Signs Of The Times - August 2010 Issue

[Erik Sine]

This is odd.

Is it me, or are the "anything" Neon articles in SOT lately so small that it might as well be located along side the classifieds section or mixed in with the table of contents?

I mean, here is an article that is controversial, "Hype vs. Effectiveness" which to me is the hot topic of the electric sign world and it's only a hair thicker than half a page? "Vintage Tulsa" is less than half a page? Why would that be? This article touched on the very post I made in the Susan Conner Thread (Link)on "Mis-charaterization of neon" in their LinkedIn group when she asked for neon topics and what issues we should hit. She mentioned a Neon Group Article coming out in August, but she didn't mention it could be mistaken for a "want ad". If you didn't lick your finger to keep the pages from sticking you would have missed it for sure. One would even think such an article might even warrant a front cover dedication.

Todd Fuzz's article on LED's is about 3 pages long. Nisa Khan has 2 full pages.

Wade's gratifying SFI acceptance speech and explanation to all of himself becoming the next sign "community organizer" is a full page.

Does Rob Ivers "Sticky Stuff" article REALLY need to be 2 pages, and longer than a controversial topic such as, "Hype vs. Effectiveness"??

Talk about being handed your hat before the door is even opened for you.

I've asked two heads of state within the SOT already about their opinion if Trade Magazines helped play a role in the demise of the CCFL sales & production within the electric sign industry and aided in the "Mis-charaterization" in place of other light sources. I got a half ass answer from one, and still waiting to hear back from the community organizer.

This just goes to show my posts in the SOT LinkedIn Group on neon issues, and here....stand.

[imanut]

Pray tell, why would this continue to surprise anyone? It would be like being surprised at the quality of thieving politicians that we have here in Illinois, or across the country. Surprising? Or closer to home, surprise anyone of the absolute lack of quality in tradesmen in the sign industry anymore? I doubt it -----

Only thing more surprising will be when we start our yearly meeting in Vegas with a toast to the industry! Can't wait --- how many more months?

gn

[Erik Sine]

Pray tell, why would this continue to surprise anyone? It would be like being surprised at the quality of thieving politicians that we have here in Illinois, or across the country. Surprising? Or closer to home, surprise anyone of the absolute lack of quality in tradesmen in the sign industry anymore? I doubt it -----

Only thing more surprising will be when we start our yearly meeting in Vegas with a toast to the industry! Can't wait --- how many more months?

gn

Hmmmm. A toast to the Industry by those outside the industry. Here Here!

[YYZ]

How many articles would you find in the August 2010 Road & Track about carburetors? Even a 1998 edition?

[Erik Sine]

I'm pretty on par with Nisa's article, like most of the work she does. But, I don't agree on the "energy challenges part" I think what IS a challenge when it comes to energy are the "environmentalists", they get in our way and it the result is, you and I pay more out of our pockets and get less in return.

Anyone in Seattle able to check up on this 5th Avenue Theater every few months?

I don't think a wise choice was made in using the s14 style screw in LED lamps. It's very expensive and there have always been issues with these lamps lasting, too bad for the donors to spend so much. Sometimes you just have to stick with what works, incandescent. Also, it's just better to use Neon for neon, and not "look like" neon flex tubes. I can appreciate the Allanson LED,s but for the rest kill a monumental sign such as this especially when it's historic.

Hype vs. Effectiveness - Looks like a crammed article. I feel like I'm reading a trailer rather than the featured movie. What would have been nice to know are the actual product details, which I'm willing to gamble the Mag wouldn't allow publishing of that. The only thing I kind of fringe upon is the lamp hour life, Hg or Neon? Though I'm sure SOME LED's can last 50k hours, but what would they look like? SOME neon can last 100k hours, but what would it look like? It would GREATLY depend on the quality of the processing. It's nice to see the START of an article such as this make it though, is this the first? I'm sure it had some of the magazine people sort of cringing, I also wonder how much got edited and chopped?

[YYZ]

Sign Builder will have an LED retrofit theme to their September issue, I think. Not sure how far they go into the dollars and lumens, but it sounded to me like it would be more than just an obligatory single page write up.

[Erik Sine]

Sign Builder will have an LED retrofit theme to their September issue, I think. Not sure how far they go into the dollars and lumens, but it sounded to me like it would be more than just an obligatory single page write up.

