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I guess after 70 years they want a change, LOL Funny part is that the companies that supplied the glass and electrodes are one of the ones that are still around and able to provide replacement parts. I'm pretty sure that in even 5 years sloan or Olympic wont be able to supply replacement parts and even then it wont match like the clear red neon does.

This is why you have to educate the customer on the pros & cons of going with LED's & in what applications would you be most likely to use them. Yes, in 5 years time that Sloan system WILL probably be outdated & there WILL be an LED product in its place that is even brighter, more durable, & less expensive than both the neon & LED before it.

Its like playing the lottery.

Is the upfront cost worth it in the long run (5, 10, 15 years later) for the energy savings & increase of safety? That's something only the customer can answer.

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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How long of a run? 48+ years on ROI?

Increase of safety? What do you mean? How is Neon a risk in/of safety?


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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How long of a run? 48+ years on ROI?

Increase of safety? What do you mean? How is Neon a risk in/of safety?

Red LED's are comparably priced to neon these days so its a wash. Do you re-pump every so many years when the gas finally leaks out or throw a new plastic tube up when half of your LED's go out or diminish to extremely low light levels.

Safety meaning neon runs at much higher voltages than LED's do (15,000 volts vs. 12 or 24). The tubes get hot enough to melt awnings blown up in a storm & start fires. As hardcore as some of the neon guys are they fail to admit the constant dusting of tubes when used indoors & the breakage factor that comes along with using it outdoors, especially in areas like mine where we get frequent hail, tornadoes, & hurricanes none of which affects a well installed LED system.

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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Well, not at all.

Red Neon on average is about $3 to $4 a liner foot vs $18 a foot for flexible LED.

Let's not take tangents off the subject or get into exaggerations , this is for a top floor roof sign. No ones installing neon near anything flammable and I'm not sure who would do such a thing, I've never seen a lamp blow up or spontaneously cum-bust, nor start a fire. Never have I touched a "Hot" lamp, warm maybe, but not hot.

Please tell me how a Neon lamp or system is capable of starting that is to code?

I feel like I'm going to hear the one about go LED because the Neon lamps is 360˙ and throws light pollution where it's not needed and LEDs don't because their directional pinpoint lighting next, or Neon is not good for the environment.

Matt, I've never heard off "Light It up Integrations" out of Texas. Can you provide your contact info please so we know who we're talking too?


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Just read that thread......I agree with you, but anyting tha w ill get the public to look to neon as an option is good in my book. Talking to some builders here, having neon listed as green gives them options with neon as architectural lighting options, and more for me to bend.......

Anything that gives correct info about LED vs neon is good in my book because neon will win that fight with proven reliability etc. I wonder how many refits we will all be doing when the sun kills all the plastic etc and the lumens of these led units drop to levels the salesman never told them about........oh well Keep bending!!

In areas with frequent hail storms, tornadoes, & hurricanes neon is simply not an option anymore.

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Repump when the gas leaks out? The tubes get hot enough to catch awnings on fire? And nothing bothers an led system?

The only valid thing you stated was leds run at 12 or 24 volts. Everyyhing else wss typical led bullshit propaganda. You trully n=d to learn a bit more about neon.....

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The tubes get hot enough to melt awnings blown up in a storm & start fires.

Say what????? Neon tubes produce very little heat at all. Less than LED strips actually. Talking about the limitation of neon and LED's is one thing - but don't make stuff up.

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Well, not at all.

Red Neon on average is about $3 to $4 a liner foot vs $18 a foot for flexible LED.

Let's not take tangents off the subject or get into exaggerations , this is for a top floor roof sign. No ones installing neon near anything flammable and I'm not sure who would do such a thing, I've never seen a lamp blow up or spontaneously cum-bust, nor start a fire. Never have I touched a "Hot" lamp, warm maybe, but not hot.

Please tell me how a Neon lamp or system is capable of starting that is to code?

I feel like I'm going to hear the one about go LED because the Neon lamps is 360˙ and throws light pollution where it's not needed and LEDs don't because their directional pinpoint lighting next, or Neon is not good for the environment.

Matt, I've never heard off "Light It up Integrations" out of Texas. Can you provide your contact info please so we know who we're talking too?

Erik, I don't know when the last time you checked pricing for flexible led was, but you can get the red from anywhere between $4 - $12 per linear foot now. Companies like Sloan & GE mark theirs up about 3-4 times that because of the name & fact they offer a "5 year warranty".

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Repump when the gas leaks out? The tubes get hot enough to catch awnings on fire? And nothing bothers an led system?

