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3M - OUR TAX DOLLARS!!!!


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MY TAX DOLLARS ARE GOING WHERE??!?!?!

3M is taking some lessons from GE and others on self getting themselves specified into government projects funded by us the American people. How nice of 3M though, to fund one of the studies used to create this new "change"

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Changes in road sign reflectivity will affect highway departments

The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) has raised the minimum reflectivity of road signs to increase sign visibility, a mandate that will take effect in January 2012. FHWA standards require state and local agencies to assess their road signs and develop a replacement plan for non-compliant signs before the mandate deadline. During 2011, local and state governments will be working to devise plans to upgrade road signs that meet and exceed the minimum levels of retroreflectivity to improve road safety.

St. Paul, Minn.-based 3M Traffic Safety Systems has been implementing programs to aid local and state governments as they work to meet the FHWA's standards. Govpro.com asked David Kniffin, marketing operations manager of roadway maintenance service at the 3M unit for his views. Kniffin is past chair of the American Traffic Safety Services Association's Sign Committee.

Govpro.com: Does 3M have any advice for state and local government officials as they work to replace signs to meet new FHWA reflectivity requirements?

David Kniffin: Our advice to agencies that have yet to begin the process of implementing a compliance program is to start now. Even relatively small jurisdictions can have thousands, or even tens of thousands, of signs. It takes time and resources to assess signs and develop a management process — so the sooner an agency knows what they're dealing with, the more time they have to structure a replacement plan and budget over several years.

A second piece of advice is to use signs made with higher grades of sheeting material, such as Type III or higher. Higher grades of sheeting may cost a little more upfront, but will save agencies money in the long term because the signs will exceed minimum retroreflectivity levels for a longer period of time. From a lifecycle perspective, the bulk of sign replacement cost goes into sign construction and installation. The sheeting is only a small piece of the total cost.

Govpro.com: Are there any important resources local and state government administrators can use as they begin to replace signs in their communities?

DK: One of the most comprehensive resources we've seen is a Sign Retroreflectivity Toolkit that is available online from the FHWA. It contains information and advice about the new traffic sign retroreflectivity requirements, steps to implementation (with an interactive budgeting tool), funding, technical and educational resources, sample forms and letters, and more.

Govpro.com: How is 3M assisting agencies with compliance?

DK: We aid agencies in several ways. First, 3M offers high-performance prismatic reflective sheeting that (for most traffic sign applications) is warranted to exceed minimum retroreflectivity requirements for 10 to 12 years. Second, 3M has introduced a secure, web-based Sign Management System that is reliable, easy to use, cost effective and adaptive to agency needs. In addition, 3M Roadway Maintenance Services can act as an extension of agency staff to get a sign management program off the ground, assisting with everything from inventory and assessment to fabrication and replacement of traffic signs. Agencies should contact their 3M representative for more information and assistance, or visit the Traffic Safety Systems site.

Now This.

READ THIS: Local Governments Told to Buy New Street Signs

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It's just one reason the Federal Highway Administration is ordering all local governments -- from the tiniest towns to the largest cities -- to go out and buy new street signs that federal bureaucrats say are easier to read.

The rules are part of a tangle of regulations included in the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices.

The 800-plus page book tells local governments they:

-- Should increase the size of the letters on street signs from the current 4 inches to 6 inches on all roads with speed limits over 25 miles per hour. The target date for this to be completed is January 2012.

-- Install signs with new reflective letters more visible at night by January 2018.

-- And whenever street name signs are changed for any reason, they can no longer be in ALL CAPS.

In Milwaukee this will cost the cash-strapped city nearly $2 million -- double the city's entire annual for traffic control.

In Dinwiddie County, Virginia -- with lots of roads but not many people -- the cost comes to about $10 for every man, woman and child.

"The money is better spent on education, or the sheriff's department or on public safety than something like that," said Harrison Moody, chairman of the Dinwiddie Board of Supervisors.

Many local residents in Dinwiddie say their current street signs work just fine, and they see no reason to change them.

