The Do Nothings

[Erik Sine]

Next one. What the hell happened here with all the tags?

It seems to me that you are angry because you do not feel that the associations did enough for YOUR personal interest. I think that this forum is a valuable tool, but not to bash those who are working hard to support this industry.

My Personal Issue? No, it's the issue for all Neon & Fluorescent lamp manufacturers and whatever other aspect of our trade is getting the shaft. Your a President on an Association who does not see this?

We here in Florida through our support to ISA, as well as ISA are working hard on a number of issues related to "Green" building codes, fighting EPA/Government issues related to acceptable mercury levels in Neon and lighting, paint booth restrictions, crane safety, high rise sign Structural Engineering, etc., etc. We also spend a lot of time on code issues, and on EMC legislation. Those are all real issues.

Uh, who fought the merc issue with iMerc/NEWOA? ISA, or manufacturers? No code fighting and fighting for the rights of EMC's for manufacturers are NOT real issues. REAL issues are those that effect not only this industry but those on the outside as well as the consumers.

I do not see it as our responsibility to police trade magazines for false advertising. If you think that we are disregarding that issue because our members might be making them, you are sadly mistaken. Wake up, in this information age, people have the ability to say what they want about their products. It is up to us as individuals to make the right decisions from the information we gather

Sadly mistake no.

Your answer is very soft, and very well spoken for someone who doesn't want to step on toes and just play nice with membership relations as a President.

It is up to the Individuals to make informed decisions with information provided, relayed, and marketed to. But where is the information for the other side of the story which is omitted, besides this site that delves into the facts? Let alone in association seminars, brochures, social media outlets?

International Sign Association - "Supporting sign and visual communications companies through community, education and advocacy".

Above is the tagline for ISA, it states and portrays leadership for those in our industry and out. What's in red is absent and not fairly represented.

Signs of The Times, “The World Leader In Sign Information Since 1906” Is what it says on the cover of the magazine. That’s states “leadership”, that's the magazine with the State of the Industry reports and ISA reports.

This is where most of the garbage gets printed besides two tech writers who provide the only real information. But that tagline again states to those in the industry and those outside, that this magazine is the "be all".

Of course you need to police and protect our industry from damaging misinfomation, you are a leader right? PROVIDE some leadership! If you make an effort to educate the "misinformed" (as your fellow colleague labeled me) editors, that would clean their act up as you SPEND MONEY in their magazine. Wait, those damn membership issues again, stepping on toe, don't want that.

Also, if associations have so many subcommittees like "Energy, Govenment, Research & Technology, Sustainability, ETC ETC" then there is plenty of room for "Technology Public Relations" subcommittee who can fact check. If they don't have the time then maybe they can subcontract a special group from this site out, I can involve plenty of the industry minds that are members here. Not to be employed or associated, just subbed out.

I take offense to the statement that we are advancing our own personal/business interest. Other than the paid administration of ISA, all others are strictly volunteers that offer their time and resources to better this industry. I am sorry if we cannot agree with every individual stance on issues regarding our industry, but we strive hard to isolate and administer to the needs of the industry. Calling us "Do Nothings" because your interest is not at the top of the list is both insulting and irresponsible!

You should take offense to what happens right under your nose. I don't know you personally or know YOUR interests, but OUR interests are out in the open. I'm not stating you volunteer your time for your OWN interests. But if you think you're going to tell me that individuals at ISA and in other associations don't advance their OWN interests, then...well, I'm speechless.

[ksoday]

You, sir, make no sense, and you are incredibly misinformed. ISA, FSA, and other associations are made up of people just like me. People who volunteer their time and resources to better this industry. You want to stand on the outside and throw stones at people who are working hard to protect your industry while you cry about your own misgivings. You want to criticize those organizations, and expect them to fight your battles, but you don't want to belong to them. Shame on you.

Perhaps you should approach your local association and volunteer to head up a committee for Technology Public Relations, or would it just be easier for you to sit behind your computer and complain. Get involved, and get to know some of these people you are trashing here. You do that, you get involved, and then you come back and tell me how those people are only looking out for their own personal interest.

