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Erik Sine

A Race - Fluorescent vs Sloan LED SignBox II

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So I came across this over the weekend on Sloan LED's Sign Box II and thought I'd post here for anyone interested to kick it around on their spare time. I didn't even have to do much on this one myself but one thing I did see on the Fluorescent side of things is a lot of fumbling around for something that is pretty simple with the simplest kind of knockdown raceway that anyone can just about pick up from their local hardware stores these days. I thought I would finish, or tell the rest of the story not mentioned, and that's what our expected cost would be using one over the other to save in time and what our customer will expect to pay for it.

The Time Elapsed Video

The final product with time

post-3-0-87838100-1408376313_thumb.jpg

Let's break this down on cost, and cost of operation and take a look at what we just saw and how it relates to our cost, what we will have to sell it for, and what the consumer will have to pay for. Let's just call this a 6' x 5' double sided cabinet.

MATERIALS SHOP COST

LIGHT SOURCES (30')

5) 6' Fluorescent T12 800ma Lamps - $6.04 each x 5 = $30.20

5) 6' Fluorescent T8 800ma Lamps - $22.00 each x 5 = $110.00 (Long Life Lamps)

SignBoxII 20' Roll @ $390.54 each x 2 = $781.08

10' left over, or waste ($195.27)

LAMP SOCKETS / CLAMPS/BRACKETS

10) HO Sockets $1.35 each x 10 = $13.50

Sloan LED's SignBox II LED

Bag of 16 SignBox Clamps = $21.84

Brackets $7.62 each x 10 = $76.20

POWER SUPPLIES

1) HO Ballast (48' Load) = $62.95

2) Sloan LED Power Supplies $54.05 each x 2 = $108.10

POWER

8 Hours a day, 365 days a year. Annual cost of operation.

T12 10.7 watts per foot x 30' = 321 watts

321 watts x 8hours x 365 days x $.12kwh / 1050 power correction = $107.12 annual cost of operation for 8 hours a day

T8 8.37 watts per foot x 30' = 251.25 watts

251.25 watts x 8hours x 365 days x $.12kwh / 1050 power correction = $83.84 annual cost of operation for 8 hours a day

Sloan LED's SignBox II 6 modules per foot @ .9 watts = 5.4 watts/foot x 30 = 162 watts

162 watts x 8hours x 365 days x $.12kwh / 1050 power correction = $54.06 annual cost of operation for 8 hours a day

TOTAL SYSTEM COST BEFORE LABOR

T12 = $106.65

T8 = $186.45

Sloan LED's SignBox II = $987.22

SAVING IN COST OF OPERATION

Sloan LED's SignBox II vs T12 49% or $53.06 savings using SignBox in annual cost of operation

Sloan LED's SignBox II vs T8 35% or $29.78 savings using SignBox in annual cost of operation

MATERIAL COST SAVINGS

T12 vs Sloan LED's SignBox II = $880.57 89% Saving using a T12 system vs Sloan LED's SignBox II

T8 vs Sloan LED's SignBox II = $800.77 81% Saving using a T12 system vs Sloan LED's SignBox II

CONSUMER RETURN ON INVESTMENT USING Sloan LED's SIGNBOX II

T12 $880.57 Material Cost Saving / $54.06 Cost of Operation = 16.28 Years

T8 $800.77 Material Cost Saving / $29.78 Cost of Operation = 29.55 Years

VIDEO SAVING TIME

26 minutes 34 seconds 1 man labor at Journeyman = $33.00 per hour / 2 1/2 hour = $16.50 saving in labor using SignBoxII

Now for the question to all of you. How much would you sell that 6'x5' (30sq') double sided cabinet for with simple faces (White with black lettering) as a Fluorescent and as a Sloan LED's SignBox II System fabrication & installation?

What will your profit margin be?

As a sign shop are we making money paying for and using a higher cost system? In the amount of time it takes to fabricate a complete sign cabinet are we loosing out on money keeping it conventional which has the lower cost and more proprietary (custom)?