The only valid thing you stated was leds run at 12 or 24 volts. Everyyhing else wss typical led bullshit propaganda. You trully n=d to learn a bit more about neon.....

The LED system I like to use is stable to hurricane force winds over 150 mph. Neon can't touch that.

Yes, there are things that do bother LED's such as heat & line surges.

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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So Who has flexible LEDs for $4 a foot?

I'm not doubting you, but I'm not sure I would buy a $4 flexible LED system. Good modules alone run about $4 a foot, let alone adding in all the other components that can make up a flexible system. The one I would probably buy would be around $12-$15 a foot if I had to use one but that's just for unit without the components.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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The tubes get hot enough to melt awnings blown up in a storm & start fires.

Say what????? Neon tubes produce very little heat at all. Less than LED strips actually. Talking about the limitation of neon and LED's is one thing - but don't make stuff up.

Maybe we could get Erik or someone with access to both to do some heat readings for us at the source?

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So Who has flexible LEDs for $4 a foot?

I'm not doubting you, but I'm not sure I would buy a $4 flexible LED system. Good modules alone run about $4 a foot, let alone adding in all the other components that can make up a flexible system. The one I would probably buy would be around $12-$15 a foot if I had to use one but that's just for unit without the components.

I'm not talking about modules I'm talking about border lights. I don't really do a whole lot of back lit signage so I can't say.

Erik PM me if you want details on the flex.

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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So Who has flexible LEDs for $4 a foot?

I'm not doubting you, but I'm not sure I would buy a $4 flexible LED system. Good modules alone run about $4 a foot, let alone adding in all the other components that can make up a flexible system. The one I would probably buy would be around $12-$15 a foot if I had to use one but that's just for unit without the components.

I'm not talking about modules I'm talking about border lights. I don't really do a whole lot of back lit signage so I can't say.

Erik PM me if you want details.

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Just post out on the open here for all to see.

I know we're not talking about modules. I'm just relaying the fact that good lasting LED modules run about $4 a foot, let alone having to pay for the extra make up for the clips, glue, extrusions, splicers and gel coats, silicone caots or lens etc etc. So $4 a foot to pay for all that just sounds cheezy and I'm sure the integrity and quality is not there.

Again, you're taking a tangent from the purpose of this thread which is "Open Face" channel letters where Neon & Flexible LEDs used to simulate "Neon". Not "Border" lights.

But yes, environment is a BIG key factor on what type of light source you want to use for your applications. Humidity, Heat, Frigid Temps, Hurricanes & Tornadoes.

If this Drake Sign was somewhere in the south where hurricanes touch down all the time and the purpose of going to LED was for that then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Surely you jest? After 150mph winds and the building and sign and town is demolished, the led's are still working? Whoooopie!

If the building were to catch fire I bet your led would burn and melt before the neon tube! I bet your 12v wire would shrivel up before the silicone wire would. If lightning hit, want to bet your electronic power supply would get killed before a core_coil transformer?

So if you are going to TRY and prove a point for led then skip your one extreme that is bull.

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Again, please list your "real" company info for your profile.

I can for shits and giggles put a thermometer on both light sources but if you've ever touched a Neon lamp before I think you will already know the answer.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Surely you jest? After 150mph winds and the building and sign and town is demolished, the led's are still working? Whoooopie!

If the building were to catch fire I bet your led would burn and melt before the neon tube! I bet your 12v wire would shrivel up before the silicone wire would. If lightning hit, want to bet your electronic power supply would get killed before a core_coil transformer?

So if you are going to TRY and prove a point for led then skip your one extreme that is bull.

Nope, my system uses magnetic transformers.

You are just assuming all LED systems operate on electronic transformers...not the case. In places where an unsightly magnetic transformer in a box will take up space I will use a Meanwell LED transformer.

Funny because most neon guys are switching out their magnetic transformers for electronics to compete with LED's in energy savings.

I love neon, but its dying just like metal halides, sodium bulbs,& flourescents. They are considered hazardous materials.

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Just post out on the open here for all to see.

I know we're not talking about modules. I'm just relaying the fact that good lasting LED modules run about $4 a foot, let alone having to pay for the extra make up for the clips, glue, extrusions, splicers and gel coats, silicone caots or lens etc etc. So $4 a foot to pay for all that just sounds cheezy and I'm sure the integrity and quality is not there.

Again, you're taking a tangent from the purpose of this thread which is "Open Face" channel letters where Neon & Flexible LEDs used to simulate "Neon". Not "Border" lights.

