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  • Board Patron

I don't frequent the Signweb board that much but I saw the following headline, "ST Releases Commercial State of the Industry Report".

I didn't realize that Signweb was the oracle of the sign industry and their view was anything more than something you read while taking a pitstop in the restroom. State of the industry?? The way they present this is sort of like "The State of The Union" which whether we like it or not, we all listen in to see which way the president thinks our country is headed. These guys put this kind of crap out there but can't even prevent spammers from jamming up their website with useless crap. They really are full of themselves and that is why I prefer to read and post on "The Sign Syndicate" because I feel I am with my fellow contractors while on this venue.

I think we should all get together on this board and produce the "Sign Syndicate State of The Industry" report. I would put way more credence in something coming from regular working folks from around the nation rather than a rag that is dominated by money. While I don't always agree with everyone on this board, and yes that even includes you Eric whom I respect, I feel like all the information is coming from hard working Americans who tell it like it is from their perspective in the part of the country they reside.

Come on Eric, get it going. And when you get to the presidency you an include this report within the State of The Union speech..............

Dominic

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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Dominic, i tend to feel the same way about industry rags, however they did send out a survey as does ISA and USSC.

We participate and use the results with a grain of salt. I do find it usefull in some ways.

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why cant someone produce a magazine dedicated to the conventional sign craft? Im so tired of seeing all this stuff about printers and the other horseshit filling the pages of signs of the times and signs and graphics business or what ever its called. I wanna buy a mag with real world technical info and pictures about building carved, routered, illuminated, channel letters, trucks, site excavation. Im sure i am not alone

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  • !llumenati

There have been magazines that have tried to take off which had a lot of promise but were swallowed up by the larger ones or off shoots of existing rags and consolidated after a short run.

I agree with you but it is a paperless era, Hell I wont even get a report card or progress report from my kids school anymore, they are 100% paperless. I asked the PTO president of our school what if someone didnt have a printer at home and wanted a paper copy , I was told the Public library has one.

Anywho, I think the syndicate is what you are describing, changing daily, news letters are sent out, all aspects of the trade are present.

Now, if some of the lurkers would post some pics of stuff they do or questions they have the site would be evolving even more, There are detailed "unbiased" tests going on which the rags wont even touch and the information here is not made up, it is from actual sign people.

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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I wouldn't say this site is what I am describing. To be honest I was kinda disappointed when I did my board patron thing thinking I was gonna get access to the stuff I didn't see before. But I really don't care about seeing someones writeup about a HOW-TO on designing cabinets or channel letters. The led tests are pretty cool though and helpful. I want to see pics and tricks of the trades. Im sure we could all learn diff techniques. You are right too many lurkers on this site and not enough people sharing info.

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I wouldn't say this site is what I am describing. To be honest I was kinda disappointed when I did my board patron thing thinking I was gonna get access to the stuff I didn't see before. But I really don't care about seeing someones writeup about a HOW-TO on designing cabinets or channel letters. The led tests are pretty cool though and helpful. I want to see pics and tricks of the trades. Im sure we could all learn diff techniques. You are right too many lurkers on this site and not enough people sharing info.

Sorry if the impression was pay to get info for becoming a Board Patron, the intent of Board Patronage is for those individuals who like this site and want to support it. All the tutorials and light tests stuff is just added bonus for doing so. You didn't find the Neon stuff interesting, Using a HV probe? Won't find that stuff in any sign magazine that's for sure :P

I do have to say I'll be adding in some tutorials soon on how to make channel letters and reverse channel letters by hand. Sounds redundant for an electric sign trade board and I know everyone makes theirs by CNC these days but I think we still need to know how to use hand tools. It's a shame the way schools are doing away with their wood, metal and auto shops these days and bust buying CNC's for everything.

But back to what you're describing on the "How-To" (Not talking directly to you) for the electric sign trade is just that. NO ONE wants to teach or explain. The electric sign trade is the biggest silent tradesmen, biggest "Mum" single aspect crowd there is to the broad spectrum of the sign industry. You can go to forums where their composed of Printers, stickey guys, wrappers, and pin stripers and they'll talk all day, they even have meets like the letterheads where they will teach you openly. But not when it comes to the electric sign trade!

