Metal Halide Questions

[manuellynch]

What is the most common type of Metal Halide 400 Watt ballast/transformer that you use?

Do you have any recommendations positive or negative on particular ones?

[Brian]

What is the most common type of Metal Halide 400 Watt ballast/transformer that you use?

Do you have any recommendations positive or negative on particular ones?

advance or howard

[victorysignny]

We like Universal ballast and salvania lamps. We have used all the name brands in the past and they all seem to work well.

[manuellynch]

are most ballasts magnetic or electronic ballasts these days?

In failures is it always the bulb or do the transformers/ballasts fail?

And do you use 400 Watt more than 250 Watt?

[victorysignny]

are most ballasts magnetic or electronic ballasts these days?

In failures is it always the bulb or do the transformers/ballasts fail?

And do you use 400 Watt more than 250 Watt?

Magnetic.

I would say 70/30 Lamps fail at a higher rate then ballast .

Depending on the application most pole lights are 400. Most under canopy lights are 250. Security wall packs are 250 and 175.

Manuel If your leaning towards an led alternative to MH we are very interested. Lsi and bata have good products but they only sell to lighting supply houses cutting us out of the equation. If we want to sell them we have to mark up retail prices.

[manuellynch]

Manuel If your leaning towards an led alternative to MH we are very interested. Lsi and bata have good products but they only sell to lighting supply houses cutting us out of the equation. If we want to sell them we have to mark up retail prices.

ISA is coming isnt it? Haha. We developed some rather clever solutions recently and just wanted to know a bit more about billboard lighting and "security" style lights... parking lots as well.

Seems like sometimes people miss that magnetic ballast work and rarely fail...it is the bulbs that fail. Electronic ballasts when used are "more efficient" but fail more often - and cost a lot more. So if you just reread what I wrote you can get an idea or where we are going.

I know the folks at LSI very very well - I like them and I know all of the key players pretty well.

Seems like someone should make a solution that can retrofit a metal hallide lamp in less than 1 minute and cost under $200....1/3rd the power...key is color rendering for billboards - most LED solutions out there are horrible!!!

[tdexxx]

Probably less than 10% of the HID lighting repairs I do are ballast replacements, the rest are lamp replacements. 400 and 1000 watt metal halide ballasts running at 208 or 277 volts lamps are most common in parking lots and 100 and 175 watt ballasts running at 120 or 277 volts often are used in hotel/restaurant canopies. When ballasts need replacement, most usually it is the capacitor which has failed; the core&coil part of the ballast very seldom burns out in my experience, even though it is sealed in a small unventilated metal enclosure along with a 400 or 1000 watt bulb. I'd think a big challenge to the development of a 400 or 1000 watt ballast replacement will be dealing with that heat. I don't know if it's possible to make, but a self-ballasted HID bulb, (similar to the self-ballasted CFL), for the canopy lights would be nice. Both installation and service would be lots easier with a self-ballasted lamp.

[tdexxx]

Oops, I don't need to say it twice.

Edited December 13, 2010 by tdexxx

[Sporse]

Lamps and Capacitors fail at a much higher rate than ballasts, I always test the capacitor for proper operation before anything else, if the capacitor is going bad a lamp will sometimes intially light and may hold for up to an hour before shuting down. Its too easy not to assure the capacitor is OK. This is our breakdown for the last year of HID service calls, 67% Lamps, 26% Capacitors, 7% Ballasts. We have only had 1 callback within 120 days form intial service.

Hope it helps....

[manuellynch]

Lamps and Capacitors fail at a much higher rate than ballasts, I always test the capacitor for proper operation before anything else, if the capacitor is going bad a lamp will sometimes intially light and may hold for up to an hour before shuting down. Its too easy not to assure the capacitor is OK. This is our breakdown for the last year of HID service calls, 67% Lamps, 26% Capacitors, 7% Ballasts. We have only had 1 callback within 120 days form intial service.

Hope it helps....

In your experience are the capacitors failing due to temperature or due to swings in primary voltage inputs ..i.e. ground fault issues, lightning strikes, etc?

And do you notice a difference on the type of capacitor you use? Coming from the military electronics world we wonder why higher grade capacitors are not used on billboard signage.

Thanks for input.

[manuellynch]

So another quick question...

on some of these fixtures it appears that the igniters are often replaced as well - would it be common to remove or disconnect the wiring from the igniter?

Do newer systems integrate the inductor, capacitor, and igniter into one "transformer" or are the three components usually separate?

[PhillipM]

So another quick question...

on some of these fixtures it appears that the igniters are often replaced as well - would it be common to remove or disconnect the wiring from the igniter?

Do newer systems integrate the inductor, capacitor, and igniter into one "transformer" or are the three components usually separate?

I recently replaced 30 at a car dealership that is less than five years old, I agree on capacitor ruggedness. I've no idea if a voltage surge occurred or if they all reached the end of life at the same time. I only see ignitors in pulse start metal halide fixtures and only have seen them in 250W wall packs and I've no idea why pulse start is needed in area lighting. Pulse start is rare enough that I don't stock lamps and ballasts for them and in the case of a bad ballast, I'll replace it with a normal type.

