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Controversy over electric signs splits industry - A NO Brainer!!!


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it's kind of expensive to buy an electric sign from one company, then have another company quote them out the install instead of a single company can can do all in one.

It's actually big business here in Texas. There are ESCL's that specialize only in installation.... they don't make or really sell anything. Other's only make things, don't do installation at all. I know parties in both camps. Many LESCL's here depend on sales from other entities both for new signs and repair work. I know at least one here who's entire business is service-work from an out-of-state sign service broker. They love it. Someone else deals with the customer, schedules the job, and collects the money. They only have to worry about the service itself. Checks arrive in a timely manner. Definitely not my business model, but if it works for someone else, let the free market work.

In reading the Statesman article (and even the Fastsigns link posted) I don't see the problem in need of a goverment solution. Fastsigns is selling signs (many likely UL), and subcontracting out an LESCL for the electrical work. "Electrical Work" as defined in Texas is:

"any labor or material used in installing, maintaining, or extending an electrical wiring system and the appurtenances, apparatus, or equipment used in connection with the use of electrical energy in, on, outside, or attached to a building, residence, structure, property, or premises."

Here, in the Statesman article, and everywhere else, I don't see anyone questioning that "electrical work" should only be done by an LESCL. No brainer. There is a clear public safety issue of government regulation of electric work. I don't hear anyone proposing otherwise. But do you guys really want government dictating sign sales? Continue this trend and you'll soon be notified you can't do your own deliveries unless you hold a delivery license, and hire a master delivery licensee. You can't recycle your aluminum scrap unless you hold a recycler's license, and have a master recycler licensee on the payroll.

Think I'm stretching the matter? Read this other article from the same paper as the original post here:

Once government gets involved, professions are difficult to deregulate

http://bit.ly/16SjabG

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Mega Volt, I don't see the Fastsigns franchiser's, or your shop being a real problem to the public. But this proposed change isn't just for Fastsigns franchise's. This will allow anyone to go out and sell electrical signs without a license.

The company I wrote about in this thread who was/is doing un licensed work. Has a facility, bucket truck, and goes out and installs signs illegally. I have no clue about their: expertise level, insurance, fabrication capabilities. All I know is they are using a Air conditioning license number. And their install techs in the field, don't carry required State license's to install electrical signs.

That's why the law is on the books. How do you propose a system, that guarantees an un licensed shop, uses licensed shops for; designing, installing, verifying the fabrication meets code, and proper permits are secured?

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I get that the statesmen article is somewhat, well.....off.

In a lot of ways, it's not. FastSigns and Sign A Rama's in the past and I even see misleading statements still in their websites that suggest that they do all phases, and they just about promote that and not let the end user know that only some of their franchises are licensed contractors. There has had to have been some sort of inner circle dialogue that told franchises it's okay to "sub-contract". It's obvious when you view their general website, maybe it's changed in recent years since a few busts. There a few franchises who still practice this today without a license here in San Diego. The Franchise that I recorded doing illegal installs and work now has a license, good for him, now he's legal and the end user is protected as well as himself from an end user.

On gov regulation, I personally like moderate amounts of regulation.

Whatever you do in you own home is your own business. As soon as you step out that door in the general public then we do need some general safety, for the good of the public, i.e. driver's license, food handler's card, contractors licenses, etc. Those I think are some good seeds of moderate regulation but we also don't need license stacked on top of license, stacked on top of license, or regulation where it becomes to expansive and intrusive. It's out there, it's in my state and it drives costs up and business's leave.

If Non-illuminated/non-electrical licensed sign shops want to build electrical signs, and they can do it safe by wither following the NEC, or a listed lab, then that's their right. It's just as ridiculous to say other wise as asking a Neon bender that he needs to be UL for his custom lamps, oops...did I just say that?

But I'm pretty sure it is more expensive for a retail shop to have his sign built by one company (i.e. channel letters, have it shipped in, and have it installed by another). A lot of times it can be a non-licensed shop buying from a wholesaler which is just stacking profit on top of profit, then the payment to the company who will be installing it. A lot of times that channel letter sign is just a piece of junk built from the the cheapest components on the market, usually $1modules and they only get a cheap 1 year warranty. A local quality shop who would take on the complete job (who's name is on it) will sometimes offer a longer warranty and use the better components, maybe not always use LEDs as the answer to everything? But since it's been shipped, and changing from hands to hands, not all shops are well qualified to install anything other than LEDs and well you know. Quality control takes a shit and our industry's face takes the hit.