Some of them talk about the electric sign trade, but I haven't read to much from those that really knew anything, most of it was speculation and most of those individuals are hacks fishing for info to be in an area they aren't qualified for. Forums for them, are THEIR school

This was and is one of neon's biggest downfalls. No one wanted to teach or explain, it had to be earned, it was ARROGANT. Hell, one of the LED guys here was trying to learn neon, but no one gave him the light of day, so he started producing LEDs, and he's pretty damn good at it! Most tradesmen in our industry think they know "Trade Secrets", there may be a a few, but not as many as they think. This is a big problem with the electric sign industry. But in some ways it also protects it. So this is why no one talks, we have a large visitorship, but, again. No one wants to talk, in part, it involves large contracts.

Quite honestly, a lot aren't even brave enough to post their projects in the open for other fellow electric sign tradesmen and women or colleagues to take a look, they'll do it elsewhere for some reason. I know this can be a tough forum for a lot of people, but it's for good reason.

To add, unlike some of the other aspect of the sign trade, the electric sign trade is the "cream of the crop" of the broad base sign industry, so in some ways it's almost expected you already know or know enough. This industry is a hard one to crack, most figure if they have the knowledge they have the advantage over their competition, again in some ways it's true.

If individuals want to learn about sign painting, guilding, carving I would suggest the Letterheads, they have annual meets if not more. If you would like to see some cool sign related CNC stuff I would suggest showing up to a shopbot tools meet that are held all over the US, different places and times, and free.

When people start sharing, people will start learning

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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That's very true

Not many learning the trade as an apprentice to a skilled sign craftsman any more.

Today most pick up the trade in bits and peices as they go on the fly . Lots of trial and error hack jobs out there to show for it.

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Erik, I didnt mean to come across as critical, I think your site is great! I became a patron to support your site but admit I expected some more info then what I found. The Hv probe is a great one. Keep them coming. I am always looking to absorb more info on servicing and diagnosing neon ect.

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Not at all, didn't take it that way. You're actually the first person to ever mention something back about it. I have more people inquiring on the light testing more than anything, so I've focused more on that. But I do know I need to focus on other areas too (Electricity is KILLING me!). Time has been the issue though, but I will try in the near future. If you have any specific topics, post them in the other topic, that way I can get a feel for what people would like to see.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Don't underestimate the importance of basic tutorials. I find myself on YouTube often watching videos of various aspects of sign manufacturing. About every other week we need to cut faces by hand because they are bigger than 5' in all directions, thus not fitting on the CNC router table.

Coming from the millwork industry, I can definately see the hesitance to share knowledge in the electric sign industry. I use to frequent the Woodweb forum and the difference between that and this forum or the other sign forums is like night and day. Any question from how to make something to how to run a business can be asked and will usually get many responses from a wide variety of people. I think the biggest difference between the two industries is how regional the millwork industry is versus the mix of national and regional players in the sign industry. If I asked a question on Woodweb, someone in California or Florida or wherever doesn't mind sharing info as they are not likely at all to be bidding on the same project, or bidding against me on anything ever. The sign industry is exactly the opposite which I think leads to the very little interaction on this board. It's very hard to share info with someone who might be a competitor, whether they're on the other side of town or the country.

*end rambling*

-Craig

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  • !llumenati

This non-sharing in the sign business has been around forever - all those little secrets that weren't supposed to be shared. Many times, sharing, especially on forums like this isn't condoned by bosses, but quite often - it's a "me-me" attitude. If someone else needs info - forget it. If I need info - then everyone is expected to not only have the answer, but to share it with me. Quite often - its a case of folks feeling that they have nothing worthwhile to share - so they just take. And quite often - its a case of being lazy.

gn

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Getting back to the original point for a second, here is what my outline would be for the industries "State of the Industry", of "Emergency State of The Industry", which would look much different than the Community Organizer's.

Where we are now, and where we should be.