I will waste no more time with you, until you are ready to have an intelligent conversation.

[Snoochie]

You, sir, make no sense, and you are incredibly misinformed. ISA, FSA, and other associations are made up of people just like me. People who volunteer their time and resources to better this industry. You want to stand on the outside and throw stones at people who are working hard to protect your industry while you cry about your own misgivings. You want to criticize those organizations, and expect them to fight your battles, but you don't want to belong to them. Shame on you.

Perhaps you should approach your local association and volunteer to head up a committee for Technology Public Relations, or would it just be easier for you to sit behind your computer and complain. Get involved, and get to know some of these people you are trashing here. You do that, you get involved, and then you come back and tell me how those people are only looking out for their own personal interest.

I will waste no more time with you, until you are ready to have an intelligent conversation.

I have to take exception to your post. The Sign Syndicate is doing its part to better the industry just as I am sure you feel you are doing your part. This board is proof positive that Erik isn't standing on the sidelines and just hurling stones. He is in the fight. You may not like what he has to say, but it does not diminish his contribution in any fashion.

What I will also say is that being affiliated with this board has helped my business tremendously in staying away from so many of those deadbeat national companies that most assuredly comprise the membership of the organizations you listed. That along with the feedback that I have received online and by telephone from others on this board, with technical questions, has been invaluable to me as well.

Erik has his opinions and valid points just as you most likely do. If you don't like what is posted by him on this board, simply do not log on and read what he has to say. It is a free country and he is entitled just like you are to express his views.

If you feel it is a waste of time to respond to him, by all means don't.............

Best of luck to both The Sign Syndicate and your organizations going forward.

Dominic

[ksoday]

I too, find this forum to be helpful and informative, and I do believe it is an important tool for our industry. But I also think it should be used constructively, not destructively. He apparently has no idea of what sign association are doing for companies like his, whether he is a member or not.

I never stated that I did not like what he has to say about his own issue, just his opinion of sign associations. I, too, have the right to say what I want, and I do not appreciate the associations I represent being called "do nothings". Just because we may not be doing enough in his mind for his issues does not mean we are "do nothings" He is sadly mistaken about the work that sign associations do. There are many, many issues affecting our industry and we are doing our best to do what is right for the promotion and protection of our industry. We do not sit around and think of ways to pad our own pockets, nor do we stay away from issues just because it may not be in the best interest of a particular member company.

While those "deadbeat" companies may be members of an association, they do not "comprise" the membership of those organizations. The majority of our members are sign companies, just like you and I. We within the association also warn our members about slow or no paying companies. If you, or any one else, have an issue with a particular National Company, send me an email at ksoday@projecxgroup.com, and I will see that it is brought to the attention of both FSA and ISA.

I will say again, if one has an issue with what we are doing, or feels we are not doing enough, join us and lend a hand in the right direction. Don't just sit back and criticize.

There is strength in numbers, think of the possibilities if we all worked together.

[Erik Sine]

This has turned into what was to be expected from anyone heavily involved with Associations, I would have expected the same feedback and comments in 2005. Evidently time doesn't change there as it does here. I'm not really addressing FSA or Ksoday or his efforts, as my original theme of this threads main focus was "U.L.-E or U.L. - Environment" and the endorsement by CSA in post #1 http://www.thesignsy...2265#entry32265

I do not apologize for more extra exertion or energy to make a point.

Now, I've heard nothing but deflections and dancing around when it's come to these associations and their answer to my labeling them as "Do Nothings" in regards for their associations heavy support of the Green Movement which devastates this electric sign industry. We all know it's pure marketing, and nothing more than profit farming all the while it strips us of our freedoms and liberties with calls of legislation upon us. Now, who in the associations is endorsing and promoting this? I'd like names, so I can avoid labeling you "all". I've not said assocations "do nothing" when it comes to code and EMC regulation litigation, that's to be expected. I also am tired of hearing of large "expenditures" for this program and that, congrats if it helps our industry out a little, maybe you have your priorities mixed up and you can help out in a bigger way. This site is here for you, for that.

