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Channel letter retrofits.


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When retrofitting a channel letter with leds, does the condition of the surface of the sides and back of the can matter much? An led's light goes pretty much where you point it, and so I would expect that the reflectivity of the insides of the can matter less, but is that really the case? Does having a clean, reflective surface inside the can make the letter appreciably brighter?

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Think of it like this ---- if the led you chose has a 120 angle on it, stuck back in a 4-5inch letter - think of the amount of light that is bouncing off the walls rather than the face? So - yes it does matter.

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Couldn't sell your client on a proven light source that is efficient, bright and more green than led - NEON?

Just curious why a company called Millenneon would sell an led refit.

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Couldn't sell your client on a proven light source that is efficient, bright and more green than led - NEON?

Just curious why a company called Millenneon would sell an led refit.

I like neon, but the purpose of my business is not to make neon, the purpose of my business is to make money. You can run your business as you choose and I'll do the same.

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Thats fine. Just had me curious since I see many neon to led conversions that end up re-installing neon when the sign owner realises that they made the wrong choice in going led, be it brightness or longevity claims that were too good to be true.

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Do clean out the interior of the letter and paint it white if you can. Makes a big difference. Light also bounces of the face and back into the can. It will take on some of the color of the dirt and get absorbed by it.

With today's led's you won't see any inferior brightness when compared to neon. I have seen big changes in the last 2 years as far as brightness of led's. And, if you don't have your own neon bender, it's a no-brainer to retrofit to led's. It's getting harder to get wholesale neon and the quality has deteriorated over the past 10 years. I know of 2 benders that have retired and their apprentices have taken over. Another one drives a school bus and only works now and then.

Neon is great and I hate to see benders out of work but at the end of the day we have to make a living by doing what's best for our companies.

We are strictly wholesale to the trade and went LED over 5 years ago. No regrets what so ever. No complaints and no breakage in shipping. Like I said, I have seen a big improvement in brightness in that past 2 years.

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Thats fine. Just had me curious since I see many neon to led conversions that end up re-installing neon when the sign owner realises that they made the wrong choice in going led, be it brightness or longevity claims that were too good to be true.

I have not seen or heard of such a thing.

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Thats fine. Just had me curious since I see many neon to led conversions that end up re-installing neon when the sign owner realises that they made the wrong choice in going led, be it brightness or longevity claims that were too good to be true.

I have not seen or heard of such a thing.

Actually I've seen a lot of it.

I had a conversation with a installer at ISA who installs signs for a large craft store all over the east coast (200+ locations)like Michaels who dropped all specs of LEDs and went back to neon.

Had a conversation with the owner of Thomasville furniture who has stores in 3 states on the west coast. Started with neon and caught the hype by their former sign company who marketed LEDs in retrofitting all existing signs. Now he wants nothing to do with LEDs in wall signs or pylon signs.

Conversation with a few property managers here in SoCal also prefer Neon for channel letters due to the spotting and poor performance just after a couple of years of using LEDs, now the shopping center looks like crap.

Chase bank went back to Neon from LED only, now it's neon for large LED for small.

But as Gerald stated it depends on what and who you have to work with, bad bender then it's understandable.

It should be about understanding the light sources yourself, educating the client and providing them all the options. It's backwards to retrofit red neon to red LEDs, something that does not degrade in light output to something that does. I have yet to see any ROI numbers where it makes sense to retrofit on a conventional sign with typical access.

Retrofits only makes sense if access is hard or difficult, or shitty neon benders. Otherwise it's spend more and get less in return, well for the client anyway. Sure, we can profit. If the client is hell bent on wanting to claim green or saving the planet no matter what then there is no point in educating ignorance and just give what they want.