Now slightly away from this subject an in another subject to think about.

What's to keep our trade to becoming as a commodity where the consumer can just go to HomeDepot and put their own LED system in where they just peel and stick?

Now a day even schools have wide format printers, so vinyl and printing aren't really apart of the sign trade anymore. The only thing that's left IMO is sign painting, conventional back-lighting and Neon.

When it comes to a mom & pop store sign just about anyone now a day can keep up a sheet of plex, anyone can print film, and just about anyone can pick up LEDs from a lighting store. What will keep our industry as a trade and be turned into a commodity which is the direction being pushed by those outside of our trade ? Large sign programs? Are we killing our own trade by not building unique and proprietary signs that does save money for us and the consumer?

just some thoughts I'd throw out there since so many light source manufacturers are trying to dictate to the sign shop labor and cost and what they should be charging for retrofits like Ventex markets

Are we soon to be just the middleman, the means for manufacturers to sell their products


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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In 5 years the lamps will still be lit. Wonder how the LED's will be performing?

I had a national come to me with this product. They wanted me to retro fit a bunch of monument/pole signs. They had allotted about the same time to install the Sloan product. Left out, all the retro fit time.. I passed...

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They wanted to use you to be the middleman, charge a short time cheap labor cost and probably no fuel charge, trip time etc, etc, while they charge the consumer an arm and a leg to save 50% savings in energy probably sold as 80% and didn't bother to mention that it would take 16+ years to make it back, or 40 years depending on how much it was sold for.

Shake and Bake

post-3-0-76854300-1408381091.png

or

Turn & Burn!


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Yup, another project / product that doesn't fit into my business plan.

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What you guys are failing to disclose, is that the guy on the right, who looks curiously like the guy on the left, had a Magical Apron on which allowed him to gain superhuman powers. It was this apron that made the difference.

I would like to see a fair comparison with both fellas wearing the Magical Apron while assembling..............

Best


"Don't be afraid to see what you see" - President Ronald Reagan

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I was going to blow off watching the video since I have seen such things before....Glad I didn't. Just 1 comment....How many times did the fluorescent guy put the bottom right side raceway cover on and off? I didn't count but bet it was over 10 times. If I saw one of my shop guys having that much trouble fitting a simple .040 cover he would be "re-trained" as the state of CT calls it, then canned. I saw a lot of wasted movement there. Whoops what am I thinking this was a Sloan video. How many times will the LED's be replaced over the RIO period? Oh yes that pushed ROI even further out to like NEVER.

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I must also add this last tidbit because I don't want anyone to misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not coming to any conclusion that Fluorescent is THE best choice overall, there are many instances where it's better to pay more for an LED system for a cabinet rather than a fluorescent system, example high rise building or an area that makes it very difficult or expensive to service.

But on the everyday level of applications, the public as well as sign shops have very awkward skewed conclusion that an LED system is a better choice based on time, or of the opinion that LEDs have a short ROI and that the user is saving 80%, or being told they are.

If you're not using high powered LEDs and the sign is in a heavy populated area of other signs, chances are the LED cabinets are going to have a very hard time competing for visibility because their not as bright. Too many times do I see consumers being told their saving on energy because their new sign is only 1.2 watts a foot vs the old 4 watts a foot only to find out that once the was opened the sign company actually had to double or triple the amount of product to give it the same visible light that it once was or to compete with the surroundings. So now their ROI is NOT what they were sold on, what was once supposed to be 1.2 watts a foot is now 3.2 watts per foot. I think I've posted pictures of this instance in the past, the clients were not happy after they just paid for 6+ locations.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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there are many instances where it's better to pay more for an LED system for a cabinet rather than a fluorescent system, example high rise building or an area that makes it very difficult or expensive to service.

Voltarc's 60K "max" florescents are definitely a strong competitor to LED's in a situation like that:

F96T8 HO - 7467 lumens, 101 lumes/watt, 60k hours, Lumen maint: 80% @ 60K - $23/lamp

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