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YOURE ALL HAXS!!!!

:lol_hitting:

"If your working too much to stay afloat, that suggests your not charging enough. I personally prefer quality, high performing signs that are very bright and eye catching, I work less and charge accordingly for what I do. I'm home to eat with the family just about every evening."

Erik, I couldn't agree more!

I don't understand this.

I have a friend in this biz who makes signs, non-illuminated signs. His mentality is too work a lot and charge less in the name of "making himself busy". But he works till 3 am at his shop and he has two young toddlers. Back when our close mutual friend was my roommate we would partner up and land some big jobs that we would join in on. They, actually worked together for years doing signs together prior. When we would land a job, I would set the price and pretty much call out the materials. THey had a bad babit of using cheap materials and charging cheap for their contracts. On our first job together they were doubting we would land it because of price, upon the signed job they would look at me with a stunned look on their faces and ask "we can get that kind of money for this???" I figured in that short time of a partnership he would have learned something from me, I guess not. I think the mentality for them was the "retail" mentality and treating a trade like a commodity.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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YOURE ALL HAXS!!!!

Wait, I'm female - wouldn't that make me a HAXETTE? Or, since I'm older, probably a Haxma'am.

:filleloupgarou:

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Wow, I don't even know what to say other than from YOUR personal experiences that you should be thankful for the existence OF LED's. I've never heard of someone having so many issues with neon or taking so long to install it, especially for channel letters. But I seriously think it may be a lack of proper experience (no personal attack on you) on your part, just an observation upon reading your posts.

Now, on the energy consumption about LED's being so low, nothing can be further from the truth unless you're talking about reds, but even that is a huge exaggeration on your part with 6 times, the flip side red neon does not degrade in light output because of no Hg or phosphors. The light output you are comparing to using JT LED's in white won't even be in the same ballpark as a white neon, so right there of course your power consumption will be extremely low. One would have to fabricate a very large diameter tube somewhere in the 20's to give equal light output and more accurate energy numbers. To give a more fair comparison you're going to have to use a HP white like GE, Sylvania or Axiom. You save a little power using equal light output LED's but it's not huge my any means or a big chunk of change in saving for the client

If your working too much to stay afloat, that suggests your not charging enough. I personally prefer quality, high performing signs that are very bright and eye catching, I work less and charge accordingly for what I do. I'm home to eat with the family just about every evening.

perfectly said captain

Has anyone seen my cane? I seem to have misplaced it LOL

Edited by Westcoast Sign Guy
quotes

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT NEON IS OUTDATED & MOST WOULD PREFER TO INSTALL LED,

WETHER THEY VOICE IT OR NOT. IT'S REALITY, FACE IT OLD TIMER,

Hello Carlos, I have been reading the posts and I sense hostile feeling towards neon. Is it because you could not get the hang of it after a year and a half, maybe the breakage was your fault installing it. Neon is not outdated as you state. It has been around for a long time and will be here for longer. Funny part is that there are probably hundreds of thousands of tubes that have been lit longer than you you have been alive. Neon is a craft and a art. You mentioned The Wal Mart thing and how you like to get in and out of a job fast. That gives the impression that you preffer things cheap and quick.

I chuckled at the lugging 30lb transformers and got an even bigger laugh about how it is 6X more efficent. You must have been beleiving the propaganda that has been spoon fed to the industry.

Real sign shops will evaluate all situations and possibilities and pick the rite light source for the application. LED is not the answer to all applications, Only if you are skilled at weeding vinyl and having a computer spit out prints.

When I was 29 I was full of spit and fire but the difference is that I was hand lettering (real paint), gold leafing silk screening, doing all types of metal work, Basically doing real sign work. I have been bending glass for close to 20 years and never encountered the problems you have. Maybe you should find a real glass shop.

Ya know, Smart companies sub thier work out to qualified and experienced shops who specialize in differnt avenues and make a percentage. Think about it, you are making money and not doing anything. That will give you more time to do designz. You never did mention which LED you use or is the cheapest you can get without the concern for lifespan, do you do large scale work or just Mom and Pop jobs that are looking for "just get it lit and cheap".

You are probably getting pissed at me by now but you should educate yourself better on the pros and cons of a light source. Your 2 statements (actually more) just shows how uninformed you are and blows all credability to your rants. This is a great site and hopefully you can learn more about the industry.