I just have a feeling somewhere, and I've already discussed my views on protecting the consumer, this is a doorway to something else. I have a feeling there will be a push for changing the existing laws to allow sub-contracting by unlicensed shops. It's a feeling, and this may be the first doorway. But again, if that's what the people want, then power to the people. But it can be a mess, as the way it's written now. If it's changed what will the limits of sub-contracting be? Free for all? Anarchy?

It's a good topic.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Let me pitch in again from the point of view of a company that is FORCED to provide an electrical sign against its will. The Los Angeles School District does this, for instance. The majority of the work (but not the money), is in ADA signs, our specialty. Although there is no special contractors license for that (other than the normal sign contractors license), it requires a huge amount of detailed knowledge, to lay out, make and install the signs. Electrical companies don't know these rules, but if they get the job, they vend out that part, and often just to a cheap wholesaler who doesn't really know the rules, either. The electric sign installers usually don't know the installation rules. So, the tendency is to give the job to a company like ours, and force us to purchase the electrical sign, and if its a digital message board, install it as well. We argue in vain. We are then the bank, spending up to $50,000 of a $75,000 contract purchasing the sign, about which we understand NOTHING! We also have hire crane operators to lift it in place, and an electrician to put in the electrical hookup. We usually barely break even. Then WE have to figure out how to train the school district how to operate the sign. They refuse to do it on line with the manufacturer. We must send someone in person. And then, if the sign malfunctions, we get the call. Often, the manufacturer argues with us that they don't think it's the sign, but the installation or operation. We lose again. We have to pay someone to come out. This happened to us with a sign for a park, and it was a nightmare that happened over several years, and cost a bundle.

Our other problem is that I don't feel, when it's not a digital board but illuminated letters or post and panel, that we have the expertise ourselves to judge whether we are hiring a quality company to do the work. Just having a license does not always mean you are doing really good work, and we have been caught with shoddy electrical work that we then had to take responsibility for. Leave it to the experts!!

In the meantime, we often go out to locations to do fix up work, or new buildings on sites where an electrical company "did" the ADA signs, and see nothing but legal errors and inferior manufacture, since they knew no better.

That is why I think these contracts should be broken up, and electrical signs and large monument signs should go to a company that legally provides and specializes in them. If they want to divvy up the manufacturing and the licensed install, OK, but they should both be companies that are specialists in these sign. They have the type of financing available to carry them financially for a year. Let us have the contract for the ADA signs. We know what we are doing, do it well, and are happy to guarantee and support our work.

And yes, I know there are big FastSigns that have developed over the years and know what they are doing, and are properly licensed to do it. However, back when things were just starting off with franchisees, they often were essentially bootlegging all kinds of installation they didn't understand, although sometimes they did get the specialty license, and in the meantime, Worker's Comp was giving them retail rates for their workers, while we paid much higher rates for the same work. Those workers would clerk in the front, and then go out the back door with a ladder in a pickup, and the rates would stay the same.

Thanks for letting me sound off!

Edited by SharonToji
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Mega Volt, I don't see the Fastsigns franchiser's, or your shop being a real problem to the public. But this proposed change isn't just for Fastsigns franchise's. This will allow anyone to go out and sell electrical signs without a license.

Selling a sign is not "electrical work" as defined by the Texas Occupations Code. Nor is designing the non-electrical or non-mechanical parts of an electric sign (ie: size, font, artwork, etc.) This was clarified last year at the TDLR board meeting.

The company I wrote about in this thread who was/is doing un licensed work. Has a facility, bucket truck, and goes out and installs signs illegally. I have no clue about their: expertise level, insurance, fabrication capabilities. All I know is they are using a Air conditioning license number. And their install techs in the field, don't carry required State license's to install electrical signs.

So they are doing "electrical work" without the correct licenses. Everyone agrees: against the law. TDLR is not enforcing the law that's already here.