But yes, environment is a BIG key factor on what type of light source you want to use for your applications. Humidity, Heat, Frigid Temps, Hurricanes & Tornadoes.

If this Drake Sign was somewhere in the south where hurricanes touch down all the time and the purpose of going to LED was for that then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yes, climate does play a VERY important factor.

You are in California where neon works wonderful 365 days a year, I'm not. You guys are in a 100 year mega drought with no relief in sight. I would imagine those neon tubes would last forever unless you had an earthquake (God forbid) come rattle them loose or shatter them.

Getting back to the OP the sign is in Chicago where its below freezing for a good number of months out of the year. Neon will be dim as a firefly (if it even lights) while LED's are shining brighter than ever. So much for the holiday season in Chicago with neon.

Was it worth the retrofit for energy savings, tax rebates, & cold weather performance? Only the buildings owner can answer that question.

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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You really should learn more. I am a neon guy, and love led. But can't stand the B.S. Neon is hazardous material, you say? 100 recyclable!! And a "green product" by the green people.

Not like the vast carcinogens released making led products. Learn more about what you speak bud.

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Just post out on the open here for all to see.

I know we're not talking about modules. I'm just relaying the fact that good lasting LED modules run about $4 a foot, let alone having to pay for the extra make up for the clips, glue, extrusions, splicers and gel coats, silicone caots or lens etc etc. So $4 a foot to pay for all that just sounds cheezy and I'm sure the integrity and quality is not there.

Again, you're taking a tangent from the purpose of this thread which is "Open Face" channel letters where Neon & Flexible LEDs used to simulate "Neon". Not "Border" lights.

But yes, environment is a BIG key factor on what type of light source you want to use for your applications. Humidity, Heat, Frigid Temps, Hurricanes & Tornadoes.

If this Drake Sign was somewhere in the south where hurricanes touch down all the time and the purpose of going to LED was for that then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yes, climate does play a factor.

You are in California where neon works wonderful 365 days a year, I'm not.

Getting back to the OP the sign is in Chicago where its below freezing for a good number of months out of the year. Neon will be dim as a firefly (if it even lights) while LED's are shining brighter than ever.

The Drake sign was red and will not be dim. So, again, learn what you speak of...... Edited by Gary Nutting

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Matt I don't know why you signed for a second account. I was a little suspicious when you called me but now I just have to assume that the LED system is yours and not one that you use.

I have a big feeling you have read nothing in this entire thread otherwise you would already know that ambient temperatures will not affect the Neon of this Drake Project.

But when you say Neon guys want to use SST's over Magnetic to be where the LEDs are what exactly are you saving?

First and foremost Neon is much much brighter than the flexible LED stuff so your not really able to compare or say one is more efficient than the other because the light sources are NOT equal. Your comparing a penlight to a maglight and stating the penlight is more efficient because it has a lesser cost of operation and uses smaller betteries.

In reality we can probably compare a fat 25mm Neon lamp to the flexible LED stuff and maybe the Neon would be low enough to make a fair comparison in light output and by that time, the neon lamp would be 1.8 watts (Hg) per foot or in this case for red, 2.1 watts per foot and now below that of the LED system (2.8 watt/ft) and using a magnetic neon transformer.

If you did your reading of this thread you would also know that a neon pumped lamp is just glass and gas, and cold frigid temps do not affect the light output. So there is nothing about Chicago that will dim the lamp to that of a firefly. Now we could question Chicago humidity and what they can do to electronics and LEDs. But again, that's another topic and another discussion.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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You really should learn more. I am a neon guy, and love led. But can't stand the B.S. Neon is hazardous material, you say? 100 recyclable!! And a "green product" by the green people.

Not like the vast carcinogens released making led products. Learn more about what you speak bud.

Tell me...how are you going to capture those mercury vapors released by broken green & blue tubes?

I'd be amazed to know & would like to invent something like that some day. I might be a billionaire.

I know this much...only red is considered "neon".

What bothers me is the fact we were all sold on mercury tooth fillings by our dentists decades ago.

Its no wonder the old washed up neon guys are "mad as a hatter". It affects the brain chemistry sucking on those glass tubes. ;)

I kid.

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Matt I don't know why you signed for a second account. I was a little suspicious when you called me but now I just have to assume that the LED system is yours and not one that you use.

I have a big feeling you have read nothing in this entire thread otherwise you would already know that ambient temperatures will not affect the Neon of this Drake Project.

But when you say Neon guys want to use SST's over Magnetic to be where the LEDs are what exactly are you saving?