"There are a lot of people out there that are hungry," said Dinwiddie resident Thomas Davis. "Why spend [money] on street signs when everybody can read a street sign or, if you don't know where you're going, get a GPS."

The Federal Highway Administration says it's concerned about safety. The new regulations, which were written under the Bush Administration, are designed to make sure that signs are easier to read for an aging population.

"If you can't read it, you can't see it or you can't comprehend it, it could be a distraction to you," said Federal Highway Administrator Victor Mendez. "You could be in an accident, negative consequences could occur."

Mendez says he understands, however, the financial burden these guidelines place on local governments. As a result, he told ABC News, the Federal Highway Administration will announce on Monday a new period of public comment on the new rules, a step that could lead to easing on the guidelines.

Whether or not requiring cities and towns to replace all their street signs improves safety, it would undoubtedly be a windfall for the multi-billion-dollar-a-year sign industry.

The American Traffic Safety Services Association -- which represents companies that make signs and the reflective material used on them -- lobbied hard for the new rules. And at least one key study used to justify the changes was funded by the 3M Corporation, one of the few companies that make the reflective material now required on street signs.

MORE NEWS LINKS

http://www.foxcharlotte.com/news/nc-news/Feds-Say-Bigger-Is-Better-111018199.html

http://www.ktnv.com/story/13590861/new-requirements-for-street-signs-could-cost-southern-nevada-millions

Straight from the 3M site

http://solutions9.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Traffic_Safety/TSS/News_Events/Industry_Issues/

It's so nice to be able to write yourself in and sue others for infringing of reflectivity that might create competition for these tax dollar programs

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Well, I'm surprised no comments yet. Guess 3M has everyone scared since they compete directly with sign companies.

I'll just throw out more nutz and bolts topics like grounding, and how great PLASCO Trim Cap is for making beer :wind45:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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It’s been hard to spend time at the site here with the Christmas season in full effect but getting back to this.

Today I just read Jeff Wootens UpFront “Street Sign Changes”.

I think he pretty much for the most part hit it on the head. Who’s going to pay for all this? Should YOU and I?

Since this came out and is starting to become more front page news, not so much about another government program, but more about 3M’s involvement which of course no one is talking about. Doesn't 3M spend a lot of money in advertising?

In contrasting view of SBI and myself, ISA is saying “BIGGER, is better” http://www.signs.org/IndustryNews/BiggerLettersAreBetter.aspx. ISA is all for this program, just ask David Hickey. I was wondering if they were going to chime in about this. 3M wasn’t in their convention with their big booth in 09 in Vegas from my recollection, looking at the exhibit list for 2011’ 3M seems to be there, not sure if they are spending huge this coming year or not. Since they are a client of ISA, would ever hear them speak different about this street sign change? I for one doubt it.

I’ll be curious to see how this plays out in other areas of our trade. Let’s see if anyone even ties 3M to the FHWA.

I only foresee the “Attaboy!” attitude

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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This really is very, very old news.

If you have been noticing in California, freeway exit signs are starting to be replaced with exit numbers... something that was supposed to be implemented years ago.

On funding for street signs... when I was designing them, the requirements for being compliant had to deal with signs being replaced using Department of Transportation funding or if they are located on federal highways. The language states that street signs must comply, but they have known this for years. It's just now that cities are pinched for cash are they now complaining and missed out on funds that were available at one time. Cities do have to pay for portion of the signs as a regular maintenance, but major projects are partially paid for by State Funds that are originally from the Federal Transportation funds as long as they comply with the MUTCD requirements.

A lot of cities were going hog wild on city wayfinding projects that include street signs, monuments, sculptures, gateway entries... some are still in progress of design, fabrication and installation, those are funded by many organizations, including State Transportation funds and city taxes.

As far as the 3M connection, again, old news, film companies can make films that are ASTM compliant... and you would think there would be an incentive, since all these signs need to be made. Most regulations are funded or pushed by corporations... they invest time, materials, and information for the payoff, other companies can benefit from them, but they have a lot of catching up to do as 3M has spent quite a bit on researching reflective film... I'm not saying it's right, but all the sign legislation I have seen happen, usually has some company name(s) behind it.