That's why the law is on the books. How do you propose a system, that guarantees an un licensed shop, uses licensed shops for; designing, installing, verifying the fabrication meets code, and proper permits are secured?

By only allowing LESC's to perform or permit electrical sign work in the first place, and the sign gets inspected. There's no system to propose - this is already the way it works everywhere in Texas.

Banning the mere selling of electric signs without an LESC license effectively makes sign wholesaling illegal. As well as buying/selling across state lines unless your state holds a reciprocity agreement. You're likely breaking the law yourself if you are purchasing channel letters from a wholesaler that doesn't hold an LESC in Texas. The way the law is worded currently, even small signs out of a catalog - such as a lighted exit sign - can only be offered for sale by a LESC?

I don't think anyone believes that was the intent of the law. Probably why TDLR doesn't seem to have time to police electrical work anymore?

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If you sell electric signs you probably design electric signs. Installing them should probably require some knowledge also. If a company isn't licensed do they just wing it on the pricing and then underpay those who are licensed?

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It's just as ridiculous to say other wise as asking a Neon bender that he needs to be UL for his custom lamps, oops...did I just say that?

Wanted to add a tidbit to that comment....

Back sometime in the 1990's, when UL was really sending their tentacles out into the neon industry, I had an interesting conversation with Paul Davis (who wrote the sign electrical column for SOT at the time). He told me UL was really wanting to "list" neon tubes... but they were unable to do it. The reason being that light bulbs are not listed. Look on any incandescent of florescent lamp. No UL... except maybe the recent "green" certification.

Light bulbs are not listed... but their sockets, wiring, and supply systems are. (Complete CFL fixtures with a bulb and ballast and internal wiring are another matter. ) One big reason is that any light source can fail, burn out, break, etc. The electrical system supporting it must be able to provide for this in a safe manner. Even the finest made neon tube or HO lamp can be broken with an impact from hail, kid with a brick, etc. LED's can always be shorted out in electrolyte-rich water that collects inside signs. Every system must be able to account for this.

There's certainly a lot of crappy neon folks have made... but tracing back through a complete system it is not the source of a safety issue. The wiring system is. Same with an LED or HO florescent sign cabinet. If one light source shorts out or fails.. it is the wiring system that bears responsibility as this is a situation to be expected and planned for in any system. Electronic FL/LED ballasts and SGFP neon transformers have mostly made this a non-issue... but it's part of why individual light sources are not part of the NEC or listing.

There is no mention at all in the NEC (or UL) on how to make a neon tube... or any other light source. There is no question on any electrician test, nor (at least in the US) rules or even guidelines on how to build a light bulb, neon tube, or LED.

Probably rambling to make a simple point... but that's why neon tubes are not "listed".

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Interesting info for sure, and thx for adding . I was just taking a shot under my breath at the International Sign Association who was trying to Neon to become listed at the last NEC panel :) My questions still to this day has have never been answered by them, curious really. http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5371-nec-for-electric-signs-approvals-rejections-revisals/'>http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5371-nec-for-electric-signs-approvals-rejections-revisals/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Someone wrote to me and said that projects that are mostly (not money wise, but quantity wise) architectural, specifically ADA and even just one electrical sign ought to be done by electrical company, with the ADA signs subbed out. The implication was that we should not bid on those jobs, but leave it to the electrical companies.

1. Often, the electrical sign is ADDED after the job is already started. This happens with the school jobs all the time. They get in the middle of the job, and decide they want a big digital message sign. We already have the contract. We have even had a school decide they wanted to illuminate metal letters AFTER they were installed on the wall! The contract called for non-illuminated letters. They refuse to divide the contract, but insist that we have to accept change order, whether we want to or not. Believe me, we have used every argument in the book, including that we don't have the proper license. Their answer -- we will sue you for breaking the contract if you refuse a construction directive and a change order.

2. If the sign is a digital board, it is shipped from elsewhere, in the case of LAUSD, from Florida. They insist that the electrical installer (the person who adds the "box" and then plugs it in), is our tiered sub. Again, not our choice, and we get stuck if something goes wrong. Last time, it cost us about $7000 that we did not get reimbursed for. We do not make money on these signs, and would prefer they be handled 100 percent by an electrical contractor, or even by two -- one to fabricate and one to install -- but not by us.