First and foremost Neon is much much brighter than the flexible LED stuff so your not really able to compare or say one is more efficient than the other because the light sources are NOT equal. Your comparing a penlight to a maglight and stating the penlight is more efficient because it has a lesser cost of operation and uses smaller betteries.

In reality we can probably compare a fat 25mm Neon lamp to the flexible LED stuff and maybe the Neon would be low enough to make a fair comparison in light output and by that time, the neon lamp would be 1.8 watts (Hg) per foot or in this case for red, 2.1 watts per foot and now below that of the LED system (2.8 watt/ft) and using a magnetic neon transformer.

If you did your reading of this thread you would also know that a neon pumped lamp is just glass and gas, and cold frigid temps do not affect the light output. So there is nothing about Chicago that will dim the lamp to that of a firefly. Now we could question Chicago humidity and what they can do to electronics and LEDs. But again, that's another topic and another discussion.

Erik

1. I never signed up for a second account. I was however signing in from social networking & decided to make a real account. Shame on me.

2. I never called you. That must have been someone else.

3. I love both neon & led. There is a time & place for both. Ultimately its up to the sign guy to educate the customer on the pros & cons of both. Sadly, most don't have a clue.

4. Only the building owners can truly justify how their money was spent. Buildings get bought & sold all the time. Do you for a minute think they care if their neon or LED is up & burning in 25 years? They want the here, the now.

5. If it were me or my building I would have left the neon on this particular sign simply for a bit a nostalgia, but again, sometimes its the owners coming to you saying they WANT to go LED doesn't matter what it costs.

Thanks & have a good day.

PS why is this website displaying the wrong post times? Its a good 6 hours off on my end. Maybe that's also why you thought I made a 2nd account. You may have issues with your server or who ever hosts this site.

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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Interesting, so your not the Matt who has the lensless border units installed around Texas? Alright

Now that you bring up Mercury.

So, tell me what is harmful about Mercury (Quicksilver)?

Yes the EPA has listed it as hazardous but what has the EPA ever done that's logical or correct beside make it impossible to run a business. Mercury is a natural element. Did yo know it's supposed to be real dangerous if it mixes with underground wells or running water. But guess how many actual cases there are of mercury poison in our natural streams. Our streams are full of Mercury but not very many actual cases of poisoning. Is mercury mis-characterized? I think so. just like Neon is and has been.

Mercury is everywhere and it's more dangerous in the air in the form of vapor than it is in it's natural state. When a tree burns it releases mercury, then a volcano errupts it releases merc vapor and more than mankind has ever released on it's own in man's lifetime on earth. Most LEDs are made in china, china has coal plants that put merc into the air. Since most production is in China it takes more energy to make LEDs, the diodes, the drivers, the resistors and assembly than it does to make glass, all the meanwhile all that production coal plants put up more mercury. Spend 500 watts to save 5 watts?

If mercury is important to you and you feel there is danger, would you rather have your mercury up in the air for LEDs, or would you rather have it contained in a glass tube safe from children?

i had a environmental scientist tell me once that it's perfectly safe to swallow mercury. Would I do it? No, probably not, not because I think it will really hurt me but because I've been trained to think so. Sort of like seeing Jaws and having it ruined for myself of every wanting to go out and swim with the sharks or be in a shark cage.....personally I don't want to be anywhere near a shark, that movie ruined my life.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Interesting, so your not the Matt who has the lensless border units installed around Texas? Alright

Now that you bring up Mercury.

So, tell me what is harmful about Mercury (Quicksilver)?

Yes the EPA has listed it as hazardous but what has the EPA ever done that's logical or correct beside make it impossible to run a business. Mercury is a natural element. Did yo know it's supposed to be real dangerous if it mixes with underground wells or running water. But guess how many actual cases there are of mercury poison in our natural streams. Our streams are full of Mercury but not very many actual cases of poisoning. Is mercury mis-characterized? I think so. just like Neon is and has been.

Mercury is everywhere and it's more dangerous in the air in the form of vapor than it is in it's natural state. When a tree burns it releases mercury, then a volcano errupts it releases merc vapor and more than mankind has ever released on it's own in man's lifetime on earth. Most LEDs are made in china, china has coal plants that put merc into the air. Since most production is in China it takes more energy to make LEDs, the diodes, the drivers, the resistors and assembly than it does to make glass, all the meanwhile all that production coal plants put up more mercury. Spend 500 watts to save 5 watts?