One last thing, You said about how much longer it takes you to install neon on site. If thats the fact then you are building and installing all wrong or just dont know the rite way to do it.

Have a great day, if you visit the neon groups wesite or our website under news there is an educational video on led vs neon, cost, brightness and power consumption. Check it out.


GOOD things happen for a reason......

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I want to apologize for the 1.5 year glass bending comment, You stopped serviceing 1.5 years ago. Let me ask you. Do you get an onsite UL approval for modifying a sign when you cheap out on a service call or are the signs UL at all.


GOOD things happen for a reason......

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LMFAO!!!!! :smilie_auslachen:

Help I've fallen and can't get up...

I should have got life alert LOL :firedevil:

Edited by chubbygumby

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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Golly, I can't even remember the last time I heard one of our installers broke neon that they were installing. I know it happens from time to time, but geez louise

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Golly, I can't even remember the last time I heard one of our installers broke neon that they were installing. I know it happens from time to time, but geez louise

Here's what's funny. I hear that statement of installers breaking neon all the time, or having to pay for second trips etc, to excuse having REAL experience.

The real truth?

Hire better help. It's that simple. Clumsy installers can break a lot more expensive items than neon, they can, drop drills, drop/break misc expensive tools, lose tools, hurt themselves or others, wreck your work truck, damage shop machinery, say something unexpected to the client, install a sign not to the plan which can cause endless trips, the ENDLESS list can go on.

Breaking a neon unit is SERIOUSLY, the last great concern a shop owner should stress about. A unit costs nothing in material, only a little labor. I'd rather break a unit than drop a expensive Hilti Drill.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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That guy sounds a lot like the fellow that posted a few times just a while back about ridiculous savings with LED but has learned the english language better


Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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That guy sounds a lot like the fellow that posted a few times just a while back about ridiculous savings with LED but has learned the english language better

You are not suggesting that they logon with different names and that they might actually be LED companies??? Now that would be disingenious - wouldnt it?

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That guy sounds a lot like the fellow that posted a few times just a while back about ridiculous savings with LED but has learned the english language better

You are not suggesting that they logon with different names and that they might actually be LED companies??? Now that would be disingenious - wouldnt it?

Shouldn't somebody go after Nglantz if they are carrying a product that violates patents? They are the exclusive distributor, and an American based Co.

I think neon has stood the test of time, don't they have a sign museum full of them w/ original glass?

I'm worried LED is going to kill the service side of the industry... and if no young people get passed along the art of bending because LED is cheaper that would be a shame.

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I have had the chance to visit four shops lately for our new trim cap distribution and all these shops had three things in common.

1. They all are custom sign shops that used and produced neon, they also used LED's

2. They have all completely given up on neon production unless it's for repairs

3. Their product of choice is JT LED's because of the price

Very sad to see this happening.

Remember that you always get what you pay for. I will bet that after 3-4 years you will see those cheap white LED's come back to bite you in the butt. Whereas if you used neon you would get many years of life on of your sign and a very happy customer. Over 25 years I have never had a unhappy customer using neon with the average life of the glass well over 10 years.

I have had a few failurers using LED's and I can tell you trying to change out LED's while the letters are on the wall is no easy task especially the small letters that you use LED's on because the neon was to hard to install into. Try to charge your customer full price to service the LED failure and see his reaction.

There is nothing wrong with using quality LED's just tell your customer the truthon how long the white will last. I perfer neon where ever I can because it has NEVER failed me.

Also compare the light output of white neon to the LED's Use the 7328 white because the milkey white looks terrable during the day.

Just my thoughts.

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I have had the chance to visit four shops lately for our new trim cap distribution and all these shops had three things in common.

1. They all are custom sign shops that used and produced neon, they also used LED's

2. They have all completely given up on neon production unless it's for repairs

3. Their product of choice is JT LED's because of the price

Very sad to see this happening.

Remember that you always get what you pay for. I will bet that after 3-4 years you will see those cheap white LED's come back to bite you in the butt. Whereas if you used neon you would get many years of life on of your sign and a very happy customer. Over 25 years I have never had a unhappy customer using neon with the average life of the glass well over 10 years.

