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IS IT THAT BAD ?


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  • !llumenati

I was contacted by a national that said......

Paul, We will give you as much work as you can handel.........BUT we pay in 145 days. Really ? I know that wont happen.

It is more like 180 plus. That is 6 months after the work is completed.

Good Luck to them.

Is it really that bad that complanies are willing to work for free ?

We still have lots of Nationals paying in under 30 days. Some as soon as the job is completed.

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  • !llumenati

The other one we get is from the "Facilities maintanace companies " please go out and find out what the problem is and estimate it. Then we will issue a PO if it is acceptable. OR "We know you dont work for free, so give us your lowest price possible" ??? WTF

They have a beter chance speaking with Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy

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I believe it.

I walk into a lot of shops and I see all the signs that were brought in from Nationals and their all built by the lowest bidder. Their all built out of junk.

The margins are low so being the lowest bidder obviously they don't have much left over to pay the bills, make payroll let alone pay the subs. They must burn through deposit money to pay for three contracts earlier that have been on the fabrication que.

Wonder what it's like at the ISA National Sign / Sign Distributor/Supplier meet that just happened or happens? I mean what really happens? Must be a lot glaring stares and grumbling about who owes who and who owes what.

Not sure if that's a good mix to have all in one room.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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After nearly 20 years in the biz my tolerance for this behavior is pretty low. It seemed to go on steroids after the 2008 economic crash. Companies realized there were desperate folks out there who would tolerate long billing cycles and they quickly adopted this as the norm. But the seasons changed and some seem still stuck in 2010.

The norm to getting things done is building positive relationships with your customers and suppliers. I tolerate 60 days from a National if their billing system really requires it, and in all other areas they are stellar. If they cannot I do accept credit cards. Rarely after 90 days taken to pay will I do future work for them. I'm not someone else's bank.

Things move fast in this economy. I realize I am expected to get things done quickly and accurately - and I do deliver. I expect the same from the other people involved in the transaction.

Edited by megavolt512
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I pay all our service partners within 15-30 days max!

If you do what you have been contracted to do you should get paid timely, Period!

Are you supposed to tell the electric company you will pay them in 6 month's? Let's see how that goes over.

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  • !llumenati

I hear ya Paul,

A maintenance company in your neck of the woods stipulates 1/2 hour travel allowance. I told them it is 1 hour each way so you need to change your PO. Never heard back and then they were saying their customer was mad. Bit the bullet and went only because we had others to do there and realized it was more indepth than initially thought, so called because the NTE was exceeding and they got mad. Told them to send one of their own trucks which I see all the time running around.

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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I hear ya Paul,

A maintenance company in your neck of the woods stipulates 1/2 hour travel allowance. I told them it is 1 hour each way so you need to change your PO. Never heard back and then they were saying their customer was mad. Bit the bullet and went only because we had others to do there and realized it was more indepth than initially thought, so called because the NTE was exceeding and they got mad. Told them to send one of their own trucks which I see all the time running around.

it wouldnt happen to be a white dodge ram bucket truck would it

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I was contacted this month by an NSP which shall remain nameless. They wanted to use my electrical, lighting and low sign services for a fair amount of various retail stores in mall settings. On the surface, the contract they sent me to sign was seemingly fine. My rates were acceptable, travel was ok and it seemed like a good deal. In looking further at the contract, the payment terms were a blueprint for disaster.

They would pay you at "60 days OR when they got paid, whichever was the greater amount". No kidding, it was worded exactly in this way. I spoke to the person who was the contract administrator and asked what the average receivable turn was on their end. He couldn't answer or wouldn't answer. I then asked how I could verify when they got paid, and again, no answer.

This clause which they wanted to include in their contract was an open ticket to pay their subs when they wanted and at their whim. Since I can control my invoices and not theirs, they could say they got paid whenever they wanted and then pay me whenever they wanted. Hell they could bill when they wanted because I would be the open ended financier.

No way and I politely declined to sign the contract and walked away from a large contract base which was basically worthless. I would be completely financing their work and possibly (most likely) would be paid extremely slow and have a hurt put on my company

I told them if they struck out that vague clause and put something concrete in its place, I would sign. Needless to say, another opportunity with an NSP went by the wayside.

They can keep their work and I will keep my money and current customer base. I am convinced these Nationals have put all their employees on Lithium, because I couldn't fathom a sane employee asking another contractor to bend over and pull his pants down in broad daylight, while they stick it in and break it off.

Best

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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You know, I read a lot of these posts and I rarely ever take or do any work for a National or service provider but what surprises me is a lot of you are ISA members, or members of some other sign association. Have any of you EVER put their feet to the fire on this issue?

A lot of this failure to pay is ILLEGAL, especially if you're a CA licensed contractor (not picking on you Snooch), or NV, or AZ, or TX etc etc. Accepting subcontract work from a unlicensed contractor is still illegal in this state, so is acting like a licensed contractor when you're unlicensed ESPECIALLY setting terms where it's over 30 days. This goes for a lot of states in this country, there are state laws that determine when a sub MUST be paid.