NOW that is interesting in more ways than you know. LOL

[Brian]

How many articles would you find in the August 2010 Road & Track about carburetors? Even a 1998 edition?

Oh please you know damn good and well eric is right on this subject. A question for you, How many articles about whales would you find in "Fishing Digest"? NONE! does that mean whales are extinct?

[YYZ]

A question for you, How many articles about whales would you find in "Fishing Digest"? NONE! does that mean whales are extinct?

That's not a valid comparison at all. Are fish the next generation of whales? No. Is fuel injection the next generation of feeding fuel to an engine? Yes.

Also, I never said neon would completely disappear either. They would have their specialty uses like carburetors still do.

How about...

How many dot matrix printers would you find in a printer catalog?

How many articles on wooden hockey sticks vs composites?

How many cloth diapers vs disposables?

It's not that dot matrix printers, wooden hockey sticks or cloth diapers would disappear completely - far from it - but they would not be the every day, widely used standard products within their industries or categories.

Neon will always be around, but people better get used to the idea of it being a specialty product and not a staple.

Edited July 28, 2010 by YYZ

[saneon]

I'm going to sleep better tonight knowing that Marko has decreed that neon shall live .

The only thing wrong with your comparison of neon to dot matrix printers and cloth diapers is that neon is still the superior choice for many applications over the new tech but you won't get that info from these advertising rags because it doesn't pay the bills.

The days of drafting unique and original ideas seem to be gone along with the journeyman craftsmen that had the skill set to make it happen. The industry is now flooded with sign hacks that have the " we'll make your sign in 48 hours or less or its free" motto. Throw together another cookie cutter design, slap some glorified rope lights in it and call it a sign. "HERE'S YOUR SIGN"

[Brian]

I'm going to sleep better tonight knowing that Marko has decreed that neon shall live .

The only thing wrong with your comparison of neon to dot matrix printers and cloth diapers is that neon is still the superior choice for many applications over the new tech but you won't get that info from these advertising rags because it doesn't pay the bills.

The days of drafting unique and original ideas seem to be gone along with the journeyman craftsmen that had the skill set to make it happen. The industry is now flooded with sign hacks that have the " we'll make your sign in 48 hours or less or its free" motto. Throw together another cookie cutter design, slap some glorified rope lights in it and call it a sign. "HERE'S YOUR SIGN"

Bravo!!!!!!

[YYZ]

You can make all the snide wisecracks you want, it doesn't change the direction things are going.

Whether it's for better or for worse is up for debate (and clearly you're debating this), but the comments sound an awful lot like the ones made by sign painters when vinyl cutters started coming out.

You may not believe this, but I've actually been involved in some neon sales recently and have recommended it for certain projects. I don't thump LEDs like some of you guys thump neon. There are applications for all light sources, I just happen to be closely involved in LEDs since we develop all kinds of products that neon could never be involved with. We do more custom and OEM manufacturing than anything else, as LEDs have a whole lot more applications than just signs - and it's only going to grow as brightness and reliability improve and costs go down.

Ignore it / bash it / alienate if you like, but it's your loss.

[Brian]

You can make all the snide wisecracks you want, it doesn't change the direction things are going.

Whether it's for better or for worse is up for debate (and clearly you're debating this), but the comments sound an awful lot like the ones made by sign painters when vinyl cutters started coming out.

You may not believe this, but I've actually been involved in some neon sales recently and have recommended it for certain projects. I don't thump LEDs like some of you guys thump neon. There are applications for all light sources, I just happen to be closely involved in LEDs since we develop all kinds of products that neon could never be involved with. We do more custom and OEM manufacturing than anything else, as LEDs have a whole lot more applications than just signs - and it's only going to grow as brightness and reliability improve and costs go down.

Ignore it / bash it / alienate if you like, but it's your loss.

[Brian]

I'm pretty on par with Nisa's article, like most of the work she does. But, I don't agree on the "energy challenges part" I think what IS a challenge when it comes to energy are the "environmentalists", they get in our way and it the result is, you and I pay more out of our pockets and get less in return.

Anyone in Seattle able to check up on this 5th Avenue Theater every few months?