When it comes to new signs i've also seen a jump back to neon. I sell supplies to sign shops and there has been a huge jump in demand for neon back to channel letters by the end client and not the sign shop subbing out to wholesalers. I mean who would not want to spec a portion of a job that's fast, and requires no skill to install in the field? Hell paying for low skill and labor is less. But is or was it the best choice for that sign and according to the environment? Can you give at least a 5 year electrical warranty that also covers labor to change out the components you choose for your signs that you sell to your client? These are questions a sign shop needs to answer, instead of buying a bunch of dollar modules collecting on the final invoice and disappearing

I like both light sources, it just depends on the application itself, LEDs shouldn't be used or thought of as a wonder product for all phases.

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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I have never seen anyone going from Neon to led back to neon, if the led retrofit was done with any QUALITY, time tested parts there shouldnt be a problem. I Like them both and am unbiased. Anyone else who is unbiased should agree.

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Well then, let's look at it this way.

How many shops have you seen go through many different LED manufacturers? For their signs, how many have stuck with the same "time tested product" LED line? How many times have you seen a re-retrofit LED jobs. I've walked through many shops here in so cal, all the shops have gone through various makes and models. Now the same can be said about neon benders who have gone through some shops....like LEDs...some just suck!!!!

"Retrofit" is the purpose to save money somewhere, and these days, to trade one "time tested" light source for another? Why would you do that?

If you're having service issues with say neon channel letters, then it's much cheaper for the client to retrofit it with the same light source (even better phosphor) and correct the poor installation, re-engineer the neon circuit make the secondaries shorter make sure no primary is laying on any secondary, test the actual load etc etc. Change 60ma systems to 30ma if it's not needed. That's big savings in service for the client!

Again, why would you trade a light source like red clear neon pumped lamps, something that's just gas and glass and does not degrade in light last 40+ years to say red LEDs that do degrade on a regular basis?

If there is a benefit in savings to retrofit and trade out one for another, I'd like to see it, I'd like to see the numbers because I can't find it unless it's a remote location where access is hard or the environment is so harsh you must use another, i.e. LEDs dying in Arizona or Neon dim in Alaska. I've done many ROI figures here on the SS with Neon , Fluorescent and LEDs, along with electrical engineers and I can't find the immediate upfront savings in only a few years ROI that saves the client money on typical conventional location signs with typical access. But the Marketeers like Magic Mouth can tell you they can, and save 80% in energy costs, and that retrofitting is "More Efficient"

But it's applicable under conditions then yes it can makes sense.

For new signs I like both light sources too, and have used both. But according to my local, I have very good Neon benders, my temps are mainly 70F and unless access is hard, letters are not big enough for Neon components, it makes sense to use neon and because I "know" how to install it. If size matters, or access then so be it. I've guaranteed both Neon and LED signs for 5 years labor included, but these are news signs.

Being in this industry I can't see ever selling anyone (end client) on a retrofit job from one light source to another under the guise of "Green", "Saving the Planet", or "Saving Money" "Energy Efficient (myth)" it's not there, at least the ROI is not in a few years, what I see with running the numbers is 15 to 40+ years.

It's not just me saying this, it's electrical engineers too. In no way am I biased, I use to be, but I see the benefits of LEDs

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Well then, let's look at it this way.

How many shops have you seen go through many different LED manufacturers? For their signs, how many have stuck with the same "time tested product" LED line? How many times have you seen a re-retrofit LED jobs. I walk through many shops here in so cal, all the shops have go through various makes and models. Now the same can be said about neon benders, some like...LEDs just suck.

"Retrofit" is the purpose to save money somewhere, and these days, to trade one "time tested" light source for another? Why would you do that?

If you're having service issues with say neon channel letters, then it's much cheaper for the client to retrofit it with the same light source (even better phosphor) and correct the poor installation, re-engineer the neon circuit make the secondaries shorter make sure no primary is laying on any secondary, test the actual load etc etc. Change 60ma systems to 30ma if it's not needed. That's big savings in service for the client!

Again, why would you trade a light source like red clear neon pumped lamps, something that's just gas and glass and does not degrade in light last 40+ years to say red LEDs that do degrade on a regular basis?