  • Discussion Point 1 - The Mis-Characterization of light sources represented in our so called "faithful" industry media, where it is now and where it should be going
  • Discussion Point 2 - The absence in discussion or discovery in out Sign Associations who should be taking a better analysis of for the industry.
  • Discussion Point 3 - The financial meltdown and abuses in National Sign commodities labor force, The use of said labor forces becoming a dangerous line of credit.
  • Discussion Point 3b - Abuse of unlicensed and illegal contract dealings of end clients and national facility service providers.
  • Discussion Point 4 - The UL Monopoly / Tyranny, the discussion of greater competition and what's available now.
  • Discussion Point 5 - Focus on Sign Association Boards & Chairs with privilege abuse
  • Discussion Point 6 - Focus and re-education on "Green" claims, marketing & propaganda ponzi schemes and how our Media & Associations have fallen pray to it. How it has hurt our trade. What it is to be "Green" in the real world, and how it really impacts our daily life and environment.
  • Discussion Point 7 - Pulling our industry together to fight current government regulation, and future. Getting our Associations to join larger scale movements to solidify a lobby to fight against "Energy, safety, product safety, environmental movements that further downgrade our industry economy.
  • Discussion Point 8 - Setting higher quality standards in our industry with use of laboratory test studies

Just some key points to name the many I would have hit on, but all are damaging to the Community Organizer himself. So he opted to be a champion of vinyl and magnetic sign surveys and call it our "State of Industry Report". Oh yeah, he's a big champion of sure bets too.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • Board Patron

Getting back to the original point for a second, here is what my outline would be for the industries "State of the Industry", of "Emergency State of The Industry", which would look much different than the Community Organizer's.

Where we are now, and where we should be.

  • Discussion Point 1 - The Mis-Characterization of light sources represented in our so called "faithful" industry media, where it is now and where it should be going
  • Discussion Point 2 - The absence in discussion or discovery in out Sign Associations who should be taking a better analysis of for the industry.
  • Discussion Point 3 - The financial meltdown and abuses in National Sign commodities labor force, The use of said labor forces becoming a dangerous line of credit.
  • Discussion Point 3b - Abuse of unlicensed and illegal contract dealings of end clients and national facility service providers.
  • Discussion Point 4 - The UL Monopoly / Tyranny, the discussion of greater competition and what's available now.
  • Discussion Point 5 - Focus on Sign Association Boards & Chairs with privilege abuse
  • Discussion Point 6 - Focus and re-education on "Green" claims, marketing & propaganda ponzi schemes and how our Media & Associations have fallen pray to it. How it has hurt our trade. What it is to be "Green" in the real world, and how it really impacts our daily life and environment.
  • Discussion Point 7 - Pulling our industry together to fight current government regulation, and future. Getting our Associations to join larger scale movements to solidify a lobby to fight against "Energy, safety, product safety, environmental movements that further downgrade our industry economy.
  • Discussion Point 8 - Setting higher quality standards in our industry with use of laboratory test studies

Just some key points to name the many I would have hit on, but all are damaging to the Community Organizer himself. So he opted to be a champion of vinyl and magnetic sign surveys and call it our "State of Industry Report". Oh yeah, he's a big champion of sure bets too.

Eric;

On a serious side from yours truly, have you entertained the idea of developing something along this line? I like your ideas, especially #1 #3 and #3b. I think a serious survey and analysis by regular folks who belong to your "Sign Syndicate" would be absolutely refreshing and enlightening. Imagine a perspective from those on the front lines instead of those being held up as experts by money interests.

I hope you consider something in the future because an unbiased view is exactly the tonic to cure the sickness we have.

Hail to the chief..................

Dominic

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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I wouldn't say this site is what I am describing. To be honest I was kinda disappointed when I did my board patron thing thinking I was gonna get access to the stuff I didn't see before. But I really don't care about seeing someones writeup about a HOW-TO on designing cabinets or channel letters. The led tests are pretty cool though and helpful. I want to see pics and tricks of the trades. Im sure we could all learn diff techniques. You are right too many lurkers on this site and not enough people sharing info.