To hear, "well you do it.....you take the time and quit complaining". That's the same as hearing a caller, calling into a political talk radio show and telling the host who holds a platform program of it's listenership to run for office if he doesn't like what he sees and to stop complaining because it jabs his particular political party, or the sports reporter that is told that maybe he can run faster, that her should do the job.

This is my involvement, and I know it bugs a lot people and companies having this site here. I've heard it over and over, had the calls had the emails, get's old. The fact is my time is spent on what associations and trade magazines and other entities won't touch because of membership, sponsorship, and advertising, political sway. They won't admit it to you, hell maybe at the volunteer lever they don't even know, as that would be catastrophic especially if you and I found out. So it's left as the unwritten rule or policy no one talks about, probably coming from the core of the associations, or the ones who employ themselves, not the outer crust of volunteers. To deny that, would be to deny the notion our politicians don't cozy up to special interest groups. The time I spend here in informing, dispelling, reporting, holding a platform for interaction and participation, housing important test projects that is not held anywhere else for all to see and participate is more valuable than my time spent, either trying to get employed in a trade magazine, energy company, DOE, or as a volunteer in a sign association to bring change. If I'm there....I won't be here.

So for everyone reading this, this is nothing but further deflection the same as you read earlier, "My Interests, or My Issue" This is the electric sign industry, this is, and always has been an issue for us, so don't be fooled by word play, or any of the typical statements we see coming out of our congress or politicians. They can't come out and say it, just like the associations will never officially address anything I've ever mentioned publicly, or fight openly and publicly to some of the big issues of our industry, it' just repeats of former glories or regular typical association litigation with municipals. Yes, I and we thank you for that time spent, but at the same time IMO term limits need to be set as to offset possible relationship and favoritism building, we don't need a country club

The bigger battles that need to be fought are those that strip us of what we do.

I've only had two issues with associations, other than that they do a good job for the most part.

1) Non support of the Green Movement like UL-E or any other energy efficiency movement, fight that movement in the public opinion arena whether it be trade magazines, or holding seminars to better explain all light sources, not just one, and dispel the myths and claims. This helps us all, it helps us to keep our freedoms, fair competition and it helps the consumer

2) Associations need to enforce their code of conduct or ethics and crack down on members / board members when they are abusing suppliers and subcontractors with late to non paying which is illegal in most states (30 days), after that it's a pure contractors license law violation. Make announcements bring it up at the annual supplier/national sign company summit, make webinars, do seminars on solutions which involve liens, remedies, make a program out of it if you like. I will give you free advertising here and even announce in our weekly newsletters that go out to over 8,000 contacts in the electric sign industry. This is not at the volunteer level, this is at the association core of the employed.

Kenneth said his association FSA has warned it's members about slow paying. That is the best piece of news I've heard, and FSA should be commended as the first to do so, others need to follow suit. Kenneth, I know we don't agree on some things but if your association is willing, I'd like you to post that letter your association has sent out. I think this is good publicity for a good cause, it shows your association is going an extra step for it's members and those outside your membership as well as setting a standard. People need to know what your association is doing, and that's big!

[fishing nut]

As for the members that have dropped the membership, I am pretty sure that they view from the guest profile, Its like a drug, You just gotta see whats going on.

"Uh, who fought the merc issue with iMerc/NEWOA? ISA, or manufacturers?"

Interesting you mentioned this, We spent hundreds of hours working on this. Funny thing is that it was all brought on by a component manufacturer trying to get their product specified by pointing out how bad it was in a dirty shop and how great theirs was, we all know the story so thats all for that.

First off, There are some great people that are in the associations but there are also probably more of them that are only in it for the intrest of their own company. It is amazing what spews out of some of their mouths when they are sauced up on free drinks.

To all the associations, Why have none of ya done life testing and comparisons like Erik has? I have been to a couple association meetings and frankly, fell asleep, they do throw a good party though.

how about this, I dare CSA to make Erik the president next time around and allow him to choose who his cabinet will be. I dont know how long the terms are but I would say let him do it for 2 years, If there is no change then back to the way it was. What is there to loose?

