't fortune 500 companies use products that are less costly & in exchange offer more competitive prices? I may be mis-informed here about what exactly is wrong with this product. But I just had one of the best years in the signs business in 09, I think I owe that to the cost & dependability of JT led.

-C

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I use JT probably for 90% of my signs (the other 10% I use whatever the specs in sign programs call out for), been using the product for about 2-3 years, back then I was getting them directly from a sales rep close to my area. Now I get them from N. Glantz & have not had any problems that would make me stop or use a different product. I don't know why this is sad. I've been in the sign industry for over 12 years, back when we used to use an overhead projector on a wall to make our patterns and making our install patterns by laying out the completed sheet metal letters on the ground. I never really mastered the art of blowing glass, I could fix units if need be. But as of 1 1/2 years ago I made the decision that I would no longer service or install neon. It was a pain in the butt to install & it's a pain in the butt to service. I get calls here and there to fix a blinking unit or not lighting unit & I usually end up selling them on changing out their glass to new LED & new acrylic faces & I throw in a warranty, if they choose not to I recommend them to one of my buddies out here who is more than willing to service neon still.

Maybe I missed something, why is using this product sad? Do we not want to be competitive? Don't fortune 500 companies use products that are less costly & in exchange offer more competitive prices? I may be mis-informed here about what exactly is wrong with this product. But I just had one of the best years in the signs business in 09, I think I owe that to the cost & dependability of JT led.

-C

My intention of the topic was not to belittle JT, or state that it's sad to use JT. I was referring to the Neon shops giving up and going LED almost completely. Nothing wrong with LED's either.

But, I don't understand why you think neon is a pain in the ass, or to repair? Haven't checked out JT reds yet, I think I have to now.

As far as colors go, comparing brightness to brightness CCFL vs. JT, it's no where in the same ballpark, or bright compared to other LED's in the same category or class, JT's are just cheap, and you would need a lot o them to keep up with other like brightness signs. they seem to last though, so far.

I do have to say, I am curious about their reds.

Shops that don't offer both CCFL and LED's just really limit themselves, IMO. To each their own I suppose.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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It's all in good fun. I know this is only opinion & that's why I enjoy this website so much.

But I don't think it's sad to see shops changing out to only LED. Times are changing. I only know a handful of shops in my area that offer in house neon services. There are plenty of people saying they can fix neon but they get they're neon from those other shops.

TO ME Neon is a pain! Every single sign installer I know would rather install a LED sign over a neon sign anyday of the week ESPECIALLY ME! I remember when we started using double back neon & we stopped using PK's. We would never go back to installing PK's just for fun or nostalgia same thing with neon.

This is why neon is a PAIN: You have to drill two 1 1/8" holes sometimes in concrete tilt up walls (sure you still have to drill a hole with led but it's usually no bigger than 1/2" & only one per letter. No more bloody knuckles tying in glass in narrow letters. No more calls to the office explaining how you broke a neon unit bringing it up the ladder or tying it in. No more crawling into the soffit to make your jumps to the next letter. No need to pre-wire half your set. No need for 1/2" flexible conduit. No more carrying 30 lbs transformers up soffits. God the more I talk about it, reminds me of the good old days (woulda been better with LED, those days were hot in sunny so cal). You cut your installation time by half. Also you cut your go-backs to replace broken units by 100%. The installers keep red & white leds in the truck in case something doesn't light up when they test it before they leave. Any installer knows the positives of installing LED to neon.

Neon looks great... always will. I love Vegas I love old americana signs, but the truth in my shop is that neon is a specialty item. Sure we can get it & install it but I could focus my energy in other products & other services & save myself the neon headache.

As far as brightness goes, that's not an issue with me wanting to provide it or not provide it.

It comes down to educating a customer, I can push a product to my customers all I want, but it comes down to cost & the question 75% of my customers ask me..... "you're the sign guy, what would you use?" I use JT led. It's bright enough it get's your point accross & it's cost efficient. I can't afford to drive a BMW I drive a Toyota but it gets me from A to B just as well & it's dependable. Just not as flashy.

