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CEC to demand all Signs be dimmable?


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The word out on the street is that the California Energy Commission is looking to have controllers installed on exterior signs to have them dimmable. The other part to this is Power Source manufacturers are already being asked to find a solution. Now, without any proof behind it and purely speculation on my part but, the other word out on the street is that California Sign Association, UL, and a few other associations like ISA are for it, and backing the proposal.

What happened to the whacky Title 24? Was that not enough to demand sign controllers? Is this a offshoot to what I heard many years ago about the whacky Edison guys who wanted to install "Demand Response" modules on all signs including neon "open" signs so that if demand for electricity is high, the utility company has the control to shut down even "open signs". What happens to a business if this occurs? As if California isn't already whacky as it is. :crazy:

Anyone know if there is any validity to this Eco-Tyranny? The biggest obstacle is how can they dim Fluorescent lamps? Constant Current LEDs? Are they going to reload every Neon sign with more trannies for the dimming?

I hope this isn't true for our Sign Associations sake to just "Roll" with it and get rolled on once again. You know if it is true the associations are just going to make a profit farm out of it with more "Exclusive Programs". I want to see a fight, a bar room brawl from our leadership, I want to see them FIGHT for our liberties, free trade, and the right to prosper.

Maybe someone has a bit of knowledge about this.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • !llumenati

This will be interesting to see how it pans out.

In the city of Pittsburgh all High rise neon signs have to be dimmable. Camelot signs can chime in on this, He was contracted out to help solve a FUBAR up there. Maybe he can enlighten us all on what will happen if they do go through with the proposal.

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GOOD things happen for a reason......

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Almost all constant-current LED modules are fully dimmable, as are regular resistor based modules. The thing is that you don't dim LEDs by just reducing the voltage, since they require a minimum voltage just to turn on. What is typically used is either a dimmable LED power supply, or a separate device that goes between the power supply and the LEDs... it still supplies the full voltage to the LEDS but applies a PWM (pulse width modulation) signal across the wires that - in layman's terms - makes them appear dimmer while still receiving their full voltage.

It might require a re-design for some companies to make their modules forward-compatible with an industry standard dimmer device, but it's not a big thing. The problem becomes when you have multiple power supplies in the same set of letters that need to dim equally, and you need to network or tie all the PSUs to one master dimmer. It will require extra wiring between PSUs that could prove more complicated than some shops will want (or be able) to deal with - especially if the power supplies are internal to each letter. It would be too logistically difficult to force companies to retrofit these sorts of signs, to it would probably only apply to new installations... IF it ends up happening at all.

Edited by YYZ
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Interesting, thanks for that. I thought for sure CC LEDs were not dimmable.

But who the hell is going to want to dim their sign and create uneven lighting that can cause shadowing and make their business/identification less visible

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Interesting, thanks for that. I thought for sure CC LEDs were not dimmable.

A little OT, but always worth repeating to help people learn about LED modules...

You've probably tried adjusting the voltage usine the Axiom PSUs and noticed how other modules change in brightness. That is technically one way to dim resistor based LED modules, but the drop off happens quickly in the top range and under 8V the module probably doesn't light up at all. If you adjust voltage like this, any current regulated modules won't change in brightness until that bottom 'shelf' and then just drop off very quickly as well.

This is done so that regardless of voltage drop through a chain of modules, they'll all be the exact same brightness as long as they are above a certain minimum. People don't realize it, but they could be feeding 12.5V to the beginning of a string of modules and getting only 10V at the end (or less). So not only would resistor based modules be different in their brightness, they will also degrade differently.

The proper way to dim them is to use that PWM signal I mentioned earler (or other techniques) that still feed the LED its full voltage, but allow smooth dimming from 0-100%, like RGB systems or EMCs would have to in orders to mix colors properly.

There are times when we use resistors only, or even nothing but LEDs at all, but the prodct will be used in one specific way only and not give the sign company or end user any ability to misuse the product. Any variables like distance, number of LEDs or modules, voltage drop, etc... would be eliminated first and only then would we build/supply non current regulated products.

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  • Board Patron

I am very happy not to live, work or visit the Left Coast.

HAHA I love it!!!

Installation & Maintenance Services

Brian Phillips | expresssignandneon@sbcglobal.net | P. 812-882-3278

Express Sign & Neon | 119 S. 15th Street - Vincennes - IN 47591

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I am very happy not to live, work or visit the Left Coast.

I'm an east coast guy through and through, but this sounds like it's coming from someone who's never been there. Despite the negatives, the "Left Coast" has a whole lot of positives and it sure doesn't seem like Erik or any of the other Californians are pulling up roots and heading east. The pros still greatly outweigh the cons.