[ksoday]

Please look at the November 2011 issue of Signs of the Times, page 34, "Mercurophobia" It mentions the involvement of ISA and the Euorpean Sign Foundation as far as inquiries, research, and political intervention with regard to IMERC, and where to find information on what they are doing about the issue. There is also a link to IMERC to file a complaint.

And thanks for the discussion. We may not agree on issues, but good discussion keeps us all active and young.

[Erik Sine]

Ksoday,

For someone who's in ISA, you're SO Uninformed. Put down the Community Organizers November issue of the"Signs Fiction". Make a phone call to the highest ranking individual of ISA, someone who's been around since 2002. Ask them the question, "WHO DID MOST OF THE RESEARCH FOR FIGHTING IMERC/NEWOA for ISA, WHO SPENT THE TIME, WHO SHOWED UP?"

Then tell me who it was you talked to so we can get it on record. K?

Guess we can agree it's a good discussion as we're all going to learn a lot

[ksoday]

Give me a break!

I sent you the info, ISA is still working on the issue, as well as many others. All you have to do is follow the link and learn all you want about their involvement.

*

You don't want to hear anyone else's opinion, you just want to berate any one who doesn't tell you what a great guy guy you are and what a great job you are doing. I tried to keep this discussion from becoming personal, but you insist on making it that way. Get off your soapbox and quit being so self serving.

I came here for open, honest discussion. Obviously that wont be found here.

[Erik Sine]

Personal, it's not becoming personal with me. I don't want opinion. I want fact, you don't want to hear or absorb the facts. You won't admit, you're wrong on certain things we have been discussing here. Stop deflecting again with nonsense and making it about me, again. This serves ME, in no way.

Sure, their "involved", now, but make no mistake It's not from work ISA did on their own. The problem is, they claim things as their own and give no credit. So do you know who did the work for the battle with Vermont as "vaguely" stated in the Nov issue? Funny, it's never mentioned. How insulting.

[fishing nut]

ISA was instrumental in the fight to a certain extent, There were component manufacturers and some endusers involved in fact gathering and setting up the parameters of a variety of tests to be done at an endusers location outdoors on thier building to determine standards for volume. Once all the parameters and amount of needed tests were decided upon the group was informed that there was no money to do the tests. This group then was disbanned and reorganized at a later date with totally new people, There was never a mention of it or even an invitation to join the new group afterwards.

Topic seems to be going astray, I want to point out that not all Members are in it for their own gain but yes there are many that are and they are the do nothings. All as it takes is one bad seed, problem is that it spreads like wildfire.

[Erik Sine]

Here's an important question.

Fishing Nut, you just mentioned that there was no funding (thought this is odd) and the group was disbanded. Was your company for all the work they did, tests, research (100's of hours) etc for the battle with iMerc/NEWOA / Vermont........... ever paid, or compensated by ISA?

[fishing nut]

No

[Sign Ninja]

What an interesting topic this has been to follow when I've had the time. It took me a bit to find, but Eric has posted articles here when he likes what these associations have done and I remember not to long ago this article so I'm not of the opinion he hates them, or feels they entirely do nothing. I think he's just calling it out like it is, it's just too bad their not that receptive to it which is not reassuring.

It's a known about why some people join associations, knowing my wifes troubles with her Realty association which I won't go into. However I noticed the comments about all volunteers of associations are Do Gooders filled with people who have the best intentions at heart stopped when a company who has been around longer than most, seen more than most, dealed more than most threw in their two cents about the fact there is a lot of Do Nothings in associations. If that is blatant denial their in trouble and leads one to wonder what's going on.

Have a good weekend everyone time to go look for a Christmas Tree and finish shopping this weekend.

[ksoday]

That's OK guys, you keep calling us "Do Nothings", and we will keep doing all the good work that we do. We seem to be doing fine without your being members, and will continue to advance on issues hurting the industry without your support. You will still gain from what we do, and that is just fine with us.