I have had a few failurers using LED's and I can tell you trying to change out LED's while the letters are on the wall is no easy task especially the small letters that you use LED's on because the neon was to hard to install into. Try to charge your customer full price to service the LED failure and see his reaction.

There is nothing wrong with using quality LED's just tell your customer the truthon how long the white will last. I perfer neon where ever I can because it has NEVER failed me.

Also compare the light output of white neon to the LED's Use the 7328 white because the milkey white looks terrable during the day.

Just my thoughts.

I really think LED are getting to be a viable alternative. But I've still have a lighted clock in shop circa 1950 with the same tube and core and coil transformer.

However

1.) All of the manufacturers keep changing their packages and power supplies - so if some modules fail you don't have a replacement.

2.) Field Problems - I'm finally confident with one manufacturer after using them for special applications for 3 years. You WILL have problems with BRANDX LEDs. You can make LEDs push more light by overheating the LED - the LED will then fail earlier. If the LED is hot to touch don't use it.

3.) Comparison LED and Neon - I don't think are particularly fair. Don't compare a LED against a neon tube with a magnetic transformer - compare it against a neon tube with electronic transformer.

4.) Extended Life (or course this messes with note 3 above) - a quality magnetic transformer with neon will last at least 10 to 20 or more years. Electronics WILL fail before that. Just basic MTBF issues in an electronic power supplies (capacitors begin to fail after too many hours) will result in the LEDs failing. Of course this is going to happen with electronic transformer for Neon and other lamps.

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2.) Field Problems - I'm finally confident with one manufacturer after using them for special applications for 3 years. You WILL have problems with BRANDX LEDs. You can make LEDs push more light by overheating the LED - the LED will then fail earlier. If the LED is hot to touch don't use it.

I dont understand why LED module companies dont have the LED chip maker that they use in their products publish a document that says "yes, you are using our LED chip in a way that is consistent with how we say that the product will last 50,000 hours". We do this all the time with Nichia - we have them conduct the testing on our parts to verify that we are UNDER DRIVING the LEDs.

Hell, we were asked by one of the largest restaurant chains to prove our parts were not "over driven" and we just provided them with what Nichia tested.

Most of the time LED module companies are too ashamed or fearful of telling you whose LEDs they are using.

There is a reason why Apple uses Nichia LEDs in their products - they are designed to last a long long time and they cannot be inconsistent in color. They also are the most efficient or highest efficacy so they would use less battery power.

But that is just my opinion - and I happen to be the one that was involved with the Patents that outlined how to properly heatsink LEDs to maximize performance and lifetime.

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2.) Field Problems - I'm finally confident with one manufacturer after using them for special applications for 3 years. You WILL have problems with BRANDX LEDs. You can make LEDs push more light by overheating the LED - the LED will then fail earlier. If the LED is hot to touch don't use it.

I dont understand why LED module companies dont have the LED chip maker that they use in their products publish a document that says "yes, you are using our LED chip in a way that is consistent with how we say that the product will last 50,000 hours". We do this all the time with Nichia - we have them conduct the testing on our parts to verify that we are UNDER DRIVING the LEDs.

Hell, we were asked by one of the largest restaurant chains to prove our parts were not "over driven" and we just provided them with what Nichia tested.

Most of the time LED module companies are too ashamed or fearful of telling you whose LEDs they are using.

There is a reason why Apple uses Nichia LEDs in their products - they are designed to last a long long time and they cannot be inconsistent in color. They also are the most efficient or highest efficacy so they would use less battery power.

But that is just my opinion - and I happen to be the one that was involved with the Patents that outlined how to properly heatsink LEDs to maximize performance and lifetime.

Other pet peeve - DO NOT use a product that consists of printed circuit boards with nothing to protect them from the inside of a sign. Conformal coatings are meant to keep moisture out - but they are NOT meant for packaging. Would you buy a cell phone (it would look sort of cool however) that didn't have a case around it - then don't buy an LED package with nothing but a conformal coating around it. Heat, weather, pests will break the coating down and the LEDs will fail.

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1. We do not use conformal coating. We use a patented insulation displacement connector system that is designed for use under the hood of a car - a bit more stringent than in a channel letter.