3. Although I realize that there is no immediate danger like fire if the ADA signs are installed incorrectly (or are not even technically correct when fabricated), if they are wrong, they can actually be dangerous for people with vision impairments. On top of that, the electrical companies do not have a clue when choosing where to purchase the signs. They subject the owners to possible expensive lawsuits, in addition to shorting the students, staff and parents with disabilities. The rules are very detailed and complex. If someone cares to learn them and take them seriously, great. I don't care what kind of sign shop they are. Or if they want to vend them out, then vend to a local company that will also install, and choose that company very carefully. But the only shops that should be fabricating or installing ADA signs should be people who care enough to understand the rules and follow them.

Sharon Toji

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People put to much faith in a license. Its just a piece of paper much like a UL sticker. Just because you have one doesn't mean you'll do it right and just because you don't have one doesn't mean you'll do it wrong.

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It maybe just a piece of paper but I think in the clients eyes it helps to weed out who to choose and who to gloss over. Our company has a electrical license and we pay to be U.L., so our business is obligated to follow and stick to certain standards, I'm also sure if those standards are not met by the way we build a sign or treat a contract we'll loose our license's.

We have a lot of illegal sign shops that operate here, what standards do they operate under?

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To reiterate the reasoning behind licensing here in California. The CSLB has made it abundantly clear that C-61 sub-classifications CANNOT contract "UP" They have only taken the law portion of the test and not the trade portion. In this case electrical. The logic is the seller CONTRACTUALLY is obligated to be responsible for the installation of the sign. If a sub class licensee or non license shop sells and install or SUB-CONTRACTS to be installed a sign they are expected to be knowledgeable and trained to "oversee" the job. This seems to be the case in Texas also. The larger issue, as stated previously, is liability and insurance. Fire and failure do happen even to properly licensed contractors. I know that my insurance company wants to know EXACTLY what i'm doing outside of my shop and i pay accordingly. The situation with those that "subcontract" their install is that they are not telling their insurance company the whole story when it comes to liability. If the FastSigns in Texas are being truthful with their broker about the scope of what they may be doing i suspect they would pay much higher rates.

Here in California it is legal to sell an electric sign over the counter and leave it up to the owner to find a qualified installer. It is also legal for a non licensed shop owner to sub contract that sign installation but only if it is a joint agreement where the properly licensed company is on the contract. This allows the consumer to have legal recourse against both parties. Again i would reiterate they should be telling their insurance brokers exactly what they are doing and getting additional insured certificates from the installer. This, however, let's the insurance company know what you are involved in which may not be what you want.

To a previous post regarding being a D-42 licensee who's asked to do electric work after a contract has been written. The easiest solution to that is to upgrade to a C-45 and all of the expensive issues that come with that. Absent that, i would insist that the District sign a contract with a qualified licensee period. State license code trumps any architects or owners specifications.

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Last I heard and maybe it's changed, is that the non-licensed shop (broker) had to have the sign user sign the contract of the licensed sign co and the non-licensed shop had to register as a "Salesman" for the contractor. But this was years ago.

I also could never get a straight answer from the CSLB if it was legal for the non or lower tier contractor to "upsize" so to speak. I didn't think you could but even when speaking to an "enforcement" side Supervisor, still the water was murky with no real definite answer. Now that I think about it, there was a LOT of questions I had about the CA code I could never get answers on.

But again, this was years ago and so much changes. Now I hear you have to show proof of working capital before being issued a lic among other things

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I contract here in California and hold both C-10 and C-45 licenses. I also have a state certified electrician license that requires me to hold another card in my wallet.

I don't find the whole concept of gaining the skill necessary, obtaining a license and then performing work as a contractor too much of an over reach. I work for one National Sign company, who does pay on time, and provide electrical (C-10) service to those job sites that C-45 contractor subs are not allowed to complete when it crosses with the sign sector. Again, they don't feel it is an over reach and neither do I.

But Erik nailed it when he said that "Title 24" here in California is definitely a government over reach. It is a ridiculous set of rules that slows down a job and makes the costs rise accordingly.

