If can be used for this why not for that?

[manuellynch]

If our LED retrofit system kit that sells for $75.00 can be used to retrofit a 2x4 fixture or light box...why can't they be used for cabinet signs more often?

We are 20% brighter and 50% lower power.

http://www.axiomled.com/AxiomLED/Examples/Entries/2012/3/12_AxiomLED_Fluorescent_Retrofit_Kits_in_West_Virginia_Gym.html

[alltex]

Are they outdoor/wet listed? Are they only good for a retro fit? Or can the be installed in a new cabinet without all the T8 components? I'm working up a quote for (x100-200) 2'x2' single sided light boxes. Would be interested if they,or another product you have can work for that application.

[Kev25A19]

Would it not need to be listed in the S.A.M as a sign component?

[manuellynch]

Would it not need to be listed in the S.A.M as a sign component?

The products are listed in the SAM: 1) AXLE6 LED modules, 2) PS60HS12 power supplies

[Kev25A19]

Well okeydokey!

[megavolt512]

Claims not convincing. We are 20% brighter and 50% lower power. Really????

Tests here in the cabinets do not support these numbers - either running at 0hrs or 26K hours. Please elaborate and share your calculations for "20% brighter and 50% lower power"

[manuellynch]

I guess our claims are convincing enough to the world's largest sign company - they use this product all the time.

[megavolt512]

Most of us who have been in the biz a while sell to the largest sign co's. Claims (whether true or false) definitely sell product. Has been this way since the beginning of time.

You said "We are 20% brighter and 50% lower power." But there are no details provided, such as your comparison product, and whether you are measuring power consumption at the power supply, or taking the theoretical efficacy from the Nichia chip datasheet.

If you are indeed 20% brighter and 50% lower power than what I am using now, I am ready to place a large order today.

Edited March 14, 2012 by megavolt512

[manuellynch]

Most of us who have been in the biz a while sell to the largest sign co's. Claims (whether true or false) definitely sell product. Has been this way since the beginning of time.

You said "We are 20% brighter and 50% lower power." But there are no details provided, such as your comparison product, and whether you are measuring power consumption at the power supply, or taking the theoretical efficacy from the Nichia chip datasheet.

Anyone can make claims. But someone making claims without details should not be surprised that people in the biz want more details.

Thanks for your input...but I have to share the Runion Energy who did this recent installation - SEE HERE - he actually works for a power company so I would trust that his claims of power consumed and light output are pretty valid.

And I think that the largest "company" in the world, the Catholic Church, wouldn't lie when they say that they replaced their fluorescent with our LED systems and reduced their overall facility power by 12%. If lighting is 20-25% of power consumption they saved 50% over fluorescent. Here is a video on what they did - SEE HERE

I do my best to always confirm and verify our product claims - after all, it was a product that I invented that was the first one used by James Broderick at the Department of Energy in comparing LED technology to CFL... so I always assumed we would be monitored.

[manuellynch]

If you are indeed 20% brighter and 50% lower power than what I am using now, I am ready to place a large order today.

John, we are currently backordered on the product 2-3 weeks due to high demand. But you can order online. If you have volumes over 5,000 feet let us know as the price drops dramatically.

[megavolt512]

All good and impressive. But the claims appear to be generalization (ie: 20% brighter). Was a measurement actually taken that showed the room illuminated 20% brighter with 50% of the power used?

Again, if true this is phenomenal - and if you post some harder data I'm sure sales would skyrocket. But the claims seem out of line with the actual performance your products are delivering in the tests here on this site.

[Kev25A19]

Gets the popcorn & a beer...

[manuellynch]

1. The parts being tested in the Great White Hope are our AXLE3 series and AXLE9 series - the part I am referring to is our AXLE6XB series. And please note that we treat the tests on this site very seriously and use it improve our product performance.

2. The Nichia LED we are using is indeed providing us the ability to provide phenomenal results. I think there is a reason Apple selected them for the iPad.

[megavolt512]

Your site quotes a similar "120 lumens/watt" for both products.

In the tests here on this site, none of your modules are producing anywhere close to 50 percent less power consumption and 20% more output than even the old 6500 snow white. And a hot cathode T8 will generally outperform the cold cathode setups used here on this site.

Not saying your claim this product is performing twice as well as your others is not true... It's just that such a bold claim begs for further explanation when it falls so far outside the performance of similar products from the same chip mfg. With all the problems identified with retrofit claims from many products, anyone but the most uninformed consumer will want data, not testimonials.