We have organizations like the International Sign Association who just LOVE programs and LOVE to promote their National Sign Company / Sign Distributor all over social media and our other media outlets. Meanwhile their also supporting movements/bills that downgrade the whole purpose of a contractors license which will allow any Dick or Jane to be a or allowed to subcontract without a license to a licensed contractor in subcontracting, I.e. Wisconsin in recent weeks/months also the matter in Texas.

Like I've always said, the problem with our Associations is that their run by outsiders, marketeers...you know, people from the plastics trade who suddenly decided to come into the sign trade and merge crap to become bigger but at the same time not UNDERSTAND our trade nor understand the clutter they created by merging with the t-shirt association...the architectural trophy association. BUT...after a few years it's okay because they just move on to the next thing, maybe the pool & spa trade or mobile lift gate industry.

A lot of their large paying membership fee payers companies are the ones causing/abusing this issue in our trade, hell...some are even given industry awards for their "great" work. I know most associations at the volunteer base are composed of regurgitated individuals who have stayed in associations (The good ol boys) for longer than really needed or go from one association to an other.

Don't YOU as a association member card carrying paying member want to know why they are NOT creating an issue or trying to put some sort of program/bill at the state level or nationally....it could even be in their own inner circle at the least (Membership Code of Conduct) about the abuse or state law when they extend payments or outright don't pay subs when they are SUPPOSED to be legally paid. Most importantly, making it known that licensed contractors in most states are being hired by illegal contractors because they have no license or have no right to subcontract because they have no license in the state they are trying to contract work in or because they're just a broker working in some dark office as a facility coordinator.

Why isn't the Signage Foundation doing this when they have their meets with civil officials? Why is this NOT being reported in our Trade Magazines? Why is The California Sign Association not making this an issue with the California State Licensing Board and the Consumer Affairs Board??? Instead the CSA is just raising issue about members reporting illegal contractors when they see them on the road, or the CSA going social media about their participation on stings. The biggest act of criminalization is taking place with the use of a phone call from some individual or entity OUT of state, NOT some two bit hack installing signs on the weekend part time. It's time for the California Sign Association to go after the bigger fish. Do you go after the street corner pusher or the cartel? I assume CSA stands for "California", who should be taking California matters to heart. If that's the case with so many business's leaving California maybe it should be a priority to have that California money stay in California to it's California companies instead of it leaving gout of state to someone illegally? Maybe I'm off base with that, but at least it's a stab at it.

Where is YOUR leadership and what are THEY doing to protect this trade? This site is wonderful and all with the National Sign & Service Company Review Directory and great for discussion but I still have yet to see a movement come from within our Sign Associations. It's no loss or gain for me because I just don't do this kind of work, it just helps ME to know who I should collect from COD when the large national sign companies order sign supplies and I appreciate your comments and feedback but a lot of you are getting outright SCREWED, presented illegal contracts, contracts that want you to ILLEGALLY release your rights/lien ability everything that protects you and the consumer. This should be prosecutable by the RICO statues. Most insulting is supporting a Sign Association financially who doesn't even have YOUR best interest at heart, in fact, this site is mostly composed of sign company owners and to read what goes on out there, which is obviously growing and in issue, but these associations that you pay money too don't even have the courage to take on the issue because some of the guilty are on their committee boards, or are longtime chairs or committees. Their cowards for not doing so. I have yet to see any drive, information posted or published publicly ever. I have yet to see any of these sign associations move one positive inch towards heading this issue head on.

Don't you think it's great that these associations marketeers who are the core employees have never even worked for a sign company, ever worked for a contractor or construction company who depends on accounts receivables who get a regular check and are not being used as a bank to think it's okay because a larger portion of their membership are sticky shops, or print shops to take their financial interest over the licensed contractors who have earned their way into this TRADE because they bitch, whine and complain that they will lose money/go out of business if they cannot subcontract to licensed contractors.

Oh.....I'm sorry that you just opened up a franchise sticky shop and you cannot sell a channel letter sign, pylon sign or highrise sign and be/compete/execute contracts at the same level as a YESCO and have it subbed out. So sorry it hurts YOUR business, maybe YOU need to do what everyone else in this TRADE, I said TRADE...look it up! Earn your stripes...Go work for someone in the trade to understand the trade, to BE in the trade INSTEAD of taking SHORTCUTS and asking an organization to put something in YOUR hand. Life is NOT about taking shortcuts...freebees and entitlements, and this goes for the International Sign Association who enables the hacks of the industry (notice I did not say trade) in support by pushing bills legislation or even simply by omission to the problem.