Edited by YYZ
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  • !llumenati

and I'm stuck in Jersey for the next 20 years. No matter where you live the only differnce is the temp and plants, Same houses, stores, corruption, people ect...

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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and I'm stuck in Jersey for the next 20 years. No matter where you live the only differnce is the temp and plants, Same houses, stores, corruption, people ect...

Sean;

You got it........ My family is a group of New York transplants and I have spent a fair amount of time back on the East Coast visiting. I still have family in New York from Islip, Bellrose, Buffalo and Rochester. Heck, I have some relatives in Patterson, New Jersey.

You are right, same shit....different scenery. And I would like to highlight "CORRUPTION". That ain't changing no matter where you live.

Dominic

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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  • !llumenati

You are right Sean about the signage on a building in Pittsburgh. The city or someone anyway wanted dimmers installed on the neon signage. There were several issues with the installation that prevented them from working. The home run length was too long in quite a few cases. This in itself caused issues. The transformer boxes were not vented. Nice ovens.

What they were trying to achieve was a more uniform brightness from summer, when the dimmer would be in effect, and winter when they would need all the light they could get because of the cold. That's about as far as I can go but suffice it to say that the dimming system was bypassed early on.

Dave

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If it's known in advance and dimming is part of the first time install, it's not really a problem for either neon or LED - it's when it has to go in after the fact and the system simply doesnt have the wiring, space or compatible components to make it happen. That's why I think *if* this sort of regulation ever gets implemented, it's on new installs only.

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This proposed dimmable sign business is because of blatant use of very bright electronic digital displays as seen on the freeways in Los Angeles. They are so damn bright that they ruin your night vision and make driving hazardous.

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You are right Sean about the signage on a building in Pittsburgh. The city or someone anyway wanted dimmers installed on the neon signage. There were several issues with the installation that prevented them from working. The home run length was too long in quite a few cases. This in itself caused issues. The transformer boxes were not vented. Nice ovens.

What they were trying to achieve was a more uniform brightness from summer, when the dimmer would be in effect, and winter when they would need all the light they could get because of the cold. That's about as far as I can go but suffice it to say that the dimming system was bypassed early on.

Dave

Did they have to use dimmers on red neon that remains the same brightness no matter the outside temp?
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  • !llumenati

You are right Sean about the signage on a building in Pittsburgh. The city or someone anyway wanted dimmers installed on the neon signage. There were several issues with the installation that prevented them from working. The home run length was too long in quite a few cases. This in itself caused issues. The transformer boxes were not vented. Nice ovens.

What they were trying to achieve was a more uniform brightness from summer, when the dimmer would be in effect, and winter when they would need all the light they could get because of the cold. That's about as far as I can go but suffice it to say that the dimming system was bypassed early on.

Dave

Did they have to use dimmers on red neon that remains the same brightness no matter the outside temp?

This was all done in white. You're right, red would have been a definate waste of time and money if done to accomodate for cold weather.

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<p>"The word out on the street is that the California Energy Commission is looking to have controllers installed on exterior signs to have them dimmable. The other part to this is Power Source manufacturers are already being asked to find a solution. Now, without any proof behind it and purely speculation on my part but, the other word out on the street is that California Sign Association, UL, and a few other associations like ISA are for it, and backing the proposal."</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Why would you make a statement like, and that the sign associations going to "roll" with it and turn it into a "profit farm", unless it was only to advance your agenda? Why do you expect a "fight, a bar room brawl" from a leadership you refuse to recognize, except to berate them?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Both CSA, Northwest Sign Council and ISA  have been both monitoring the issue as well as attending the workshops and meetings. It seems that the issue is a very small part of an overall energy conservation program. As it was explained to me, automatic dimming was only briefly mentioned, and was almost an afterthought compared to the other programs being discussed. </p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<div>Here is another observation from the meeting:</div>

<div> </div>

<div>"When automated demand response is initiated during an energy crisis, reduced power to the property service point will require sign power supplies to be capable of operating at the lower voltage causing temporary dimming.  It was stated that in SCE service territory, these events occur on an average of 15 times per year and last between 4 to 6 hours.  Dimming to meet power use goals cannot be the premise for retrofitting."</div>

<div> </div>

<div>I can assure you that these associations would oppose this legislation, if it were to come about, and would work towards an agreement that would be beneficial to all parties.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>What you do here is important to the industry as are our associations, and I applaud you for that. But let's not forget, sign associations work hard to advance our industry, regardless if you are a member or not.</div>

<div> </div>

<div> </div>

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I have to ask, and I'm not being rude.

Is this response yours or is this coming from someone else?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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All mine, except for the quotes. Not sure why it posted that way, guess it is my Mac.

It looks that way because it was cut and pasted from elsewhere and the tags were included.