2. We use a non-corrosive silver based solder - the same thing used on Satellite solar panels and military electronics - I have a bit of experience in this since I used to be top exec at the worlds leading military electronics company Microsemi (NASDAQ: MSCC)

3. The LEDs from Nichia...well if people took the time to read the material from LED chip companies they would realize that any type of potted LED that uses any organic material to "protect" the LED is actually what ultimately causes it to fail. Heat and light do this strange thing to organic materials...it fade them. So then the LED light will be internally reflecting its own light and heat onto itself and causing itself to fail.

You should note that Nichia of Japan does testing on their LEDs to be in 60C ambient (now that is hot place) and 80% humidity (not too pleasant). And their parts are shown, proven, to last well over 50,000 hours.

And please note - we are a New Zealand company - it rains a bit more in New Zealand than most any other country in the world....so we have a lot of experience with "the elements" so to say...and as far as salt water....well i think no matter where you are in the country you can sea either the Pacific Ocean or the Tasman sea at all times.

So I must say the information you have is a bit outdated and incorrect - I would love to talk to you more about this - call me anytime - you can reach me at 702-595-9777 in the USA.

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1. We do not use conformal coating. We use a patented insulation displacement connector system that is designed for use under the hood of a car - a bit more stringent than in a channel letter.

2. We use a non-corrosive silver based solder - the same thing used on Satellite solar panels and military electronics - I have a bit of experience in this since I used to be top exec at the worlds leading military electronics company Microsemi (NASDAQ: MSCC)

3. The LEDs from Nichia...well if people took the time to read the material from LED chip companies they would realize that any type of potted LED that uses any organic material to "protect" the LED is actually what ultimately causes it to fail. Heat and light do this strange thing to organic materials...it fade them. So then the LED light will be internally reflecting its own light and heat onto itself and causing itself to fail.

You should note that Nichia of Japan does testing on their LEDs to be in 60C ambient (now that is hot place) and 80% humidity (not too pleasant). And their parts are shown, proven, to last well over 50,000 hours.

And please note - we are a New Zealand company - it rains a bit more in New Zealand than most any other country in the world....so we have a lot of experience with "the elements" so to say...and as far as salt water....well i think no matter where you are in the country you can sea either the Pacific Ocean or the Tasman sea at all times.

So I must say the information you have is a bit outdated and incorrect - I would love to talk to you more about this - call me anytime - you can reach me at 702-595-9777 in the USA.

Didn't know we were discussing Aziom Product, looking back in the thread we aren't. I've haven't seen your design specifically but have seen others which use conformal coating that I wouldn't use. Not sure what the insulation connector system has to do with conformal coating, but using the automotive analogy - I do not see any exposed circuit boards under the hood of my car I don't want to see them on the inside of my sign.

Long term what will happen to a exposed conformably coated PC board when the line side of the power feed rests against it - eventually it will short and energize the class 2 circuit with 115VAC. I don't like this design and will never use it.

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if you have primary voltage laying on a class 2 LED module - you have a different problem entirely. If your exposed wires are able to penetrate a PCB than you are using some very thin non-UL approved PC board materials. Not sure if most people know but the PC board material you use in LED has to be a UL approved FIRE RESISTANT type.

THere are a lot of exposed PC boards in automotive applications...behind the dashboard is a pretty bad world. And you should see how many exposed PCBs there are in military and satellite equipment - pretty harsh environment in Iraq or out on the open sea.

And the subject of this thread as a reminder is:

1. Neon is going away - and I personally, people on this board know that, think that sucks - it is an art and it is something you can rely on to last forever. I love neon. In fact I think that if you need exposed neon look I would NEVER use an LED system - I would recommend a higher efficacy CCFL system from Garret for example or neon.

2. The thread is also about how sad it is how many companies are just using inexpensive, cheap, knock off Chinese LED products that are dirt cheap but wont last long and bring down the whole sign industry that historically had been an industry about artist and craftsmen.

We happen to make a high quality LED system that is used in a lot of very large USA national programs and are recognized for being made in 100% Pure New Zealand where the art and craftsmanship is still appreciated, respected, and sought after.

And - I am not one to sit on the sideline and watch a bunch of people state a bunch of information that is factually incorrect or just not true. This is a forum for people to learn from other like minded folks who still want to make a good product that is high quality and is cost effective.