If there is a benefit in savings to retrofit and trade out one for another, I'd like to see it, I'd like to see the numbers because I can't find it unless it's a remote location where access is hard or the environment is so harsh you must use another, i.e. LEDs dying in Arizona or Neon dim in Alaska. I've done many ROI figures here on the SS with Neon , Fluorescent and LEDs, along with electrical engineers and I can't find the immediate upfront savings in only a few years ROI that saves the client money on typical conventional location signs with typical access. But the Marketeers like Magic Mouth can tell you they can, and save 80% in energy costs, and that retrofitting is "More Efficient"

But it's applicable under conditions then yes it can makes sense.

For new signs I like both light sources too, and have used both. But according to my local, I have very good Neon benders, my temps are mainly 70F and unless access is hard, letters are not big enough for Neon components, it makes sense to use neon and because I "know" how to install it. If size matters, or access then so be it. I've guaranteed both Neon and LED signs for 5 years labor included, but these are news signs.

Being in this industry I can't see ever selling anyone (end client) on a retrofit job from one light source to another under the guise of "Green", "Saving the Planet", or "Saving Money" "Energy Efficient (myth)" it's not there, at least the ROI is not in a few years, what I see with running the numbers is 15 to 40+.

It's not just me saying this, it's electrical engineers too. In no way am I biased, I use to be, but I see the benefits of LEDs

Erik I agree with everything you said. i stand by my statment that I never see people going from neon to led to neon, it just doesnt happen. I love selling and servicing neon. I am happy when I open up a can and see neon still, but For some applications LED is very practical

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You can stand by what you've seen, but I just listed a few major programs that have changed and some are nationwide. I could mention more or some that are about to cahnge but I don't have permission to speak about and it's not my place to speak for other people or break a "Between you and I".

I have had the most interesting conversations on failures though, some admit that they never should have changed in the first place and all that can happen now is continue to use the next best product changing over from LED line to LED line playing musical chairs.

Maybe some others will make mention of the re-re-retrofits that they've had to do, some of those people's companies are on this board, but whether they have permission to tie their own shoes being on company time.....well that's another story, haha!

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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You can stand by what you've seen, but I just listed a few major programs that have changed and some are nationwide. I could mention more or some that are about to cahnge but I don't have permission to speak about and it's not my place to speak for other people or break a "Between you and I".

I have had the most interesting conversations on failures though, some admit that they never should have changed in the first place and all that can happen now is continue to use the next best product changing over from LED line to LED line playing musical chairs.

Maybe some others will make mention of the re-re-retrofits that they've had to do, some of those people's companies are on this board, but whether they have permission to tie their own shoes being on company time.....well that's another story, haha!

Erik;

I have been involved with some interesting conversations regarding failures, only in a different venue. I am active with canopy retrofits and can tell you there are more premature failures with exterior lighting that most are comfortable to admit to.

From an electrical/lighting standpoint, I can agree with you that LED is not the "end all be all" at this point in their evolution. In conjunction with LED canopy lighting retrofits, is fascia sign and channel letter retrofits utilizing LED and there are failures there as well.

And to challenge you on "LED's are made to save money", it should read "LED's are made to make money".

Lastly, neon is an art that is perfected over time. That's why glass blowing,as it were, is an industrial art. LED is just another business product that relies on the latest cheap shit house factory in China to build and ship that product to the USA. Don't get me wrong, LED's have there place in the scheme of things but nothing quite matches the sheer art form of a well crafted and installed neon sign. But LED is not going away so get used to it.....

Best

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"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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Some other advantages to LEDs I forgot to mention is shipping, and safety.

Years ago I had a regular client my friend who's company hosts this SS Site who opened up an office up in long beach and I had to drive up and install a few electrical lobby signs. Well I didn't feel like driving up an hour and a half and worry about any lamp breakage so I changed the tri-phosphor lamps to LEDs. Then he opened up a Virginia location and I shipped that again as LED.

It's also nice to have an option of LED border tubing for those apps where the public has access to the lamps where they're in reach or able to touch.