But I guess you have to take the good with the bad in any industry.

Best

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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  • 4 weeks later...

Here's the update.

It's currently going thru the house and senate of Texas and this has nothing to do with selling say an "Open" sign. Any sign company can engage in those sales. This has EVERYTHING to do with the Sales, Maintain, and Installation of Electric signs. They are trying to make it so that unlicensed sign companies can complete a sale that involves the installation, and maintenance, of electric sign contracts.

In other words, unlicensed contractors might be able to subcontract if they get their way in the state of Texas.

ISA is positioned where on this?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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It's a little more complicated than that.

First off, there is no "exception" in the 2005 law for portable or "OPEN" signs, premade UL signs, exit signs, LED rope lights, etc.. ALL electric signs. If they mean otherwise, it is not clarified in the occupations code at all. In fact, current wording states "designing or manufacturing a neon tube" is sign electrical work requiring an electrical sign contractor's license and a master electrician on the payroll. There is then an exemption for "manufacturing" of signs, in which the entire section does not apply - so the current language of the law is a mess and needs to be clarified and streamlined. This is not limited to neon. ANY electric sign, even photovoltaic or battery powered. Stationary or portable. Big or small.

Second, no one is (or was) proposing anyone can perform sign electric work (including maintenance) without a license to do such work. It's a question of subcontracting - something essential in a free and competitive market. You don't have to go to a master plumber to buy plumbing fixtures or design a bathroom. Or a master electrician to buy light fixtures. You don't even have to go to a physician to buy an MRI machine. The proposed clarification ONLY involves the "sale" or "offer to sell" of an electric sign, when any electrical work is done by a licensed electrical contractor.

When a general contractor builds a house, they subcontract electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and other trades. Much more involved than Fastsigns selling a UL sign and contracting a LESC to do the electrical work.

The thing is, regulating the "sale" was never intended. Even William Muntz of TDLR called this a "quirk" in the 2005 wording. HB 1352 passed by a margin of 133 to 7 - all 7 dissenters I think were democrats of smaller districts. The 2005 language largely flew under the radar, with few folks paying much attention until TDLR forced the issue by starting stealth raids on anyone advertising electric signs for sale, even on a website. Presumably they targeted only Texas based companies, not the many others selling signs from other states (and in the case of neon, from overseas) as they don't have jurisdiction.

But again, HB 1352 was never about promoting unlicensed electrical work of ANY kind. It was about the "sale" only, or "offer to sell". If anything, this bill has strengthened electrical safety by specifically saying even sellers of electric signs must use a Texas licensed electrical sign contractor for any electrical work.

There is a lot of misinformation going around regarding HB1352. Rather than take my word for it, I'd suggest anyone with doubts read the actual bill that passed:

ftp://ftp.legis.state.tx.us/bills/83R/billtext/html/house_bills/HB01300_HB01399/HB01352I.htm

Scroll down to the underlined text. This is the only thing changed by the bill.

Here's the update.

It's currently going thru the house and senate of Texas and this has nothing to do with selling say an "Open" sign. Any sign company can engage in those sales. This has EVERYTHING to do with the Sales, Maintain, and Installation of Electric signs. They are trying to make it so that unlicensed sign companies can complete a sale that involves the installation, and maintenance, of electric sign contracts.

In other words, unlicensed contractors might be able to subcontract if they get their way in the state of Texas.

ISA is positioned where on this?