There is a ballast type called an F-can that is all integrated typically used in large signs with 400 watt MH lamps. http://www.greenelectricalsupply.com/400-watt-f-can-mh-ballast.aspx

I have also seen electronics in recessed down lights such as this: http://www.prescolite.com/products/rhd6_ed17/

I'm not sure why one would disconnect the ignitor. Maybe you could educate me on it's purpose and if the fixture will light without it.

Hope this helps.

[manuellynch]

Hope this helps.

Philip - it did - thanks a ton. Are you coming to Las Vegas for ISA? Would like to be able to show you what we will be introducing - sounds like you would be very interested.

[cgsigns_jamie]

Hmmm... We've been researching new retrofit kits for parking lot and under canopy lights. Light Engines is the product we're testing at the moment. They're still working on getting UL listed. The product looks promising and they offer a 5 year warranty, which can be extended up to 10 years.

They also have a cabinet sign solution that we just used in smaller monument sign. That product still needs a bit of work before we can use it on a larger scale. They were having issues with consistent color from module to module and getting even light.

I've got a 375 SQ FT high-rise cabinet that my customer would like to light with LED's. Currently I have to use 22 400W MH to light the sign properly. That's a lot of power!

We'd love an Axiom solution

[manuellynch]

Hmmm... We've been researching new retrofit kits for parking lot and under canopy lights. Light Engines is the product we're testing at the moment. They're still working on getting UL listed. The product looks promising and they offer a 5 year warranty, which can be extended up to 10 years.

They also have a cabinet sign solution that we just used in smaller monument sign. That product still needs a bit of work before we can use it on a larger scale. They were having issues with consistent color from module to module and getting even light.

I've got a 375 SQ FT high-rise cabinet that my customer would like to light with LED's. Currently I have to use 22 400W MH to light the sign properly. That's a lot of power!

We'd love an Axiom solution

As I told you Jamie - come to Las Vegas and see it at ISA!!! We developed a solution that requires no safety approval as it does not modify the fixture or the wiring - and you will be screwing in a "light bulb" that is rated "lower power" than what the UL listed fixtures in the field are rated to handle. So screw it in and turn on the power! Our warranty will be 2 years. It is our cost that will be the shocker....

We have been developing this with one of the largest billboard companies in the world for Southern Hemisphere...

So yes - my questions were largely based on customer interest for this -

We just introduced our biggest product for outside USA - a T8 Tube that works with existing 230VAC European/Australian/New Zealand type ballasts - no rewiring. Makes the ballast run more efficiently than the fluorescent tube and is more light output and is 50% of the power....thanks to our smart engineering and our LED partner the big bad ass Nichia....or the technically superior Japanese high quality giant. :)

2011 is going to be a very big year for us around the world - we are seeing the highest growth we have ever experienced...rather interesting.

[cgsigns_jamie]

Hmmm... We've been researching new retrofit kits for parking lot and under canopy lights. Light Engines is the product we're testing at the moment. They're still working on getting UL listed. The product looks promising and they offer a 5 year warranty, which can be extended up to 10 years.

They also have a cabinet sign solution that we just used in smaller monument sign. That product still needs a bit of work before we can use it on a larger scale. They were having issues with consistent color from module to module and getting even light.

I've got a 375 SQ FT high-rise cabinet that my customer would like to light with LED's. Currently I have to use 22 400W MH to light the sign properly. That's a lot of power!

We'd love an Axiom solution

As I told you Jamie - come to Las Vegas and see it at ISA!!! We developed a solution that requires no safety approval as it does not modify the fixture or the wiring - and you will be screwing in a "light bulb" that is rated "lower power" than what the UL listed fixtures in the field are rated to handle. So screw it in and turn on the power! Our warranty will be 2 years. It is our cost that will be the shocker....

We have been developing this with one of the largest billboard companies in the world for Southern Hemisphere...

So yes - my questions were largely based on customer interest for this -

We just introduced our biggest product for outside USA - a T8 Tube that works with existing 230VAC European/Australian/New Zealand type ballasts - no rewiring. Makes the ballast run more efficiently than the fluorescent tube and is more light output and is 50% of the power....thanks to our smart engineering and our LED partner the big bad ass Nichia....or the technically superior Japanese high quality giant. :)

2011 is going to be a very big year for us around the world - we are seeing the highest growth we have ever experienced...rather interesting.

Well I have to come now... just to see this. Sounds like just the thing we're looking for!

[manuellynch]

Jamie -

we have a large billboard customer in the Southern hemisphere who purchased the first prototype units for a quick retrofit of the metal halide 400 Watt fixtures. We ran it by the government to confirm is still complies with all the safety standards and they confirmed it did.

We are finding more people wanting to stay with 250 Watt lamps as opposed to moving to fewer 400 Watt metal halide lamps. Our system will be 96-124 Watts depending on how you want to run it.

Manuel