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Erik Sine

ISA - No help with National Sign Co's vs Local Sign Shops

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There was a post at the ISA linkedin group where a fellow colleague was asking about national sign companies that are late in paying. What the relationships have been with national vs local shops. Kirstie commented about checking out the review list we have here http://www.thesignsy...ociations-list/

It's ironic we happened to send out a mass email on the same topic she commented on and the whole tread over there got deleted??? I can only assume it may have struck a nerve where some of the very board members and chairman companies that don't fair well in the list, maybe they don't want it out.

post-127-0-62494200-1320274138.jpg

What's the use of an association that won't help out in the industry widespread (whether you are their member or not) problems of late paying, illegal contract terms that break the business code/contractors laws? Does the problem solving end with just borrowing the time of major sign component manufacturers engineers to solve their own issues with legislation and civic code planning? More worried about reporting illegal unlicensed contractors and spreading pamphlets?

Guess it's too hard to ask them to try and enforce a little bit of their own "code of ethics" when it comes to their own members and board members of privilege and clean up this industry. But they'll gladly enforce what you may owe them in membership dues, they don't want to step on each others toes and just continue to sell THEIR "sunshine"

It's not shocking, but sad. We'll just continue to pick up where THEY lack.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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That would be an interesting editorial for your next article - or possibly an interesting editorial to other magazines and see if they actually print it !

gn

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Did you really expect them to make a stand. They are the "leadership in the industry" and how dare any of us question them and their actions. It's like the wizard of oz.......don"t pay attention to the man behind the curtain.....just do what I tell you to do, the great one has spoken.

I understand that some of these "Leaders" may be to busy to see the operations of their companies. Maybe they believe that all is well and everyone is happy, and all their invoices are paid on time. Maybe they believe it is a perfect world too. But, they need to open their eyes and accept responsibility to correct the issues being brought to their attention. No one wants to hear that their companies reputation sucks as a payer.

This site works.......if we all make correct statements about the "National" companies we all benifit. The good ones will get the respect they deserve and the bad....F*&^ THEM. They will have to conform to our terms. We, the subs are their lifeline to their success. Without us they fail to meet their customers demands, they loose. The subs that knowingly take the risks of getting paid, take the jobs at cheap pricing from bad companies deserve what they get.

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Let me make an edit if I may....

We'll just continue to pick up where THEY lack, backbone!

Our membership expires soon, consider it non-re-occur.

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I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!!! ISA doesn't get any of my money.

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That would be an interesting editorial for your next article - or possibly an interesting editorial to other magazines and see if they actually print it !

gn

Interesting editorial here for sure, but there is no way we can expect or ever see the day when "The World Leader In Sign Information Since 1906" Signs of The Times Magazine will ever report on "Supporting sign and visual communications companies through community, education and advocacy" International Sign Association, because they share a bed composed of green sheets and pillows with one another. I mean c'mon "were jealous people after all" So it would have to be reported by another who aren't so "cozy", and even THAT, is a longshot.

So, is anyone ready for The International Sign Associations excuse for deleting? Here it is...

Wait for it...

wait for it....

Ah, here it is. They said it has to do with "Anti-Trust" grounds that it MUST be deleted. :crazy:

Let's look up the definition to "Anti-Trust"

adj. Opposing or intended to regulate business monopolies, such as trusts or cartels, especially in the interest of promoting competition: of laws and regulations; designed to protect trade and commerce from unfair business practices

So, is anyone up for a good game of Monopoly? I get the Race Car!

post-3-0-90792700-1320336326.jpg

Can anyone at International Sign Association tell ME, how to fit this Monopoly sized board into a credit card sized slot? Tell me how they fit it into this equation? Show me the similarity of the two, instead of the HUGE contrast? Maybe it's just me?

Apparently there may be some way of tying in collusion of price fixing into message board. Hmmmm, I thought we discuss prices here all the time? Don't we sometimes ask what some of us charge for a 120' crane on labor? I've never heard any of us colluding to all charge the same price, or fixing a price? So can someone, anyone at The International Sign Association chime in and let us know how they compared an orange to this pristine apple of a topic? Hmmmmm? Anyone?

Oh look...

Here comes more sunshine,

post-3-0-17628400-1320336767.jpg

Nope sorry it wasn't, it's just another ISA infomercial webinar to better ourselves rising from D.C.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I apologize for not replying sooner, but I was tied up all day with a planners' seminar. The following paragraph represents the viewpoint of ISA:

While ISA encourages open dialogue on its online message boards, we are committed to acting in the best interests of our industry. We reserve the right to monitor the conversations that occur within our social media networks to ensure we are in compliance with applicable antitrust laws. We cannot facilitate or provide a forum for discussions about payment, pricing, boycotts or any other conversations that violate such laws. The antitrust laws apply not only to associations and their members, but also to companies that are not association members and apply in all forums, electronic or otherwise. Violations of antitrust laws could result in severe consequences, including fines of up to $100 million and prison terms of up to ten years for those who violate these laws.

<now speaking for me>

While ISA cannot limit or adjust what conversations or dialogue occurs among other individuals in other locations, we will not be a part of those discussions and we believe that anyone who engages in those types of discussions (especially in an archived electronic forum) is exposing themselves to significant legal liability. Other trade associations have been hit hard by the USDOJ for merely being present in the room while pricing and other contractual matters were discussed. It's not worth it for ANY responsible association or group, no matter the industry or who is leading the organization.

Kenny Peskin

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You guys have been viewing this for 24 hours now and your reply is a generalization.