If you google "city wayfinding" I'm sure you can find city council meetings where design companies are getting paid 20-100k for designing these sign systems, with projects in the 250-750k range. Not every designer or sign shop can do this work... you should look at a project like a new hospital or an airport. Signs up the wazoo because of State and federal requirements... kinda like the building code we design and build signs to. Almost every sign has some code or standard that adds to the cost. The MUTCD Standards is just another 800 page book that is next to 6+ other 200-800 page books I have to design to....

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That's the problem, companies through lobbyists and useful idiots on politicians pushing for regulation, and pushing or selling of specified products are involved,. 3M with this, GE in lighting and the now dead in the water "Cap & Trade", this IS just another in the stack for sure.

Our cities don't know how to spend money and they spend a RIDICULOUS amount in wayfinding design, I can see plenty of ways better money should be spent.

The reason why this story is getting more attention outside our industry is because money is pinched and it's it's about time these projects get put under a microscope, it's unfortunate it takes hard times for investigation. Is this not part of the reason why we are here in our situation in the first place?

When we have a surplus of cash to spend, by all means let's pretty a area up, but not when our schools and other important areas are suffering. Yes, schools is another whole can or worms in itself that doesn't know how to spend money.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Our cities don't know how to spend money and they spend a RIDICULOUS amount in wayfinding design, I can see plenty of ways better money should be spent.

Hmmm, being that I have been involved with this type of work, the added amounts are usually more client/design by committee than pricing high by the design firm and the submittal process. Like I said, not everyone can design this stuff, if you as a sign shop try to bid on designing a wayfinding system, you might get a quick lesson in the city/state and federal government design process... a flawed system

The average person will not invest in regulation... it takes to much time and money, its not worth it. The system is flawed.

The money might be better spent elsewhere, but ask 1000 people, and sure you will get 1000 opinions on how it should be spent, that is why the vote to put people in these jobs so they can decide for us... probably another flawed system? I don't think so, but cities are probably thinking they are in the business of promoting the city, something usually suffers if the leaders are short-sighted. I think wayfinding and placemaking has some worth, but you are correct, wait till there is a pile of cash before making things pretty, some ongoing projects were probably designed before the recession.

The reason why this story is getting attention is the media needs a punch line... it's a nine year old story. Now that comments are being heard again, you have a chance to say something. Not sure how much that will help, besides 3M, the sign industry is also the one benefiting from all this sign work. Some people believe this work can stimulate the economy by keeping or creating jobs....

Having 4 kids in the school system, I have learned that teachers over here get paid quite a bit more than sign guys, that have better benefits than sign people, and it's nearly impossible to lose your job, even if you are a crappy teacher... another flawed system.

Most of my work deals with rules and regulation, take the ADA for instance... it caters to an extremely small minority that adds millions to the cost of city, state and federal buildings, and we sign people make money on it... another flaw.

It goes on and on and on and on... too much for me to worry about, just have to charge enough so I can keep up with it. I'm still trying to help my wife with her quest to get rapist more prison time... don't get me started on that

Edited by Kingpin Creative
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This 3M business and the Street signs going all capital letters isn't as bad as the others (other than taking more money from the people)coming down the pipeline where not only are they spending tax payer money but they are also robbing us of our freedoms and individual liberties by setting legislation which will cost us money (out of pocket)and dictate to us what we can and can't buy, and I'm talking about energy and lighting. They are also setting the tone and trying to dictate to a free market what "demand" is. This is chasing away businesses in CA, and they still continue to wonder why? There's no incentive to open up shop in Cali, who would want to with all the regulation kicked down to us by all the environmentalists wackos telling us we can't drill, we can't build another power plant, and our habits and the products we buy is destroying the planet. Instead, their counting carbons (which I still have never understood)and making us buy goods & services for our own protection that have no merit or factual basis.