Sorry if the impression was pay to get info for becoming a Board Patron, the intent of Board Patronage is for those individuals who like this site and want to support it. All the tutorials and light tests stuff is just added bonus for doing so. You didn't find the Neon stuff interesting, Using a HV probe? Won't find that stuff in any sign magazine that's for sure :P

I do have to say I'll be adding in some tutorials soon on how to make channel letters and reverse channel letters by hand. Sounds redundant for an electric sign trade board and I know everyone makes theirs by CNC these days but I think we still need to know how to use hand tools. It's a shame the way schools are doing away with their wood, metal and auto shops these days and bust buying CNC's for everything.

But back to what you're describing on the "How-To" (Not talking directly to you) for the electric sign trade is just that. NO ONE wants to teach or explain. The electric sign trade is the biggest silent tradesmen, biggest "Mum" single aspect crowd there is to the broad spectrum of the sign industry. You can go to forums where their composed of Printers, stickey guys, wrappers, and pin stripers and they'll talk all day, they even have meets like the letterheads where they will teach you openly. But not when it comes to the electric sign trade!

Some of them talk about the electric sign trade, but I haven't read to much from those that really knew anything, most of it was speculation and most of those individuals are hacks fishing for info to be in an area they aren't qualified for. Forums for them, are THEIR school

This was and is one of neon's biggest downfalls. No one wanted to teach or explain, it had to be earned, it was ARROGANT. Hell, one of the LED guys here was trying to learn neon, but no one gave him the light of day, so he started producing LEDs, and he's pretty damn good at it! Most tradesmen in our industry think they know "Trade Secrets", there may be a a few, but not as many as they think. This is a big problem with the electric sign industry. But in some ways it also protects it. So this is why no one talks, we have a large visitorship, but, again. No one wants to talk, in part, it involves large contracts.

Quite honestly, a lot aren't even brave enough to post their projects in the open for other fellow electric sign tradesmen and women or colleagues to take a look, they'll do it elsewhere for some reason. I know this can be a tough forum for a lot of people, but it's for good reason.

To add, unlike some of the other aspect of the sign trade, the electric sign trade is the "cream of the crop" of the broad base sign industry, so in some ways it's almost expected you already know or know enough. This industry is a hard one to crack, most figure if they have the knowledge they have the advantage over their competition, again in some ways it's true.

If individuals want to learn about sign painting, guilding, carving I would suggest the Letterheads, they have annual meets if not more. If you would like to see some cool sign related CNC stuff I would suggest showing up to a shopbot tools meet that are held all over the US, different places and times, and free.

When people start sharing, people will start learning

Hey Eric, as some know we build signs (strictly) wholesale for other sign shops. I did a whole pictorial and article for SOT a few years back on the sign in our avatar that they never ran even though they said they would. We do everything except printing and billboards. We do standard and reverse letters -gasp- by hand. Some of our stuff is pretty hi-tech equipment wise and most shops would not have the equipment to duplicate but I would be happy to contribute info on projects. Let me know what folks want to see and we would be happy to do a photo essay and even answer questions. Let me know Steve

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I wouldn't say this site is what I am describing. To be honest I was kinda disappointed when I did my board patron thing thinking I was gonna get access to the stuff I didn't see before. But I really don't care about seeing someones writeup about a HOW-TO on designing cabinets or channel letters. The led tests are pretty cool though and helpful. I want to see pics and tricks of the trades. Im sure we could all learn diff techniques. You are right too many lurkers on this site and not enough people sharing info.

Sorry if the impression was pay to get info for becoming a Board Patron, the intent of Board Patronage is for those individuals who like this site and want to support it. All the tutorials and light tests stuff is just added bonus for doing so. You didn't find the Neon stuff interesting, Using a HV probe? Won't find that stuff in any sign magazine that's for sure :P

I do have to say I'll be adding in some tutorials soon on how to make channel letters and reverse channel letters by hand. Sounds redundant for an electric sign trade board and I know everyone makes theirs by CNC these days but I think we still need to know how to use hand tools. It's a shame the way schools are doing away with their wood, metal and auto shops these days and bust buying CNC's for everything.