[Erik Sine]

I'll try to be optimistic to see what changes happen with other associations out there (maybe a new one will sprout), new chairs coming into place for 2012, new board members. Let's look at some of the new comers, read what they say and see what's to come. Not much changes for my state unfortunately when it comes to beating back the green movement that devastates this country let alone my state as we see big companies leaving. We get the Sign Hugger this year who owns a big pair of Birkenstock's, who thinks green is the next best thing since sliced bread, "It's not a trend, but a migration" They have the new ISA green code champion who's fighting for merc lamps in the green council, yet she's a greeny (makes me wonder, but whatever). She also was writing about all the great green construction jobs we have in this country, really??? Great way to pick where stimulus goes, jobs that the free market does not merit. Meanwhile these green companies are going bankrupt with mass layoff, some possibly going to prison. Countries like Spain went bankrupt trying the green movement, now mass elections threw out the old guard. America is trying to be like Europe, Europe is trying to be like what America, was. Total reversal.

These associations will continue to be useful idiots for those who benefit to gain power and money when they continue down this dark road of promoting the Green Movement, which is......the new communist movement. Products and services can't sell based on their own merit, government creates incentives & subsides with OUR money, government picks the winners, not the free market.

At least this new year is an election year where we can go to the booth and express our direction.

BTW- Am I the only one who's owed money by Solar companies?

[slowdncr]

One of the organizations that you portray as "do-nothings" is presenting a webinar on a subject dear to your rants:

The Art and Science of Getting Paid in a Tough Economy

Do you like to get paid? This webinar will discuss the many tools available to companies to ensure that they are paid in tough economic times from statutory protections to risk management practices which can greatly increase the likelihood of payment and decrease the amount of time spent chasing money for work already performed.

(Date) January 12, 2012

(Time) 2:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m. ET / 11:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon PT

(Presenter) Michael Pappas, Miles & Stockbridge P.C. For more information, contact ISA at (703) 836-4012 or info@signs.org.

[Erik Sine]

Oh wonderful, another program/webinar to work on the opposite side of the fence that runs in parallel to help me collect from the failing green sector that your associations shameless love to promote.

Maybe if associations didn't cumulate with bureaucrats and governments agencies these sectors would fail much faster, or not exist at all protecting consumers and entire industries. Industries, services, and products that stand on their own with merit, performance and without subsidiaries, rebates, and favoritism wouldn't have their "Right to Prosper" circumvented by our industry leadership.

This is sort of like that Sign Museum, you have one brother who shows off impressive antiques of signs made by a certain sector of our trade & industry, the other brother publishes articles to make that same sector of our trade into antiques and a thing of the past. Hmmmmm, speaking of which, I still wonder WHO could have given a $900,000 anonymous donation to the museum to make those dreams come true, and why it was anonymous??? I would think this would make someone proud to do so, add a little marketing with the notoriety. Strange. Sorry, took a tangent with this paragraph. Scatter brain today.

Here's a program you can start.

Cutting Through all the Green Bullshit

Having failing signs? Clients disappointed? Signs just not lasting as marketed and promoted by the trade magazines and the sign associations in performance and quality that you read about??? Here we'll get the true understanding with facts and figures for all to see, touch,and hear. The pro's and con's of all products....we'll cut though all the "Bullshit" you read about, hear about, and have put into your manufacturing. Together we'll brave through all that you have been led to believe, we'll unlearn, and learn again, together. The science of Green, fact or fiction? Are we really saving the planet? UL-E, bullshit standards to prove bullshit hype? Discover how certain sectors of our trade have been devastated by misnomers, & misinformation, learn what and how this could have been prevented.

(Date) Way past due

(Time) Anytime

(Presenters) CSA, ISA, and Manufacturers

I bet to gamble this would be a hit seminar, the highest attended even. But might be a conflict of interest.

One of the organizations that you portray as "do-nothings" is presenting a webinar on a subject dear to your rants:

The Art and Science of Getting Paid in a Tough Economy

Do you like to get paid? This webinar will discuss the many tools available to companies to ensure that they are paid in tough economic times from statutory protections to risk management practices which can greatly increase the likelihood of payment and decrease the amount of time spent chasing money for work already performed.

(Date) January 12, 2012

(Time) 2:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m. ET / 11:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon PT

(Presenter) Michael Pappas, Miles & Stockbridge P.C. For more information, contact ISA at (703) 836-4012 or info@signs.org.