I don't think a wise choice was made in using the s14 style screw in LED lamps. It's very expensive and there have always been issues with these lamps lasting, too bad for the donors to spend so much. Sometimes you just have to stick with what works, incandescent. Also, it's just better to use Neon for neon, and not "look like" neon flex tubes. I can appreciate the Allanson LED,s but for the rest kill a monumental sign such as this especially when it's historic.

Hype vs. Effectiveness - Looks like a crammed article. I feel like I'm reading a trailer rather than the featured movie. What would have been nice to know are the actual product details, which I'm willing to gamble the Mag wouldn't allow publishing of that. The only thing I kind of fringe upon is the lamp hour life, Hg or Neon? Though I'm sure SOME LED's can last 50k hours, but what would they look like? SOME neon can last 100k hours, but what would it look like? It would GREATLY depend on the quality of the processing. It's nice to see the START of an article such as this make it though, is this the first? I'm sure it had some of the magazine people sort of cringing, I also wonder how much got edited and chopped?

I loved the part about the 50% FAILURE on the screw in LED lamps!!! WTF so they just got more and used them

[saneon]

My point is it seems that everytime Eric draws attention to the obvious bias slant of the trade mags you are there to chime in about what a dinosaur ccfl's are and LED's are the savior of the sign industry and our planet . I don't discount the viability of LED's for some applications just don't make it seem as though neon and cathode manufacturers should just roll over and die because the SOT thinks we should . You seem to think that neon should be limited in use to specialty art peices or some retro makeovers and I think that is bs.

Im not trying to be an ass I am just protecting the integrity of my trade . I have over 20 years of experience in this industry and I know for a fact that I can produce lamps that will outlast and out perform any LED manufacturers product.

[Ken's Signs-Belinda]

Sounds to me like someone is taking anothers opinion very personal. When in reality he is only trying to educate everyone who reads this board.

[manuellynch]

And when is the last time a VHS tape and Betamax tape was put into your machine to watch a movie??

Times change, things move forward - but we are absolute fools not to remember the past and to be reminded of its beauty, what it taught us, what we should learn from it, and how we should move forward.

Neon will not die - they should write more about it - in fact...much more. Sign industry is an artform - dont forget to show off the artists!!!

CCFL - well I think the technology just kicks ass - but I may be way too biased.

And LED - they are great for some things - not all. I didnt through away all my vinyl albums until I had both a tape back up of all of it and a Audio CD of it - I backed it up on two different mediums and was started on digital to computer before I even thought about moving on.

BUT - lets not forget - magazines make money on advertisements and on the fact that we are bickering about what they didnt write - do you know how many people are now going to look at the magazine??? They did exactly what you wanted!!!

If you dont like it... dont give it more attention!!! I agree with Erik - focus on what you want to see more of in publications - we are the readers who are looking at the advertisements!!!

[Erik Sine]

Everyone has an opinion here it's the basis and purpose of the site, hear as many ideas and thoughts as you can and come to your own decision.

I do have to say and without the need to come to Marko's (YYZ) defense, (he's a big boy who can handle himself just fine).

Marko is one of the few LED manufacturers who will tell you himself that LEDs don't solve, and they shouldn't be pushed to fit into everything. He also has experience and history of being on the custom sign manufacturing end himself which is rare since most people in the component manufacturing come from some other fields, so reality is, he truly knows his stuff and won't BS you.

If it wasn't for Marko coming to this site early on it would be a real lopsided site swinging on neon "only", which is not good for the Sign Industry or trade. I also owe a lot of my LED education to him, I think he really opened my eyes past the early bias I had of only hearing the neon side of things. Marko has balanced me personally and the SS, I love to hear his opinion (like everyone else who has one) even though it may contradict mine. He keeps me to stay open to other ideas outside my own, and he helps to keep this site honest.

[LiteGirl]

We just got our issue in yesterday. Once again good call Erik!

[nisakhan]

I'm pretty on par with Nisa's article, like most of the work she does. But, I don't agree on the "energy challenges part" I think what IS a challenge when it comes to energy are the "environmentalists", they get in our way and it the result is, you and I pay more out of our pockets and get less in return.

Anyone in Seattle able to check up on this 5th Avenue Theater every few months?