But we're talking retrofits here. That is funny though on the "comfortable to admit to. i don't know any sign company that is going to admit fault to a company they just asked to pay/shell out upfront to retrofit or change their exiting sign program to another light source that's just not panning out to well in some/most areas. Usually it's the client who fires them and begins to ask for reverting back to what used to work for them after they just basically pissed a bunch of money down a urinal

post-3-0-84724800-1372816571_thumb.jpg

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I would think at least some of the Nationals that went back to neon made bad choices in picking their led's, power supplies and manufacturers. The most expensive option isn't always the best option. LED's and / or neon need to be picked and spec'd for the job at hand, the proper amount installed, the right size power supplies/transformers as well as wired correctly with the right size wire. I've seen a lot of led letters wired incorrectly. They work but it's hard on life expectancy. Running power supplies to the maxx is another big issue.

I personally, have never had an issue or complaint with my led channel letters. I use 1 brand led's and 1 brand power supplies only and have for almost 5 years now. The main reason is we are wholesale and ship all over the US and I want to know what is in the sign and I want to know my customer won't be calling me for shipping damage or other lighting complaints.

If you do your own work and bend neon it's a great option. But, if you pay someone else to build the product and install the light source you should probably be using led's in most projects. We all know how employee's respect our product and tools. Once it leaves my sight I don't know how it's handled and every time you pay for a mistake you take money from your bottom line. With led's the installer can tie a rope to it and drag it to the job site and it will probably still light up.

On a side note, we converted our sign, a set of channel letters, to led's 5 years and 3 months ago. They run 24 hours a day by choice, to see how long they would last. They are all still burning and look pretty good. I'm sure the brightness has fallen off some but it's hard to tell when you look at them every day.

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We are in the process of building a complete 250 ft length channel letter sign. This sign will be an exact replica of the original. The original was built with NEON in 1955. We have serviced it for the last 6 years. Mostly transformers and shorts. 58 FIFTY EIGHT Years of constant lighting. The sign cabinet is now the problem.

The owner was looking at LED replacements for several years. Chase Bank and Holiday Inn signs in the area are using LEDs. He watched them get dimmer and go out. Replacement LEDs looked worse.

So back to the Neon. The entire lighting will be neon. Manufactured by me. Proven for almost 60 years in his original sign. Neon ..Done right will outlast us all. All aluminum construction will outlast my grand kids

I also work on 2 signs that are 90 plus years old and all neon. Still going.

LED lighting does have its place and is excellent for certain jobs. The problem is that we have no quality control over it.

The educated customer is the best customer. I will win the lighted signs with neon over the LEDs 85 % of the time. Most of the owner operated stores will choose Neon because of the proven record.

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One nice thing about leds; because an led power supply's secondaries carry low voltage, there's no need for them to be short, and so no need to install the power supply units in the rotten, miserable places where neon transformers are often located. For example, at many Walgreens stores the led power supplies are mounted in the main circuit panel room. Inside that room there will be a large dedicated panel filled with power supplies, each labeled with the letters is powers. To change a power supply, (which is an led sign's most commonly called-for repair IME), one needs only to walk, (upright!), into the nicely lighted, air conditioned panel room with a step ladder and a few simple tools.

Tom

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One nice thing about leds; because an led power supply's secondaries carry low voltage, there's no need for them to be short, and so no need to install the power supply units in the rotten, miserable places where neon transformers are often located.....

Tom

That's not exactly true, like anything you have will have voltage drops and for CV modules you'll want to make sure their at 12v where they connect to the string, this is more of an advantage for CC Modules, and different length runs for the same power supply will have a different voltage at the end of the wires. There was in interesting thread and I'd have to find it here involving two LED mfg's and the voltage drop by the foot and what it does to the power supply and the complete system. I think it involved using a 50' or 100' secondary run. Even when I used LEDs, I still them to be short as possible and depending on the type of module with as many branches as I can. This may make for a good second topic thread I can start.