But that's the purpose of this site, get all the info out an throw it on the table for everyone to look at for themselves, then make it count when you vote.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience Rick with being smack in the middle of this thread with your own experience, I feel you on the latter, have experience in that dept myself, is frustrating.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I don't know about all this drilling and power plant stuff since I'm only in the sign business... but I do have problems when options for illumination are taken away or that people buy into one product being better over another because they "seem" to be "green-er" Bull poop, it's because it's easier to make. I have clients that want me to only call out LED... nothing else... I always ask why, they say it's easier.

In my position, more and more it's sign shops that are the problem... I design all kinds of signs, but finding competent sign shops who can do neon, pour footings with well troweled bases, do stonework, precast concrete and at the same time use the correct typeface, use correct metals for the area conditions. It's easier for me to find a old school sign painter, than it is to find a sign shop who can do real concrete and masonry. It's getting harder to find shops that can read a blueprint. Some of these sign jobs, 80-90% is subcontracted out. A trained monkey can slap LED in a sign can, and sometimes that is all I need, but sign shops are the ones preferring making more money taping strings of LED than paying someone to bend tube. I get this all the time.

On the idea of scaring sign shops away.. i don't see it... being the 8th largest economy in the world means there are opportunities. My job (and quite a few sign peoples jobs) is to make things pretty and be consultants on the code stuff... someone has to design and build the stuff, and out of state companies are probably not equipped to deal with the subtle nuances of getting a sign built here. It can scare some people, and create opportunities for others.

Going back to the 3M thing/MUTCD. when I was first getting involved with retrofits on freeway signage, these were being externally illuminated at the time... wasting money on energy and maintenance. They don't have to be externally illuminated now and I am surprised when I drive by one. And they illuminate more than the externally illuminated signs ever did. On the street sign issue, I think I read a study where there is a 16% increase in legibility over the previous standard.... not enough to order a retrofit of all street signage by a certain date. Looking over the latest MUTCD, I seen no consequences to states or cities who can not retro fit new signage, but when signs are being replaced, why not conform to that new standard, it's no big deal. I live in a rural area of California, they had retrofitted most of the stop signs to retro reflective. I think there is a good argument for safety on that issue.

Edited by Kingpin Creative
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No doubt it is easier and less hassle, but a lot of times it can be used for the wrong reasons. In my area all the once neon shops have their plants collecting dust, they all use LEDs now, because it's easier and quicker to pump a job out. These guys are the older ones who are tired of being in business, in reality they should have retired long ago, but the economy sucks the cost of living these days in cali make it impossible sometimes to retire. It's a shame, but there it is. It it hard to find a full pledged sign shop these days who don't subcontract anything and have a full well knowledgeable staff, but again hell, regulation and the costs of doing business to keep them in staff(Workers Comp Thread) can make it more profitable to just sub out. Hell, there is no way I can beat my neon guy so I just sub it out to him, hands down I loose he wins, I can't beat his skills or knowledge. LEDs are good and have their pros just like the other light sources but yes a lot think they are the thing to use for all phases because it's lazyness instead of taking pride in your work

I'm pessimistic right now because of the economy and regs here, hate to be that way but if I was a big business I would'nt be opening up in Cali anytime soon tell there is incentive to do so. Title 22, 24, Workers comp, crazy environmental zoning laws, HAZMAT, :treehugger: , CAL-OSHA, list goes on with all those added costs. Think I'd rather be in conduction in another state. I have to go through 8 to 9 counters just to pull a sign permit for San Diego County, took me 2.5 days last time I did so, you know how much I had to bill my client?

I couldn't even add a condo to the back of my grandparents house on their huge lot to supplement their income and help pay for the medical bills because this condo should have been built 15+, the new regulations and title make it impossible and ROI impossible.

I love making ADA signs, frankly I make more off them than the electric stuff, but I find them boring and electric stuff more entertaining beacuse I get to deal with electricity :shocked:, but I'll be the first to say most of it and the purpose of majority is BS, additional restroom door plaques? CA grade II braille??? Required sizing and ridiculous structural accessibility of buildings, even when you take over an existing?

Drives ME NUTZ :crazy::pillepalle::wallbash:

K, going to go fab some channel letters and listen to Christmas music, I said "Christmas!", not Holiday Music :christmaswindow:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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