Tell me how this discussion/SERIOUS issue about about National Sign & Service Companies, & Local Sign Shops, & Suppliers business experience and payment histories fits into "Antitrust" without generalizing? I know Lords is coming to put out an educational seminar but let's not add adhesive yet to something that's really not there. Please, relay some case history to demonstrate of such a case. I'm always willing to learn, and so are others here

I know NESA before ISA had it's troubles back in the 50's for antitrust as it relates to discrimination, "from engaging in any exclusionary or otherwise potentially or patently anticompetitive conduct such as price fixing, market allocation, concerted refusals to deal, resale price maintenance, or evaluations of parts manufacturers, parts distributors, or sign manufacturers that are disseminated among association members".

But enough about that, Legal Liability only comes from making false statements, that's up to the individual. Like LinkedIn and here, there is a identity to membership and with that comes responsibility. If a post is true (good or bad), and a company has the contracts and history/paper trail to back it up, then there is no libel or slander at hand in posting about it. It almost sounds like the International Sign Association is trying to "detour" discussion about such serious matters in our industry and sweep it away.

Does The International Sign Association see a problem with it's members/board members who MIGHT be in clear contractual agreement violations when it comes to payments to subcontractors and suppliers? After all, in most states 30 days is state contract law. Would continual abuse not conflict with a sign associations "code of ethics?" if it's members engage in such activity? Would you still let them display your emblem on their websites and stationary to portray themselves so be a company of integrity because of that badge to their clients and potential clients? Because in some ways, call me gullible, when a company displays such things on a wall I seem to "trust" them a little more.

In short, does ISA see a problem? Or are we all just going to continually get sunshine email brief updates on EMC disputes, and when the next crane safety course is? The little guys need your help on this one. If you want to ignore the issue, that's fine, we'll continue to do what we do here, and talk about the industry problems and those that are apart of it.

Oh, and thank god for "Archived Electronic Forums" such as this one. You should never fear to speak the truth, and always speak to the best of your knowledge, and we still live in a world where we can express "opinion".

It's funny, I make most of my buying decisions on products from sites like Amazon.com and newegg.com to name a few that have customer feedback and rating systems right next to the very product they sell. I even visit audiophile forums for advice on what to buy and what to stay away from. There isn't much contrast from those sites to what we have here.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Erik, thanks for your attempt(s) with the ISA regarding subcontractor payment times. This is a battle we "subcontractors" have to deal with daily.

I find it hard to believe a group of small business owners (subcontractors), asking an association to have it's members abide by their association guidelines. Somehow constitutes an "Anti Trust" liability. I will continue to add my comments and experiences with the national companies on the list. I'm not worried about what I write, it's the truth.

I don't care what others charge for their services. I only care about what I charge, and my bottom line. I've had 2 large nationals dangle a lot of work in front of me in the last few weeks. The problem was becoming a "Team Partner" with them. Reducing my labor/truck rates to a barely break even amount. Then basically supplying parts for 10-20% above my cost. Then of course, wait on payment. I passed on the deals. They didn't work for my business plan.

I just signed up to be a Board Patron. I thank you for this service you're providing. And felt I needed to help support it.

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Erik, thanks for your attempt(s) with the ISA regarding subcontractor payment times. This is a battle we "subcontractors" have to deal with daily.

I find it hard to believe a group of small business owners (subcontractors), asking an association to have it's members abide by their association guidelines. Somehow constitutes an "Anti Trust" liability. I will continue to add my comments and experiences with the national companies on the list. I'm not worried about what I write, it's the truth.

I don't care what others charge for their services. I only care about what I charge, and my bottom line. I've had 2 large nationals dangle a lot of work in front of me in the last few weeks. The problem was becoming a "Team Partner" with them. Reducing my labor/truck rates to a barely break even amount. Then basically supplying parts for 10-20% above my cost. Then of course, wait on payment. I passed on the deals. They didn't work for my business plan.

I just signed up to be a Board Patron. I thank you for this service you're providing. And felt I needed to help support it.

Thank you very much Mark, I'm humbled by your post and support.

I'll continue to do what I can and always provide a platform for all those that need, and want it. This economy is getting worse, so is the "crony capitalism". I just learned of something today that stinks to high heaven how someone in our industry who is/has been using their status and position of power to get favors, favors to benefit themselves and propel themselves in areas they just couldn't reach themselves prior, using their position to use other companies as stepping stones. Wish I could say more, but maybe that time will come down the road. What an interesting topic that will be, if it happens in one area, I'm sure it may be more rampant in others.

BIG thank you all to everyone who has been responding to the mass email announcement on chiming in on the National Sign & Service Company Review List, it's been a VERY big successful turnout. I think by years end we need to pass out an award of some sort to these good National Sign & Service Companies that make for good partners who have good relations and by abiding to good payment terms. We'll review the list and get some picked out.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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The ISA is "comitted to the best interest our industry" ?

There has to be stronger leadership and action behind those words for them to mean a thing .

The ISA 's failure to take on the real issues in the industry is what fuels the growing interest in this site. IMO

Thanks Erik for doing what the ISA won't . LEAD !

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This is actually a simple thing. Go ahead and take 1 or 2 small jobs from a national. If they can't get you paid in a reasonable time (30 to 60 days since they all have "paper work" to process) then don't take any more work from them. If we all did this they would "come to terms" with on time payment. Right now our company only will work for a very short list of nationals but we get paid ON TIME from them.

See simple do your own home work and stand up for yourself.

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What a typical response you would expect to hear from a politician and not what you would expect from a association>>>>>I don't think they know how to address this.

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Here's something to bust a gut over.

http://iweb.signs.or...ct_code=WEBEX28

What make a webinar over it? This should be a mandatory class before ISA accepts you into their ranks or as a Board member, of course with the above content of this thread. Sort of like how U.L. make you take a class/webinar before they hand you over labels.

Oh, other sign Associations should champion the same criteria too.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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