I suppose any client could make any access room as comfortable as they want. I think the nicest crawl space if you want to call it that, that I've been in where the remote transformers were located had huge industrial fans and ventilation and even in the summer time gave it sort of a cool breeze. It had all drywall, a couch, lighting and plenty of electrical outlets for any tools you had, wish they all were like this.

Besides, what's wrong with getting yourself into dirty, rotten, miserable poor ventilated places, you got something against that??? This is the SIGN business, it's no place for "Tenderfoots", or "Milk Drinkers!" The day of an installation is not complete without a self-dripping sweat shower and the burning sensation of cuts on your body that you got from the day when you finally take a shower!!! :P

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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..Done right will outlast us all. All aluminum construction will outlast my grand kids

I agree with this, neon done right can outperform leds in terms of longevity and maintenance cost. Unfortunately for neon, though, too few sign people are willing and able to do it right, and too few customers are willing to pay the required premium for having it done right. Designing, installing, and fabricating good neon signs requires a higher level of training and experience than making the same signs with leds and so quality neon is the more expensive option. But is the premium that must be paid for well-done neon over leds a good investment from the standpoint of business owners? Only the market for signs can answer that question, and so far the answer seems to mostly be "no".

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There was in interesting thread and I'd have to find it here involving two LED mfg's and the voltage drop by the foot and what it does to the power supply and the complete system. I think it involved using a 50' or 100' secondary run. Even when I used LEDs, I still them to be short as possible and depending on the type of module with as many branches as I can. This may make for a good second topic thread I can start.

It would be nice to know the allowable secondary voltage drop for a given CV power supply. But, in ignorance, I'm guessing that a 25 foot run of stranded 12 awg wire would be ok for the total output of a 60 watt led supply. Does that sound about right to you?

Tom

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You can stand by what you've seen, but I just listed a few major programs that have changed and some are nationwide. I could mention more or some that are about to cahnge but I don't have permission to speak about and it's not my place to speak for other people or break a "Between you and I".

I have had the most interesting conversations on failures though, some admit that they never should have changed in the first place and all that can happen now is continue to use the next best product changing over from LED line to LED line playing musical chairs.

Maybe some others will make mention of the re-re-retrofits that they've had to do, some of those people's companies are on this board, but whether they have permission to tie their own shoes being on company time.....well that's another story, haha!

Erik;

I have been involved with some interesting conversations regarding failures, only in a different venue. I am active with canopy retrofits and can tell you there are more premature failures with exterior lighting that most are comfortable to admit to.

From an electrical/lighting standpoint, I can agree with you that LED is not the "end all be all" at this point in their evolution. In conjunction with LED canopy lighting retrofits, is fascia sign and channel letter retrofits utilizing LED and there are failures there as well.

And to challenge you on "LED's are made to save money", it should read "LED's are made to make money".

Lastly, neon is an art that is perfected over time. That's why glass blowing,as it were, is an industrial art. LED is just another business product that relies on the latest cheap shit house factory in China to build and ship that product to the USA. Don't get me wrong, LED's have there place in the scheme of things but nothing quite matches the sheer art form of a well crafted and installed neon sign. But LED is not going away so get used to it.....

Best

Buy this man a drink.

The latest disturbing trend I've seen around town is annoying LED borders. Pray these don't come to your town. Thousands of bright white dots around roof-lines or window frames to say, look here, we know how to turn your head in the most tacky way possible. All you need is a staple gun. I will get photos and post soon.

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Buy this man a drink.

The latest disturbing trend I've seen around town is annoying LED borders. Pray these don't come to your town. Thousands of bright white dots around roof-lines or window frames to say, look here, we know how to turn your head in the most tacky way possible. All you need is a staple gun. I will get photos and post soon.

Oh please don't post a pic of that crap - someone in our industry will think it's a great idea and head off to their local Home Depot to buy a roll of led rope lighting! LOL

Actually I look forward to the pics so that I can show my clients the difference between a professional neon installation and the stuff installed by Joe Blow Fly-by-Nighter down the road.

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