If mercury is important to you and you feel there is danger, would you rather have your mercury up in the air for LEDs, or would you rather have it contained in a glass tube safe from children?

i had a environmental scientist tell me once that it's perfectly safe to swallow mercury. Would I do it? No, probably not, not because I think it will really hurt me but because I've been trained to think so. Sort of like seeing Jaws and having it ruined for myself of every wanting to go out and swim with the sharks or be in a shark cage.....personally I don't want to be anywhere near a shark, that movie ruined my life.

Those glass tubes do release mercury vapor, especially when they are broken, as happens VERY frequently around these parts, especially in the Spring (tornado season) & Summer/Fall (hurricane season) months.

There is no way in hell a neon guy that has been blowing a glass d%$k for 20, 30, 40, or 50 years doesn't have some sort of biological damage from that. You can't tell me that. Its called Mad Hatter's Syndrome & it is completely irreversible. Most neon benders work with well beyond what is considered the "normal" mercury exposure limit.

Thank God we all don't live in China. Coal plants releasing gas are the least of their concerns. Over crowding, lack of food & water, famine, disease, government corruption, & toxic land fills would be first.

Which environmentalist told you that? You live in California where they have regulations against everything else in the book (maybe even public sneezing) but not dealing with Mercury especially swallowing a vile full of it? I'm a bit suspicious on that one...

Edited by ETX_LED_GUY

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      Experienced working with LED Electronic Signs, Scoreboards, LED Video Displays and/or experience working in the Billboard Industry is desired. Must be able to climb billboard structures, be comfortable working at heights of 100’ for extended time frames. Work can occur in a variety of weather conditions. Must have good driving record. CDL is a plus. Ability to manage and assist on-site contractors with the installation of large LED screens, from lifting and mounting, primary power installation, data communications, internet connections, sign commissioning and customer sign off. Can answer questions, manage projects, handle on site issues, communicate professionally with subcontractors, customers and manager. Must be organized, responsible person with the ability to analyze problems and communicate with manager and customers. Computer and Computer Network Knowledge Desirable. Understanding of electrical requirements for wiring general signage. Experienced with high/low voltage power distribution and data communications/networking. Good general mechanical skills and analyzing issues. Education or experience in Welding, Electrical and or Computers/Computer networking a plus. 7 Days a week operation. 50% Travel required with overnight travel and limited international travel. Have a valid passport or can obtain one. We realize that candidates will not have all the above skills. If you feel like this is something you would be interested in and have experience working at heights, climbing, overnight travel is acceptable, we encourage you to apply.
      All candidates must have full authorization to work in the US without requiring current or future sponsorship.
      Please list the job position you are applying for in your response. We have multiple job OPENINGS, so we need to know what position you are seeking.
      EOE
      Job Type: Full-time
       
      Below are examples of typical projects






    • By Erik Sine
      PK HOUSINGS
       
      PK, or Neon P-K Housings are harder and harder to find these days with no major Neon Manufacturer still producing the Metal Shroud portion of a PK Housing.  Westrim??  Nope....Transco?  Nope....Allanson?  Nope...
       
       In fact, it's been nearly impossible to find New complete PK Housings. 
       
      The only way in the last couple of years if you had a Neon Project for a client has been to find existing stock from a sign company that has had some just sitting on a old dusty shelf somewhere, or possibly a sign supplier who didn't even know they had any, and with LEDs flooding the market it's doubtful a supplier rep even knows what they are/were, and that dusty case they do have with all those strange metal & glass components was possibly spare parts for some old delivery truck their company use to have from the 90's???   
       
      Think of how many have just been straight thrown out in the garbage
       
      Well, not every Neon wall project calls for #200, #300 Housings, the difficult Masters Technologies Boots and Sleeving System.  If you want a Neon attached to on a wall for a clean look & without a raceway, YES...it IS still possible!!!
       
      We've been sitting on these for some time, sorry for the late public announcement
       
      Store Link of Neon Housings
      http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/store/category/8-neon-housing-components/
       
       
       
      Call or Email us for questions or orders!!  orders@thesignsyndicate   (858) 880-1400
       
       

    • By ScooterDoesIt
      Hello All,
       
      I am trying to replace an obsolete neon transformer on a bar light and cannot seem to find anyone who can confirm what modern transformer will work as the proper replacement. That's why I came here to the experts!
       
      I've attached a photo of the old indoor gas tube transformer.
      I believe it says it's an Actown Model No. FG 3851.
      PRIM 120 Volts 60 Hz 270VA
      SEC 9,000 Volts 30 MA
      Secondary Mid-Point Grounded
       
      I believe Actown was bought by Franceformer years ago.
       
      Can anyone offer any insight on what a solid replacement transformer for a bar neon would be?
       
      Any info. anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.
       
      Thanks!
       
       



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