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Let's get the facts straight...Anyone can sell any listed electrical product in Texas without a license... including a sign. You must have an elecrical contractors license or an electrical sign contractors license to manufacture, install or service an electric sign or to even offer to perform any of these functions (bid or contract to perform these functions). You can currently sell a LISTED sign to an end user and provide them a list of preferred licensed installers that he can choose from. This way the end user is assured of getting a competitive price on their sign as well as a competitive price for the installation. No need to mark up the install. If the seller offers to perform elecrical work or electrical sign work with or without a license they are considered a contractor. Contractors MUST BE LICENSED. In addition elecrical signs must be designed by a master electrician or a master sign electrician if manufactured in Texas. There have been complaints from unlicensed companies about the law requiring them to hire a responsible person (a master electrician or master sign electrician to make sure things are done right and to serve as their master of record). NOW HEAR THIS...the law says they can hire a master full time, part time or even seasonally if they only do a small number of signs for a specific project. Oh and keep in mind their are approx, 6,000 masters not currently serving as masters of record for anyone. I hope you are starting to see the picture, I only wish some of the Texas legislators could. Unlicensed persons, agents or companies 1. They don't want to have an employee because they might have to contribute to their social security, provide them benefits or provide liability. 2. They don't want the responsibility for permitting or making sure the job is done to code. 3. They want to mark the job up so they can hide their profit and blame to licensed contractor for the cost of the job. 4. They don't want to answer to the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation when a complaint is filed (because the exemption they are seeking would shift all the burden to the licensed contractor performing the installation for them, even if their specifications are inadequate, incompetent or faulty by engineering, design or hardware deficiencies. 5. It must be the cost of license. Wow it is $115.00 annually. I believe even the smallest of sign shops can afford that.

My concern has always been safety and accountability to the end user and the public by supporting the current law as written and interpreted. I might also mention that the original interpretation of the law was wrong when TDLR originally allowed non-licensed individuals, agents and companies to offer to perform this type of contracting without a license so long as they used someone else to do the electrical work besides themselves. Through the electrical advisory board, members of TDLR staff and by consulting with the office of the Texas Attorny General it was determined that this was an incorrect interpretation and those that had been permitted to contract the sell and installation of signs were given over a year to comply with the correct interpretation of getting a contractors license. I would say this is most accomodating. NOW GET THIS...TDLR testifies during committee hearings of the House Licensing and Regulatory Committee that if passed this proposed HB 1352 will allow their original incorrect interpretation to become correct. Mandating and suggesting language for a law via endorsement of a specific bill rather that simply answering direct questions as the agency expert may border on unethical procedural practices by a regulatory body charged with licensing and enforcement of the law.

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I got my info straight from TSA. I wanted to be clear that it's not illegal for a sign company to sell a sign over the counter to a client, and that this is all about "Subcontracting".

In my opinion, if this passes it further degrades the purpose of protecting those involved (contractor and consumer). People can use the example and can say there is more involved in GC's i.e. house subcontracting, and fastsigns subbing out a installation to a licensed installer is so small, but where does it end? The line in the sand is getting erased and pushed further back.

It's a little more complicated than that.

First off, there is no "exception" in the 2005 law for portable or "OPEN" signs, premade UL signs, exit signs, LED rope lights, etc.. ALL electric signs. If they mean otherwise, it is not clarified in the occupations code at all. In fact, current wording states "designing or manufacturing a neon tube" is sign electrical work requiring an electrical sign contractor's license and a master electrician on the payroll. There is then an exemption for "manufacturing" of signs, in which the entire section does not apply - so the current language of the law is a mess and needs to be clarified and streamlined. This is not limited to neon. ANY electric sign, even photovoltaic or battery powered. Stationary or portable. Big or small.

Second, no one is (or was) proposing anyone can perform sign electric work (including maintenance) without a license to do such work. It's a question of subcontracting - something essential in a free and competitive market. You don't have to go to a master plumber to buy plumbing fixtures or design a bathroom. Or a master electrician to buy light fixtures. You don't even have to go to a physician to buy an MRI machine. The proposed clarification ONLY involves the "sale" or "offer to sell" of an electric sign, when any electrical work is done by a licensed electrical contractor.

When a general contractor builds a house, they subcontract electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and other trades. Much more involved than Fastsigns selling a UL sign and contracting a LESC to do the electrical work.

The thing is, regulating the "sale" was never intended. Even William Muntz of TDLR called this a "quirk" in the 2005 wording. HB 1352 passed by a margin of 133 to 7 - all 7 dissenters I think were democrats of smaller districts. The 2005 language largely flew under the radar, with few folks paying much attention until TDLR forced the issue by starting stealth raids on anyone advertising electric signs for sale, even on a website. Presumably they targeted only Texas based companies, not the many others selling signs from other states (and in the case of neon, from overseas) as they don't have jurisdiction.