I think a lot of you need to take a long hard look at what a lot of these Sign Associations have become. Yes, I know..they help out on some civil planning/zoning LED board disputes but their just a tool to the larger fray, their not the solution to that problem or issues. The people who really solve those issues are the local business's who are local tax payers and voters but you won't hear that. I think you need to realize that they have become too big too fast and all that merging all over the place with each other and with other similar industries that only have on thing in common and that's Advertising or marketing...from Electric Signs,T-shirts to Coffee Cups and laser engraved pens. Their marketing machines with a core of employed individuals who have never fabricated or installed a sign that depend on a regular paycheck that will only do what's popular and not what's right.

That's all....

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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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One reason I pay my subs quickly is because I want to maintain good relationships with them. If I have a project I need to throw a lot of help at, I know I can get the good people quickly - and with priority over those people needing them who take months to pay.

If I'm paying an independent contractor (neon wholesaler, extra tubebenders, hole diggers, painters, vacuum pan face makers, etc.), I'll usually pay them in full when THEIR job is done. Not mine. Not "when I get paid." The upside is that when I need help, I have people who will work for me at any hour of the day if needed. I can't imagine structuring my extended workforce any other way. Even other companies - like crane service, engineering, etc.. I almost always pay before 30 days is up.

I honestly don't understand the gains made by anyone taking 90+ days to pay. You might get away with it for a while, but everyone is going to eventually pad your invoice to make up for the interest they are carrying. You won't get the best people, or the best price, or even the most profitable jobs you really want.

Edited by megavolt512
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Disney used to pull that crap.

In the fine print for a lot of interior packages sold direct to major construction firms, you will often find the "you don't get paid till we get paid" statement. I never actually read the 400 page document till I wasn't getting paid from one of the largest construction firms on the eastern seaboard who had done work for the tribe (the indians) up in North Carolina.

Funny thing about tribes, they are federal case's when they don't pay and I had to wait till the lawyers were done spitting at each other to get paid.

The other side of it is bonding. If I take a job I'm required to install and it ties up part of my bond, I can't take more work till that bond clears. If they are pissy about one sign, I could be waiting a long long time. By outsourcing the install, I make it someone else's problem while covering my own ass.

It's shady and pathetic and you won't make any money on it. I personally enjoy getting them on the phone so I can laugh in their face.

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If they cannot pay within 30 days they can keep walking. Tune up your sales team if they can't find enough work to keep you busy without sucking up to these maggots who want you to front your money and then chase it.

Unfortunately they find enough suckers to take the deal eventually because it makes someone feel like they got a bunch of work through their shop. Oh yeah make room for the storage of their sign crates even if the site isn't built yet.

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  • !llumenati

I hear ya Paul,

A maintenance company in your neck of the woods stipulates 1/2 hour travel allowance. I told them it is 1 hour each way so you need to change your PO. Never heard back and then they were saying their customer was mad. Bit the bullet and went only because we had others to do there and realized it was more indepth than initially thought, so called because the NTE was exceeding and they got mad. Told them to send one of their own trucks which I see all the time running around.

it wouldnt happen to be a white dodge ram bucket truck would it

.......with black lettering Maybe?????

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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  • !llumenati

I hear ya Paul,

A maintenance company in your neck of the woods stipulates 1/2 hour travel allowance. I told them it is 1 hour each way so you need to change your PO. Never heard back and then they were saying their customer was mad. Bit the bullet and went only because we had others to do there and realized it was more indepth than initially thought, so called because the NTE was exceeding and they got mad. Told them to send one of their own trucks which I see all the time running around.

it wouldnt happen to be a white dodge ram bucket truck would it

.......with black lettering Maybe?????

GOOD things happen for a reason......

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This topic really annoys me.

We don't work for the big boys anymore because of our policies.

Want us to install a sign? Fine send the sign and send the check along with it(put it inside the raceway for safe keeping)

Want us to do a survey ? Fine we will do the survey and send you a link to it after you pay.

None of these big boys ever agree to our terms but we don't care.

I am so sick and tired of hearing"can you go service this sign it needs a transformer replaced and the budget for this is $200"

NO THANKS

Rant over

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It would be poetic justice if they got the same response from all. More realistic would be if sign shops would hold firm to a minimum like lets say 30 days, but..........like union issues there will always be Scabs. ( No, not the crust forming over a sore during healing ).

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All;

Read my response to the "Entera" thread.

At some point, the masses are going to wake up and put pressure on these "Predators" who are detrimental to Honest companies' health.

Best

"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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Imagine if the nationals got the same response from everyone they contacted.

What they are banking on is that they WON'T get the same response from everyone. IIRC the quote is "there's a sucker born every minute" and these nationals are figuring that there are sign companies that open every day. Go fix a XXXXXXX sign for us and some newbie will bite because that's a "great account to have", or so they think until they don't get paid.

And yes, I do love the "we have XXX budgeted for this job". One recent "emergency" service call with a budget was to fix an interior neon sign (obvious broken unit) that was 104 miles away from me - each way. Their budget was ~$300.00 and they wanted it done in one day.

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