[manuellynch]

Ok John, sounds like you have no interest in trying the product. The reason I brought this up is because GE, USLED, and other solutions for fluorescent retrofit solutions are a joke and cost way too much.

Our new system is almost 20X brighter than systems of just awhile ago:

TESCO (Walmart of Europe) uses our product in their large cabinet signs. They used our AXLE3 product. http://www.axiomled.com/AxiomLED/Examples/Entries/2011/6/1_AxiomLED_Lights_Signage_for_TESCO_Stadium_in_Czech_Republic.html

We did an exhaustive study with an early version of the product at the main airport in Auckland New Zealand which just held the 3rd most watched sporting event in the world - Rugby World Cup - a lot of people walked right past a big bright Vodka sign that has been LEDs for several years without any issues.

http://www.axiomled.com/AxiomLED/Examples/Entries/2009/11/13_Auckland_Airport_replaces_fluorescent.html

So we can run test after test after test - but I think the best way for any sign company to prove if our products will work for them is to try them out.

You sell signs - you see what you want your customer to see. We make lights/guts - we just try to make them very high performance and very low cost. We will not try and be a sign company - that is what you do and what you specialize in... we specialize in electronic systems (and LEDs are just a small portion of what our company does - we even make power supplies for guitar amplifiers!)

So how about we agree that you try and convince Erik at Sign Syndicate to light box test of a 48" wide by 24 " tall box that compares fluorescent to other solutions. I am sure someone can offer to print a beautiful multi color digital display that shows color rendering capabilities, etc. And we will send samples of all of our products for testing... like we always have.

We make mistakes from time to time - but one this one I can tell you that some people are really reaping the rewards of progressively showing their customers the value of switching to the Axiom LED AXLE6XB technology.

Thanks for your comments John - I do appreciate and respect your expertise and questions.

[Kev25A19]

I actually have a case of F32T8's on deck to ship to Erik

(Erik, sorry this hasnt happened yet!)

Edited March 15, 2012 by Kev25A19

[Don Miner]

In desperate times, desperate men make desperate claims. Figures do not lie, but liars will figure.

[manuellynch]

In desperate times, desperate men make desperate claims. Figures do not lie, but liars will figure.

Now that is downright amusing. We are being used all over the world and I was wondering why not more usage in the USA... and you sell neon.

And we are desperate?

Thank you for the laugh - amused me.

I love neon but believe it is now a dying art and that is what makes it even more beautiful and artistic. But that is just my opinion.

People's success with our products - that is not an opinion - it is just a fact I was sharing.

[Erik Sine]

You guys are killin me!

I'll see about starting the long awaited sectioned out 4' wide by whatever and fill it with a few Fluor lamps T8/12, some tri's and some LED lines. Got a cool small littleTransco ballast for 8' of lamp to use.

Well do 8" deep or so for single face

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[megavolt512]

While the test might operate in a similar way, the needs for general lighting are somewhat different than signage applications - and this should probably be kept in mind while such a project progresses.

Lumen maintenance is far more important when you are lighting offices than channel letters or exposed outlines. Few people will complain if channel letters slowly dim to 25-30 percent over a few years. They may not even notice. But everyone will notice even a 15% drop in light output in an office or dwelling. This is one reason the lowly florescent tube is likely here to stay for a while. Inexpensive tubes can be changed out and recycled after several thousand hours, with the lumen level maintaining less than a 5% drop. This is the norm people will ultimately expect from general lighting products. Coves, or other applications were the lighting is more of a decorative factor are another story

But for general lighting, LED's and cold cathode likely fall short here with existing technology. Both likely drop below an acceptable level long before a ROI.

Edited March 15, 2012 by megavolt512

[Erik Sine]

This is a different thread than I though it was. I started "Project Facilities" where I planned to take light measurements from overhead. Measuring the Floor, and a standard Table top or work desk top, measuring at a specific distance off to the side, basically measuring the "usable" light instead of a sign surface. But this sounds like a test/comparison for our other site.

[Don Miner]

Manuel, I'm sorry if I upset you, glad if you are "amused". LED's stormed onto the scene, as the master cure-all for all lighting needs. Longer lasting, brighter and more economical to operate, etc. I have seen LED's burnt out after less than a year of use. Neon, when properly bent, processed and installed will last for 30 or more years. Operating expense has been proven by others, to be less for neon over the long haul. Both neon and LED's have their places. Peace, Don