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Neon and glass are just one of those technologies that will not go away. There is a reason they find glass artifacts from thousands of years ago - glass is designed to last.

As far as not driving a BMW and driving a Toyota instead...do you think there is any reason why you are not driving a Chinese car yet? They are so much less money.

When I ask the question above I always get the same answers: 1) Chinese cars are probably not reliable, 2) I wouldnt put my kids in a Chinese car - they are probably not as safe.

And then we have these lovely global issues like Melamine contaminated milk and lead in children's toys, etc as Chinese vendors try to make products less expensive.

So if the world continues to look for "cheap" products as opposed to "high quality" products - dont you think there will be some reprecussions?

Also - another question - your significant other is usually by law in the USA considered to be yours - right? Well if Mr X down the street decided to walk in your house and take your spouse and use them for their purposes without paying you money or respect for "using" something that is yours - how would you feel?

For those Americans on this board - we are all proud to be Americans - if that is the case why dont we respect the US Government office that protects things that legally ties things that you invent to be your technology? Will we selectively decide when we want to be American - if we can get a "cheaper" illegal product?

In New Zealand there are a bunch of Chinese companies trying to bring in "cheap" flat panel TVs - the government does not allow technologies in that "infringe patents". They have a bit more respect for honoring what a person legally claimed as their own.

Edited by Manuel Lynch
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Also - another question - your significant other is usually by law in the USA considered to be yours - right? Well if Mr X down the street decided to walk in your house and take your spouse and use them for their purposes without paying you money or respect for "using" something that is yours - how would you feel?

Hmmmmmmm, wonder if a lease is possible? COD of course. Then it could just be one of those things where we just see each other on the weekend,..in passing :P


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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For those Americans on this board - we are all proud to be Americans - if that is the case why dont we respect the US Government office that protects things that legally ties things that you invent to be your technology? Will we selectively decide when we want to be American - if we can get a "cheaper" illegal product?

As for that comment ... get real! You've never shopped at Wal-Mart. They sell products with technology infringements all day every day (PROSCAN tv's). Are hard working americans not american enough cause they have to shop there. Wal-Mart puts small main street buisness out all the time. Have you ever bought coffee at Starbucks, they used to practice un-lawful tactics to put their competitors out of business. The're an AMERICAN business, a successful one most would say.

Just cause I shop at Wal-Mart doesn't mean I don't support small business, heck I am a small business. When they start offering signs at low cost prices I'm gonna be S.O.L. or hopefully retired and living prosperously.

I've bought coffee here and there at a starbucks anytime I feel like shelling out 5 dollars for caffeine water.

This "America / Real American" isn't fair. I don't believe your more or less american than i am cause of where I buy LED's or which I choose to use. I feel bad if someone steals your hard work, if you made a design & someone stole it & is profiting from it. That's not right and no one should do it!

We're all americans trying to get the best deal we can at the best price we can. It's in our nature to be thrifty. Those that don't have to won't ever understand.

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This "America / Real American" isn't fair. I don't believe your more or less american than i am cause of where I buy LED's or which I choose to use. I feel bad if someone steals your hard work, if you made a design & someone stole it & is profiting from it. That's not right and no one should do it!

Agreed - we are all the same if we are Americans either by birth, immigration/naturalization, etc. And to that end you are also responsible to abide by the law. And do you know that if you are buying, using, selling, benefitting from etc a technology or product that "infringes" a patent or trademark claim that you can be held responsible?

I dont think Walmart, Home Depot, Target or any other reputable and public company would sell a patent infringing product if they received notice of such - they have big pockets and they know they would be a huge target.

As far as the small guy or small company - catch a clue folks - talk to one of the kids who got sued as a result of downloading copyrighted music off Napster and has to pay hundreds of thousands $$$.

Eventually the companies, vendors, sales channels that cut corners wind up getting caught spending more (money) than they ever expected. The Chinese people that made the harmful products got a death sentence - all to try and make it cheaper for the thrifty shopper. And do you think Toyota is laughing as they drive to the bank to get a cashiers check to pay the US Government $16mil for not being straightforward?

Having been on both sides of the law it is one thing that is VERY American - it cost a lot and will be a major bummer to those that seemed to ignore it.

