Nichia patents expiring? what have you heard?

[manuellynch]

Recently I have heard information from companies that Nichia LEDs patents are expiring - what do you know of this?

[Erik Sine]

I haven't heard, but I sure would liek to know

[manuellynch]

I haven't heard, but I sure would liek to know

I have been told this by some large sign companies in Australia, Germany, UK, and the USA. Most say they heard it from JT LED.

[YYZ]

I haven't heard a thing - and would think Dan or Shawn would be the guys to ask.

[Brian]

With all due respect... If the pat. expires there goes your main marketing ploy that all others are pat infringement

[YYZ]

With all due respect... If the pat. expires there goes your main marketing ploy that all others are pat infringement

It's not expiring - Manuel just wants to find out what BS is being spread out there so the culprits can be suitably slapped on the wrist - as fair warning that Nichia does take legal action when provoked.

[Brian]

With all due respect... If the pat. expires there goes your main marketing ploy that all others are pat infringement

It's not expiring - Manuel just wants to find out what BS is being spread out there so the culprits can be suitably slapped on the wrist - as fair warning that Nichia does take legal action when provoked.

Yep... exactly like I said

[manuellynch]

I am suprised how many people are not aware of how using a patent infringing product can ultimately affect you, your supplier, or even your end customer

I wonder what would happen in this industry if an end customer was legally pursued for using a patent infringing product?

And my understanding is that some of the Nichia patents expire this summer....BUT... The parts that are knock offs out there infringe recent or current patents

[Erik Sine]

I had someone tell me yesterday that they can extend their patent for two more years after this summer. But what is the infrigement again?

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[YYZ]

The thing to remember is that while one patent may expire, Nichia has a whole lot of them. Nichia and Toyoda go right back to the beginning of Blue and White LEDs and almost all subsequent work is based on their initial research, and even both companies patents are based on the work of the other.

Some of the oldest patents that may expire soon are probably at the point of being useless anyways, since technology and process has changed a great deal. For example - does anyone give a shit about a patent that covers say, a cordless phone powered by 2 rechargeable AA batteries when battery technology has changed so drastically?

[fishing nut]

So if all recent work is based on the original patents and that expires can it be said that a certain percentage of up to date technology is free game?

[YYZ]

So if all recent work is based on the original patents and that expires can it be said that a certain percentage of up to date technology is free game?

If the patent was as generic as "phone with batteries" then maybe. The difference is that the patents have to be much more specific and are often almost identical to a different one that might have only one minor (but critical) difference. The new patents have less to do with the "battery" and more to do with the "process used to make the battery", or "make it last longer", etc... Most LED patents have nothing to do with "make blue chip glow" and have everything to do with really specific things like epitaxial wafers, bonding processes, etc... and these patents will continue to exist.

The patent that is about to expire is the first type of Blue LED, which is the basis for White LEDs. This opens things up to more companies producing patent-free Blue LED chips, but if they use a specific process that was patented later, they violate the later patent. Since the largest number of patents started after 1990, 2010 is the date that they will begin to expire. Remember though, that many of the patents relating to the process or chemical compounds will continue, and these are the ones most critical to making quality, bright LEDs.

[Brian]

So if all recent work is based on the original patents and that expires can it be said that a certain percentage of up to date technology is free game?

If the patent was as generic as "phone with batteries" then maybe. The difference is that the patents have to be much more specific and are often almost identical to a different one that might have only one minor (but critical) difference. The new patents have less to do with the "battery" and more to do with the "process used to make the battery", or "make it last longer", etc... Most LED patents have nothing to do with "make blue chip glow" and have everything to do with really specific things like epitaxial wafers, bonding processes, etc... and these patents will continue to exist.

The patent that is about to expire is the first type of Blue LED, which is the basis for White LEDs. This opens things up to more companies producing patent-free Blue LED chips, but if they use a specific process that was patented later, they violate the later patent. Since the largest number of patents started after 1990, 2010 is the date that they will begin to expire. Remember though, that many of the patents relating to the process or chemical compounds will continue, and these are the ones most critical to making quality, bright LEDs.

OK I get that... but here is the same question for you marko as I posted on another thread, is JT led infringing on a patent?

[YYZ]

OK I get that... but here is the same question for you marko as I posted on another thread, is JT led infringing on a patent?

I don't know. My hunch - based on where they are made and what prices they sell for is "there's a good chance" - but that's not enough to make that accusation. I'm not about to start the legal proceedings to find out, either, but I'm hearing from several different fronts that there may be a shit storm coming for those who think the LED business is about to become a patent free, wild west game.

[Brian]

OK I get that... but here is the same question for you marko as I posted on another thread, is JT led infringing on a patent?

I don't know. My hunch - based on where they are made and what prices they sell for is "there's a good chance" - but that's not enough to make that accusation. I'm not about to start the legal proceedings to find out, either, but I'm hearing from several different fronts that there may be a shit storm coming for those who think the LED business is about to become a patent free, wild west game.

OK thanks, I can read between the lines and I understand you not wanting to make accusations on the topic

[manuellynch]

I do not like speculation and hearsay - keep this simple

Please call Nichia USA in Michigan at (248) 349-9800 and ask them if a company or technology violates their intellectual property.

Also - this is a great book that discusses the whole thing

http://www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Nakamura-Revolution-Lighting-Technology/dp/1591024625/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272407393&sr=8-1

[Erik Sine]

Oh booooo! I like immediate satisfaction (just ask the wife), I don't wanna have to call.

Do I have to push #1 for English?

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[YYZ]

Do I have to push #1 for English?

Nah, most of the staff is from MI or PA. I often feel like I have Betty White on the other end when Carol answers the phone.

Edited April 28, 2010 by YYZ

[manuellynch]

Marko is right - they are the nicest people. I rate them at the top. Polite, respectful, smart.