Sounds like you know what you like and no one can tell you otherwise - that is respectable and appreciated. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me - I do appreciate your input.

Have a great day.

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the people not wanting to use neon because 'it's a pain' don't know how to make good neon and/or don;t know the proper way to install and service neon. most information out there about LED is bogus with regard to neon 'running hot' and LED being more efficient. at some point in the not so far away future, all of those LED sign will be replaced with neon. LED doesn't last as long as neon, not as bright, not as many color choices.

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the people not wanting to use neon because 'it's a pain' don't know how to make good neon and/or don;t know the proper way to install and service neon. most information out there about LED is bogus with regard to neon 'running hot' and LED being more efficient. at some point in the not so far away future, all of those LED sign will be replaced with neon. LED doesn't last as long as neon, not as bright, not as many color choices.

Thanks for chiming in!


Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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...and don't even get me started on the whole 'green' thing!! another scam!!

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the people not wanting to use neon because 'it's a pain' don't know how to make good neon and/or don;t know the proper way to install and service neon. most information out there about LED is bogus with regard to neon 'running hot' and LED being more efficient. at some point in the not so far away future, all of those LED sign will be replaced with neon. LED doesn't last as long as neon, not as bright, not as many color choices.

Thanks for chiming in!

I'm an OF and have not been very sold on LEDs except for special applications (you can't beat them on small channel letters not on a raceway) but some of the newer products (in nice packaging) are going to take the place of neon and HO lamps. You will never beat the reliability of a magnetic transformer with a properly designed and installed piece of neon. But magnetic transformers are being banned I believe in 2012 - so it's no longer an alternative.

You shouldn't run out and use LEDs without thinking about it - much as a prior generation did with HO lamps for neon (which was really stupid).

Here is one example you cannot do with LEDs - client wanted a specific color temperature lighting and neon had a wide pallet to choose from post-2140-127298252255.jpg

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Being banned in 2012 where?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Being banned in 2012 where?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In the USA. Big push to get rid of "magnetic" products...which I think is absurd. The difference according to the people in "the know" between a magnetic and electronic ballast are as follows:

Magnetic is less than 60% efficient

Electronic is more than 60% efficient

And trust me - there are a lot of inefficient electronic ballasts hovering in the 60% range.

I am a huge fan of Magnetic transformers - take halogen lighting for example. We can make and LED glass bulb that is the same performance now as a 50 Watt halogen that only consumes 3-4 Watts and is the same warm color temperature and same color rendering....BUT....all the people that want to use this part use a crappy electronic transformer that has a "minimum load requirement".

So let me get this right - with a magnetic transformer it will work and I can reduce the lighting power from 50Watts to 3-4 Watts - but because I have to use an "electronic transformer" there is a minimum power load requirement and it will not work!

Stupid.

Neon and legacy technologies brought some of the best innovations. We are believers in using the best of the past merged together with the innovation of the future. People to quickly forget what got us here... we are firm believers in studying and respecting the history of a technology.

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Being banned in 2012 where?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In the USA. Big push to get rid of "magnetic" products...which I think is absurd. The difference according to the people in "the know" between a magnetic and electronic ballast are as follows:

Magnetic is less than 60% efficient

Electronic is more than 60% efficient

And trust me - there are a lot of inefficient electronic ballasts hovering in the 60% range.

I am a huge fan of Magnetic transformers - take halogen lighting for example. We can make and LED glass bulb that is the same performance now as a 50 Watt halogen that only consumes 3-4 Watts and is the same warm color temperature and same color rendering....BUT....all the people that want to use this part use a crappy electronic transformer that has a "minimum load requirement".

So let me get this right - with a magnetic transformer it will work and I can reduce the lighting power from 50Watts to 3-4 Watts - but because I have to use an "electronic transformer" there is a minimum power load requirement and it will not work!

Stupid.

Neon and legacy technologies brought some of the best innovations. We are believers in using the best of the past merged together with the innovation of the future. People to quickly forget what got us here... we are firm believers in studying and respecting the history of a technology.

Does anyone know the specifics on the magnetic transformer ban ?

As much as I don't like the long term reliability of electronic transformers, in addition to being more efficient they also have a good power factor (less inductive) which means your owner may (depending on their metering system) pay less for the same amount of KWH.

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