I would be cautious on what you use and what you sell your customers...they can be sued and so can the people that sold it to you. I just hate seeing people being naive to the realities of some of the finer points of LED technology.

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It would be great to be able to compete on a basis of only dealing with companies that are of total high moralality people, companies that don't break any laws and use only the finest quality products no matter what the cost.

The bottom line is, I have to compete with other sign wholesalers. So I have to choose products that allow me to compete in the market, have confidense that my product will last and represent me well enough that the customer will return time and again to by more channel letters and other signs, and not have to prematurally service what they buy from me.

That's how I choose products. LED's especially. For me, neon is a pain in the ass. It's not the neons fault. With led's I can train a new employee to install and wire them in a short time. I don't have to worry about broken glass in installation and shipping, (that's a big one). I love neon as a light source. I think it looks great. But led's make my life less stressful. Like everything else in life, it's all about balance.

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Neon and glass are just one of those technologies that will not go away. There is a reason they find glass artifacts from thousands of years ago - glass is designed to last.

As far as not driving a BMW and driving a Toyota instead...do you think there is any reason why you are not driving a Chinese car yet? They are so much less money.

When I ask the question above I always get the same answers: 1) Chinese cars are probably not reliable, 2) I wouldnt put my kids in a Chinese car - they are probably not as safe.

And then we have these lovely global issues like Melamine contaminated milk and lead in children's toys, etc as Chinese vendors try to make products less expensive.

So if the world continues to look for "cheap" products as opposed to "high quality" products - dont you think there will be some reprecussions?

Also - another question - your significant other is usually by law in the USA considered to be yours - right? Well if Mr X down the street decided to walk in your house and take your spouse and use them for their purposes without paying you money or respect for "using" something that is yours - how would you feel?

For those Americans on this board - we are all proud to be Americans - if that is the case why dont we respect the US Government office that protects things that legally ties things that you invent to be your technology? Will we selectively decide when we want to be American - if we can get a "cheaper" illegal product?

In New Zealand there are a bunch of Chinese companies trying to bring in "cheap" flat panel TVs - the government does not allow technologies in that "infringe patents". They have a bit more respect for honoring what a person legally claimed as their own.

My company has often used the JT's with no performance issues what so ever. From your article it sounds like the JT's are infringing on some type of patent rights. If that is an accurate statement will you please elaborate a little bit more? I would agree I would rather work with companies with integrity, but so far I view this company as first class.

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yea is JT infringing on a pat. or not?

Just a straight yes or no answer please!

As far as neon being a pain... it probably is to people who don't know what they are doing. If a true professional makes it and installs it, it will last a VERY VERY long time with minimal to no maintenance. The real problem with neon is uneducated hacks making/installing it.


Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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LOL!! UNEDUCATED HACKS HUH!! That's the "real" problem with neon. LMFAO!!

(Again this is not an attack towards neon or how great it looks. This is my own personal preference & opinion. Which is right!!)

That's not the problem with neon.

The problem is the amount of time it takes to manufacture & the amount of time it takes to install.

Neon Patterns, blowing glass, burning in vs a box of LED ready to use out the box

The problem is the amount of amps it draws per transformer. At least six times more than a LED power supply.

The problem is the 30 lbs transformers, you have to mount & carry up behind the wall.

Take this example. If two sign shops of the same caliber were to manufacture & install a sign. Except one had to do it with neon & one with LED. I'm sure the LED manufacturer will be done faster. In a race with equally qualified installers, the one installing LED will be done in half the time anyday of the week. Doesn't matter how you manufacture the neon or how qualified the installers are. If they are of the same caliber, LED installs faster.

LED or neon are both going to last, with minimal to no maintenance.

Doing things the NEON way, to me seems like a pain but i'm sure i'm not alone here.

Faster means you can move on to the next one and make more income in the long run. I live in So Cal. I can't survive off doing one or two jobs a week. I need to be faster & LED helps with that. There's a cost for sunny days & having an actor for a governator (lol). It's expensive to live here, so we have to be faster & cheaper than the next guy to make decent money. PLUS and this is key, after completion of a sign I get payed like i'm sure most of us do. With NEON there can always be an accident, no matter what level of installer you are (hack or not). Accidents happen & the sign may not be completed which means you don't get paid. With LED I always finish & eliminate those accidents completely. Not only that I've spent way too many nights & weekends installing signs with neon. If LED was around then I coulda made alot more happy hours!