But again, HB 1352 was never about promoting unlicensed electrical work of ANY kind. It was about the "sale" only, or "offer to sell". If anything, this bill has strengthened electrical safety by specifically saying even sellers of electric signs must use a Texas licensed electrical sign contractor for any electrical work.

There is a lot of misinformation going around regarding HB1352. Rather than take my word for it, I'd suggest anyone with doubts read the actual bill that passed:

ftp://ftp.legis.state.tx.us/bills/83R/billtext/html/house_bills/HB01300_HB01399/HB01352I.htm

Scroll down to the underlined text. This is the only thing changed by the bill.

Here's the update.

It's currently going thru the house and senate of Texas and this has nothing to do with selling say an "Open" sign. Any sign company can engage in those sales. This has EVERYTHING to do with the Sales, Maintain, and Installation of Electric signs. They are trying to make it so that unlicensed sign companies can complete a sale that involves the installation, and maintenance, of electric sign contracts.

In other words, unlicensed contractors might be able to subcontract if they get their way in the state of Texas.

ISA is positioned where on this?

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Heh, posted at the same time.

Thanks for that clarification Lonnie! And welcome to the SS

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Where are you getting this information from? This is not in the language of the Texas Occupations Code Sec. 1305 (with regards to electric signs) and is certainly not how TDLR is interpreting it.

Let's get the facts straight...Anyone can sell any listed electrical product in Texas without a license... including a sign. You must have an elecrical contractors license or an electrical sign contractors license to manufacture, install or service an electric sign or to even offer to perform any of these functions (bid or contract to perform these functions). You can currently sell a LISTED sign to an end user and provide them a list of preferred licensed installers that he can choose from.

Edited by megavolt512
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Just looked at Sec 1305 and the Tx Administrative Code again. I see no exemption for selling "listed" signs at all. Nearly all electrical equipment (listed or not) can already be sold without being an electrical contractor. It is only electric signs that are the issue at hand.

"Manufacturing" electric signs is specifically exempted in 1305.003(7). TDLR clarified last year this exemption is ONLY for manufacturers, and it will not be allowed if any elecrical work such as installation is offered as part of the sale.

If you are offering to sell electric signs (listed or not) you did not manufacture yourself, you are breaking the law as it is currently written and being interpreted. Providing a specific list of contractors when you are not one yourself may be a violation as well. There is also no exemption for "over the counter" or catalog/mail order sales.

Again, a lot of misinformation floating around. Please read the actual law:

Texas Occupations Code Sec 1305 - Electricians (in it's entirety):

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/OC/htm/OC.1305.htm


Let's get the facts straight...Anyone can sell any listed electrical product in Texas without a license... including a sign. You must have an elecrical contractors license or an electrical sign contractors license to manufacture, install or service an electric sign or to even offer to perform any of these functions (bid or contract to perform these functions). You can currently sell a LISTED sign to an end user and provide them a list of preferred licensed installers that he can choose from.

Edited by megavolt512
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Lonnie, great points!

Something else real messed up in the State of Texas. There is no General Contractor License. No home builder License either. Throw in no; framing, foundation, or roofing license's.

One thing on the un licensed sign shops. I seriously doubt their insurance company knows they're selling electrical signs. Once you step into this industry. Your workers comp will be adjusted as well as general liability and auto policies. They're are plenty of "banner" shops with bucket trucks running around my area. They're swapping faces on cabinets, which is technically illegal.

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Let me explain a few items...

I was part of the electrical sign industry that helped integrate components of the original law and the Manufacturers Exemption was never intended as a method to exempt the sell or manufacturing processes associated with ordinary manufacturing of regular electrical products including signs. This exemption was specifically written to address the complicated and precision manufacturing, calibration, installation and servicing of special proprietary electrical products such as switch gears, integrated electrical circuitry and other specialized electric products that required proprietary and often guarded knowledge to safely and adequately install, service, calibrate and install. It is in the records if you care to research...

TDLR cannot prohibit the sell of a listed electrical product, otherwise folks would have a hard time buying those open signs at Sam's Club... or those work lights at Lowe's and Home Depot. This goes for ANY ELECTRICAL PRODUCT WHICH MEETS THE CURRENT LISTING STANDARD IT HAS BE TESTED FOR by a NRTL (National Recognized Testing Laboratory).

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