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Awesome, I have a Mac too, have since 87' :thumbs:

"The word out on the street is that the California Energy Commission is looking to have controllers installed on exterior signs to have them dimmable. The other part to this is Power Source manufacturers are already being asked to find a solution. Now, without any proof behind it and purely speculation on my part but, the other word out on the street is that California Sign Association, UL, and a few other associations like ISA are for it, and backing the proposal

Why would you make a statement like, and that the sign associations going to "roll" with it and turn it into a "profit farm", unless it was only to advance your agenda? Why do you expect a "fight, a bar room brawl" from a leadership you refuse to recognize, except to berate them?

Both CSA, Northwest Sign Council and ISA have been both monitoring the issue as well as attending the workshops and meetings. It seems that the issue is a very small part of an overall energy conservation program. As it was explained to me, automatic dimming was only briefly mentioned, and was almost an afterthought compared to the other programs being discussed.

Here is another observation from the meeting:

When automated demand response is initiated during an energy crisis, reduced power to the property service point will require sign power supplies to be capable of operating at the lower voltage causing temporary dimming. It was stated that in SCE service territory, these events occur on an average of 15 times per year and last between 4 to 6 hours. Dimming to meet power use goals cannot be the premise for retrofitting.

I can assure you that these associations would oppose this legislation, if it were to come about, and would work towards an agreement that would be beneficial to all parties.

What you do here is important to the industry as are our associations, and I applaud you for that. But lets not forget, sign associations work hard to advance our industry, regardless if you are a member or not.

First, thanks for responding.

I made a statement like that because when it comes to Demand Response, Title 24, Mercury Ban on Lamps, associations are known to have just “rolled with it” and did very little to fight the problem. Instead it’s turned into a sort of self serving program for those in our industry to adapt, or join to adapt.

I’d like to see our associations join other special interest groups (like Icann, etc)that fight and oppose these meaningless proposals, not figure out a way to lower damage control. Start at the head and cut it off completely.

The general consensus is that our associations don’t fight. I want to see that, I think our industry needs leadership like that, and I think to see something like that more people would join up. It has happened before, but it’s just not as common as it once was.

My only agenda is “Liberty”, “Freedom” and to keep the government out of my way and out of my life. I don’t want a government putting another form of control over my life, nor do I want them to force me to add a controller component in my life or how I do business, how I advertise and when.

I think we can all see how petty that if this proposal does come down the pike we will all see it for what it really is. Of all the appliances/motors & lighting to worry about when it comes to quick energy conservation the best idea the CEC can come up with is to dim signs that advertise a business, a business that generates revenue and pays taxes? Really? Really???

This all sounds like another start of something someone wants to do all in the sake of “doing something” instead of “doing nothing”, not paying attention to what the regulation really does for the consumer and making government bigger.

I’ve sat in the room with the Edison guys and CSA, and ISA years ago. I’ll just say that in that room and the overall thought process was to “roll” with it, roll with whatever the utility guys wanted. As stupid as the words were that were coming out of the Edison guys mouth, there was only a straight face look coming from the sign association people as these stupid ideas were being voiced. Well except that of the electrical engineers that weren’t association member heads. Where was the discussion/debate? I know the room was irritated to hear such stupidity about shutting off a simple “Open Sign”

Let’s really look at what Demand Response and possibly this dim witted idea about dimming signs really is. It’s a lame idea looking to band-aid the real issue. California is one of the most populated stated there is that’s growing. Let’s get rid of the environmentalist wacko’s like the Imerc/Newoa / Sierra Club’s and let people and business’s prosper, let them have their right. Allow permits to be issued to give the option of building more power plants, do away with the Eco-Tyranny that prevents the feeding of demand, instead…. looking at ways to “conserv” in my state. It’s my damn right if I want to pay more for what I use whether it’s water, electricity etc, not the governments or some bureaucracy / environmental group.

Associations don’t always do what they do for the industry, sometime they do it for themselves or for individual interests and for their membership only, or exclusive for their members.

Rant over.

Anyway, I like a lot of Sign Association people but there is a reason for everything I do here even when it may appear to be unclear, or even strange. There is a reason why it’s here on the board early on. Let’s just say, there are some “concerned” association board members from “within” that don’t like what they are already hearing, nor the possible idea to back “the idea”.

If you say, the general idea behind the scene is a big “Hell No” and the opposition is there to hold the fort so to speak, I’m looking forward to hearing/reading/seeing it. If there is anything I can do to help, pull resources etc, let me know.

I hate when government wants to infringe, but sometimes I don’t know who’s worse, them or the people who stand aside and “do nothing”.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Heh, who wants to make a wager that they'll fold like lawn chairs and create a program out of this right before our very eyes. Any takers?

http://www.signs.org...spx?NewsID=2796

Will have to obtain the transcripts of these meetings

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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