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LOL!! UNEDUCATED HACKS HUH!! That's the "real" problem with neon. LMFAO!!

(Again this is not an attack towards neon or how great it looks. This is my own personal preference & opinion. Which is right!!)

That's not the problem with neon.

The problem is the amount of time it takes to manufacture & the amount of time it takes to install.

Neon Patterns, blowing glass, burning in vs a box of LED ready to use out the box

The problem is the amount of amps it draws per transformer. At least six times more than a LED power supply.

The problem is the 30 lbs transformers, you have to mount & carry up behind the wall.

Take this example. If two sign shops of the same caliber were to manufacture & install a sign. Except one had to do it with neon & one with LED. I'm sure the LED manufacturer will be done faster. In a race with equally qualified installers, the one installing LED will be done in half the time anyday of the week. Doesn't matter how you manufacture the neon or how qualified the installers are. If they are of the same caliber, LED installs faster.

LED or neon are both going to last, with minimal to no maintenance.

Doing things the NEON way, to me seems like a pain but i'm sure i'm not alone here.

Faster means you can move on to the next one and make more income in the long run. I live in So Cal. I can't survive off doing one or two jobs a week. I need to be faster & LED helps with that. There's a cost for sunny days & having an actor for a governator (lol). It's expensive to live here, so we have to be faster & cheaper than the next guy to make decent money. PLUS and this is key, after completion of a sign I get payed like i'm sure most of us do. With NEON there can always be an accident, no matter what level of installer you are (hack or not). Accidents happen & the sign may not be completed which means you don't get paid. With LED I always finish & eliminate those accidents completely. Not only that I've spent way too many nights & weekends installing signs with neon. If LED was around then I coulda made alot more happy hours!

Sorry but you are wrong Hacks are the biggest problem

Your statement about burning in taking a long time shows you know nothing about neon. A properly processed tube will come up very quickly (hacks try to make tubes also) And my wife has no problem carrying a tranny up to install maybe you should hire guys (or gals) that are not wimps LOL

At 29 years old I'm sure you have way more experience that us old guys

What LED co did you say you work for?

Edited by chubbygumby

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Im not on here to attack anyone. I don't see why you're so angry that I prefer LED.

I'm not here to attack your old age or call you an old dog.

Or sit here and write to defend myself from some sign guy in Indiana.

I know Indiana is the new hub for sign innovation & products so I can't compete with that.

It doesn't matter to me who you are or what you think, cause your in INDIANA a state where I don't want to be in.

What matters to me is voicing my opinion. I'm not here to write something that pleases you.

You're right I am 29. A 29 year old that isn't going to change anything in the sign industry & I don't care!

& FOR THE FACT NEITHER ARE YOU. WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT NEON IS OUTDATED & MOST WOULD PREFER TO INSTALL LED,

WETHER THEY VOICE IT OR NOT. IT'S REALITY, FACE IT OLD TIMER,

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Im not on here to attack anyone. I don't see why you're so angry that I prefer LED.

I'm not here to attack your old age or call you an old dog.

Or sit here and write to defend myself from some sign guy in Indiana.

I know Indiana is the new hub for sign innovation & products so I can't compete with that.

It doesn't matter to me who you are or what you think, cause your in INDIANA a state where I don't want to be in.

What matters to me is voicing my opinion. I'm not here to write something that pleases you.

You're right I am 29. A 29 year old that isn't going to change anything in the sign industry & I don't care!

& FOR THE FACT NEITHER ARE YOU. WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT NEON IS OUTDATED & MOST WOULD PREFER TO INSTALL LED,

WETHER THEY VOICE IT OR NOT. IT'S REALITY, FACE IT OLD TIMER,

WOW .....


Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Geeze, I don't want to take sides here, but LEDs will never replace exposed neon. We are using more LEDs in signs for halo lighting and certain applications, but we still have customers who want neon, and it is less expensive, including labor. And we don't break neon on every sign, so ..... I do like most of the led halo stuff we've done (check out the Arnolds sign on our website under gallery/channel letters). There's some to be said for both types of lighting. I think if you limit yourself to one particular aspect (LED or NEON), you are limiting your client base. Just mho...

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I do not like speculation and hearsay - keep this simple

Please call Nichia USA in Michigan at (248) 349-9800 and ask them if a company or technology violates their intellectual property.

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Geeze, I don't want to take sides here, but LEDs will never replace exposed neon. We are using more LEDs in signs for halo lighting and certain applications, but we still have customers who want neon, and it is less expensive, including labor. And we don't break neon on every sign, so ..... I do like most of the led halo stuff we've done (check out the Arnolds sign on our website under gallery/channel letters). There's some to be said for both types of lighting. I think if you limit yourself to one particular aspect (LED or NEON), you are limiting your client base. Just mho...

Very well put


Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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LOL!! UNEDUCATED HACKS HUH!! That's the "real" problem with neon. LMFAO!!

(Again this is not an attack towards neon or how great it looks. This is my own personal preference & opinion. Which is right!!)

That's not the problem with neon.

The problem is the amount of time it takes to manufacture & the amount of time it takes to install.

Neon Patterns, blowing glass, burning in vs a box of LED ready to use out the box

The problem is the amount of amps it draws per transformer. At least six times more than a LED power supply.

The problem is the 30 lbs transformers, you have to mount & carry up behind the wall.

Take this example. If two sign shops of the same caliber were to manufacture & install a sign. Except one had to do it with neon & one with LED. I'm sure the LED manufacturer will be done faster. In a race with equally qualified installers, the one installing LED will be done in half the time anyday of the week. Doesn't matter how you manufacture the neon or how qualified the installers are. If they are of the same caliber, LED installs faster.

LED or neon are both going to last, with minimal to no maintenance.

Doing things the NEON way, to me seems like a pain but i'm sure i'm not alone here.

Faster means you can move on to the next one and make more income in the long run. I live in So Cal. I can't survive off doing one or two jobs a week. I need to be faster & LED helps with that. There's a cost for sunny days & having an actor for a governator (lol). It's expensive to live here, so we have to be faster & cheaper than the next guy to make decent money. PLUS and this is key, after completion of a sign I get payed like i'm sure most of us do. With NEON there can always be an accident, no matter what level of installer you are (hack or not). Accidents happen & the sign may not be completed which means you don't get paid. With LED I always finish & eliminate those accidents completely. Not only that I've spent way too many nights & weekends installing signs with neon. If LED was around then I coulda made alot more happy hours!

Wow, I don't even know what to say other than from YOUR personal experiences that you should be thankful for the existence OF LED's. I've never heard of someone having so many issues with neon or taking so long to install it, especially for channel letters. But I seriously think it may be a lack of proper experience (no personal attack on you) on your part, just an observation upon reading your posts.

Now, on the energy consumption about LED's being so low, nothing can be further from the truth unless you're talking about reds, but even that is a huge exaggeration on your part with 6 times, the flip side red neon does not degrade in light output because of no Hg or phosphors. The light output you are comparing to using JT LED's in white won't even be in the same ballpark as a white neon, so right there of course your power consumption will be extremely low. One would have to fabricate a very large diameter tube somewhere in the 20's to give equal light output and more accurate energy numbers. To give a more fair comparison you're going to have to use a HP white like GE, Sylvania or Axiom. You save a little power using equal light output LED's but it's not huge my any means or a big chunk of change in saving for the client

If your working too much to stay afloat, that suggests your not charging enough. I personally prefer quality, high performing signs that are very bright and eye catching, I work less and charge accordingly for what I do. I'm home to eat with the family just about every evening.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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YOURE ALL HAXS!!!!

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"If your working too much to stay afloat, that suggests your not charging enough. I personally prefer quality, high performing signs that are very bright and eye catching, I work less and charge accordingly for what I do. I'm home to eat with the family just about every evening."

Erik, I couldn't agree more!

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