I don't think a wise choice was made in using the s14 style screw in LED lamps. It's very expensive and there have always been issues with these lamps lasting, too bad for the donors to spend so much. Sometimes you just have to stick with what works, incandescent. Also, it's just better to use Neon for neon, and not "look like" neon flex tubes. I can appreciate the Allanson LED,s but for the rest kill a monumental sign such as this especially when it's historic.

Hype vs. Effectiveness - Looks like a crammed article. I feel like I'm reading a trailer rather than the featured movie. What would have been nice to know are the actual product details, which I'm willing to gamble the Mag wouldn't allow publishing of that. The only thing I kind of fringe upon is the lamp hour life, Hg or Neon? Though I'm sure SOME LED's can last 50k hours, but what would they look like? SOME neon can last 100k hours, but what would it look like? It would GREATLY depend on the quality of the processing. It's nice to see the START of an article such as this make it though, is this the first? I'm sure it had some of the magazine people sort of cringing, I also wonder how much got edited and chopped?

----------------------------

Hi Erik,

Thanks for your comment. While I didn't quite understand your comment on the issue with "environmentalists", my article didn't address challenges on environmental issues. The columns need to be short or contained and it doesn't make sense to address all challenges, pros and con's of LEDs vs. incumbent light sources - the linear fluorescent lights in this case. The theme of the article is addressing the energy savings issue. I chose this issue because there are some misunderstandings in the lighting industry and too much money may be getting wasted on the wrong things.

I have my experience, thoughts, and information on environmental issues of LEDs and other Hg-based sources. The environmental issues of LEDs are not as straightforward and benign as some might think. There are many things to consider and hopefully over time, the real issues will be resolved scientifically, rather than emotionally and politically with misinformation or lack of information.

Cheers!

Nisa

[Erik Sine]

I'm pretty on par with Nisa's article, like most of the work she does. But, I don't agree on the "energy challenges part" I think what IS a challenge when it comes to energy are the "environmentalists", they get in our way and it the result is, you and I pay more out of our pockets and get less in return.

Anyone in Seattle able to check up on this 5th Avenue Theater every few months?

I don't think a wise choice was made in using the s14 style screw in LED lamps. It's very expensive and there have always been issues with these lamps lasting, too bad for the donors to spend so much. Sometimes you just have to stick with what works, incandescent. Also, it's just better to use Neon for neon, and not "look like" neon flex tubes. I can appreciate the Allanson LED,s but for the rest kill a monumental sign such as this especially when it's historic.

Hype vs. Effectiveness - Looks like a crammed article. I feel like I'm reading a trailer rather than the featured movie. What would have been nice to know are the actual product details, which I'm willing to gamble the Mag wouldn't allow publishing of that. The only thing I kind of fringe upon is the lamp hour life, Hg or Neon? Though I'm sure SOME LED's can last 50k hours, but what would they look like? SOME neon can last 100k hours, but what would it look like? It would GREATLY depend on the quality of the processing. It's nice to see the START of an article such as this make it though, is this the first? I'm sure it had some of the magazine people sort of cringing, I also wonder how much got edited and chopped?

----------------------------

Hi Erik,

Thanks for your comment. While I didn't quite understand your comment on the issue with "environmentalists", my article didn't address challenges on environmental issues. The columns need to be short or contained and it doesn't make sense to address all challenges, pros and con's of LEDs vs. incumbent light sources - the linear fluorescent lights in this case. The theme of the article is addressing the energy savings issue. I chose this issue because there are some misunderstandings in the lighting industry and too much money may be getting wasted on the wrong things.

I have my experience, thoughts, and information on environmental issues of LEDs and other Hg-based sources. The environmental issues of LEDs are not as straightforward and benign as some might think. There are many things to consider and hopefully over time, the real issues will be resolved scientifically, rather than emotionally and politically with misinformation or lack of information.

Cheers!

Nisa

I think I misread your intention in the article on the "energy Challenge" part when I re-read it.

I wish more/all these articles I see in Trade Magazines could be more from a scientific viewpoint or nuts and bolts, unbiased with marketing emotion & misinformation taken out. I'm all for that, (That way people wouldn't see me posting topics like this every month)but I know the people with the wallet have to be satisfied and some products can't be sold on their own merit but sold on fear instead.

*******

Edited August 16, 2010 by Westcoast Sign Guy
Foot in mouth comment