LED Webinar

[Erik Sine]

Way ahead of you on this. Building a raceway that houses 6, 8' HO t12 lamps on both mag and SST ballast to show what tha actual energy consumption is, the same fof neon and LED. Be out shortly in the tutorial section.

Brian - you're completely reading into things what you want to.

Power factor is important not just for LEDs, but for neon and fluorescent as well and has nothing to do with spin.

If a neon tranny is 90% PF and LED power supply only 70%, the neon would come out ahead - it works both ways. What I was saying is that PF of the power supply or tranny is something that has to be factored into any comparison if it's going to be worth going over at all.

In fact, it might be a good idea for a tutorial. Do a theoretical comparison of the following:

Assuming a 3' x 8' light box sign:

Fluorescent on standard PF

Fluorescent on high PF

Neon on standard PF

Neon on high PF

LED on non PFC

LED on PFC

And Brian - just because you pay for Watts used, that doesn't mean it's the true cost of the power being generated. The discussion is about energy savings, not electric bill savings. You want to save energy - with any lighting technology - PF is a very important part of the discussion.

[TelfordDorr]

sure..your idea of involving power factors in this is ridiculous I don't know how it works up there put here we pay on metered usage.

Yes, that is true, but consider:

- ultimately, utility customers pay for everything - including power losses due to lousy PF.

- lousy PF consumes line capacity, resulting in less power being available, and higher fuel consumption for generating that power.

- lousy PF requires compensation somewhere on the line. Guess who ultimately pays for this equipment?

- etc.

So yeah, you don't get billed for all those VARS (volt-amps, reactive) - at least directly. But you do pay for them. (And you pay for your neighbor's losses too, as he doesn't worry about them because he's not directly billed for them either.)

Edited September 14, 2010 by TelfordDorr

[Brian]

OK...for the ump-teenth time I understand about power factor and energy savings. The webinar is a comparison between neon and LED energy cost and ROI NOT between various trannys and power supplies with various power factors. So can we please stay on track here and discuss if that would be something that would interest us? I really don't understand the difficulty in realizing that the study would include the highest available PF tarnny/power supply available for each and then run the comparison.

[manuellynch]

Energy savings for LEDs also needs to consider what energy is being consumed when one makes them in a semiconductor fab factory. I can put this on the back burner a little bit for now and mainly focus on the above issue.

Nisa

Nisa,

I agree with you on this point. Having come from the semiconductor world myself and knowing the intense amount of energy used to: 1) keep a clean room clean, 2) energy for evaporation processes, annealing, etc is quite high, 3) the amount of power to make a Silicon carbide wafer, etc., 4) amount of energy used to pick and place components on PCB boards and the amount of energy for reflow.

So I do agree with you on this versus neon.

There was a top notch lighting designer in Seattle that I met once that had actually paid someone to do a report on this exact issue. It is crazy the amount of frequent flyer miles an LED system will get in the process of fabrication.

So Nisa - I agree with your statement and am very interested in hearing what you have put together. I am very actively conscious in reducing carbon footprint on all fronts and is partly why we produce product in New Zealand for this market and soon in the USA for the USA market. Remember that we were living in the shadow of the MGM City Center in Las Vegas when it was being built for years and this concept of being a Platinum LEED facility got drilled in our head. As a side note I always thought it was rather crappy that most of the glass used in MGM City Center came from China...didnt make sense - could have been done in the USA.

Thank you Nisa for adding that aspect.

I met with a man here in New Zealand the other day who was in the business of pressurized gases and it seemed after a long discussion that there are ways neon makes more sense.

But alas - we sell LED systems....so we do our best.

Looking forward to the educational webinar - I would like to hear what you have discovered.

Marko,

You are right - the goal is to reduce overall power - power factor is important but it is mainly important to the "lines" companies or the ones who deliver power and not necessarily the ones "generating" power. In some places around the world the two groups are different.

Brian

Happy Birthday - and when the environmentalist give you crap for your horse taking a crap on the side of the road - well then just have a bag of seeds and say you are planting a tree!!!

Have a good day.

[Brian]

Energy savings for LEDs also needs to consider what energy is being consumed when one makes them in a semiconductor fab factory. I can put this on the back burner a little bit for now and mainly focus on the above issue.

Nisa

Nisa,

I agree with you on this point. Having come from the semiconductor world myself and knowing the intense amount of energy used to: 1) keep a clean room clean, 2) energy for evaporation processes, annealing, etc is quite high, 3) the amount of power to make a Silicon carbide wafer, etc., 4) amount of energy used to pick and place components on PCB boards and the amount of energy for reflow.

So I do agree with you on this versus neon.

There was a top notch lighting designer in Seattle that I met once that had actually paid someone to do a report on this exact issue. It is crazy the amount of frequent flyer miles an LED system will get in the process of fabrication.

So Nisa - I agree with your statement and am very interested in hearing what you have put together. I am very actively conscious in reducing carbon footprint on all fronts and is partly why we produce product in New Zealand for this market and soon in the USA for the USA market. Remember that we were living in the shadow of the MGM City Center in Las Vegas when it was being built for years and this concept of being a Platinum LEED facility got drilled in our head. As a side note I always thought it was rather crappy that most of the glass used in MGM City Center came from China...didnt make sense - could have been done in the USA.

Thank you Nisa for adding that aspect.

I met with a man here in New Zealand the other day who was in the business of pressurized gases and it seemed after a long discussion that there are ways neon makes more sense.

But alas - we sell LED systems....so we do our best.

Looking forward to the educational webinar - I would like to hear what you have discovered.

Marko,

You are right - the goal is to reduce overall power - power factor is important but it is mainly important to the "lines" companies or the ones who deliver power and not necessarily the ones "generating" power. In some places around the world the two groups are different.

Brian

Happy Birthday - and when the environmentalist give you crap for your horse taking a crap on the side of the road - well then just have a bag of seeds and say you are planting a tree!!!

Have a good day.

Thanks! Manuel

Regardless if we agree or not everyone has made some valid and interesting points on this subject and I am really excited to see the outcome

I appreciate the mental jousting with every body and still being friends!!!!

[Brian]

Any news on this? if and when it is going to happen