But back to what you're describing on the "How-To" (Not talking directly to you) for the electric sign trade is just that. NO ONE wants to teach or explain. The electric sign trade is the biggest silent tradesmen, biggest "Mum" single aspect crowd there is to the broad spectrum of the sign industry. You can go to forums where their composed of Printers, stickey guys, wrappers, and pin stripers and they'll talk all day, they even have meets like the letterheads where they will teach you openly. But not when it comes to the electric sign trade!

Some of them talk about the electric sign trade, but I haven't read to much from those that really knew anything, most of it was speculation and most of those individuals are hacks fishing for info to be in an area they aren't qualified for. Forums for them, are THEIR school

This was and is one of neon's biggest downfalls. No one wanted to teach or explain, it had to be earned, it was ARROGANT. Hell, one of the LED guys here was trying to learn neon, but no one gave him the light of day, so he started producing LEDs, and he's pretty damn good at it! Most tradesmen in our industry think they know "Trade Secrets", there may be a a few, but not as many as they think. This is a big problem with the electric sign industry. But in some ways it also protects it. So this is why no one talks, we have a large visitorship, but, again. No one wants to talk, in part, it involves large contracts.

Quite honestly, a lot aren't even brave enough to post their projects in the open for other fellow electric sign tradesmen and women or colleagues to take a look, they'll do it elsewhere for some reason. I know this can be a tough forum for a lot of people, but it's for good reason.

To add, unlike some of the other aspect of the sign trade, the electric sign trade is the "cream of the crop" of the broad base sign industry, so in some ways it's almost expected you already know or know enough. This industry is a hard one to crack, most figure if they have the knowledge they have the advantage over their competition, again in some ways it's true.

If individuals want to learn about sign painting, guilding, carving I would suggest the Letterheads, they have annual meets if not more. If you would like to see some cool sign related CNC stuff I would suggest showing up to a shopbot tools meet that are held all over the US, different places and times, and free.

When people start sharing, people will start learning

Hey Eric, as some know we build signs (strictly) wholesale for other sign shops. I did a whole pictorial and article for SOT a few years back on the sign in our avatar that they never ran even though they said they would. We do everything except printing and billboards. We do standard and reverse letters -gasp- by hand. Some of our stuff is pretty hi-tech equipment wise and most shops would not have the equipment to duplicate but I would be happy to contribute info on projects. Let me know what folks want to see and we would be happy to do a photo essay and even answer questions. Let me know Steve

I Can't even tell you how many times people have submitted GREAT articles to SOT and others only to be told "Later" well I've seen these submittals filled with numbers and facts. It's just not what THEY want to publish because it might contradict their thinking and base, don't want to offend them!

If you want Steve, and you have some detailed pics or videos and you want to do a write up, we can stick it in the Tutorial section and I'll give you a long upgraded membership.

It's too bad, read some great articles but some hold onto hope it may one day reach the press. But, back in January the Community Organizer just said "I received this submittal by email last week", ENTER, The New England Sign Spinner, a bad article rushed ahead of the line, an article the Community Organizer himself even questioned. So what happened to the one year long que? Haha

This offer goes for anyone who is interested in contributing and receiving.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Do you want simple channel letter or cabinet or something unique. We see this standard stuff every day and is thought to be bread and butter boring but I can do that too. We do not install but if the customer sends a final photo we can add it as well. I do something next week and see how and if it works and see how it goes.

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Do you want simple channel letter or cabinet or something unique. We see this standard stuff every day and is thought to be bread and butter boring but I can do that too. We do not install but if the customer sends a final photo we can add it as well. I do something next week and see how and if it works and see how it goes.

I have a couple things in mind, you may be able to help and save me time. On my way out but I'll PM you.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Not to beat this dead horse to death, but the Signweb thing is a joke. I primarily cruise the "Sign Syndicate" but I do read the Signweb infrequently. The General Board section of their site has degenerated into a spammers paradise. Today I notice they have a cool link to a pornographic site and god knows what else on some others. But I suppose using some twisted logic, they can be related to the sign industry.

Again, this site is an authority on the state of the sign industry?? More like an authority on the state of internet confusion. Doesn't the board administrator on the Signweb read and take this bullshit down???

Thank goodness for this site and the fact that our administrator doesn't condone or allow that kind of crap.........

Dominic

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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