Holysemolians

I have a certain take on this, don't know if it helps or not. Among male baboons socialization with other male baboons mainly consists of teeth baring and yowling. The louder yowl and more menacing teeth usually wins. Occasionally there is biting and then the "loser" quits when he doesn't want to get bit any more. This establishes rank and the lower ranking males generally don't get the alpha females. (Plus the other monkeys seem to like to kick his ass all the time.) The older males can't yowl as loud any more but find other activities (than competing for the alpha females). The females on the other hand generally engage in nit-picking and hair cleaning and stroking when socializing with other females. We THINK this is done in order to rise in rankings among females, since lower ranking females more often seek out higher ranking females. But rank among females amongst each other is not generally dependent on violence or biting power, but rather by matrilineal heredity or stroking up the ladder. Cross gender socialization seems to purpose toward mating and protection of infants and newborns. The analogy to this websites clique (used in a neutral sense) is that 1) males are more apt to engage in what you called negative behavior. I'm not going to tell so and so his shirt is nice looking. This never occurs to me. But females on the other hand do this alot in my experience. The clique is male dominated in my perception as it stands. 2) Males are less apt to use the so called "negative behavior" with females. Notice you started the thread with a negative bent but no one pointed this out. So the solution is that you gals have to be willing to put in your two cents more often about the function and interdynamics of the sign business. In 22 yrs I'm sure you have opinions and perceptions worth hearing. This is a male dominated clique for now, but it doesn't have to be. There is a cross gender barrier which I believe makes women hesitate to speak out here. But it is not our fault that the sign business doesn't involve sex or babies. We would welcome your input, believe us. As a guilty party who has certainly engaged in negative behavior on this site although I don't consider myself part of the clique, I state that it is not an ideal state of reality (the website).

1) I didn't vote for O. Just said he is a smooth talker. Seemed to have pushed your buttons right from the start. I didn't vote at all. 2) Never said you are corrupt in any shape or form regarding the experiments. There may be temptations toward data scewing but I have no knowledge of what they are or whether you are honest or dishonest. No information on this subject. No indications or intuitions either. 3) The printer did not work from the box had to be sent back only works with ONE VERSION of Corel which isn't even the most recent one has a loose gear which he DID NOT fix he only fixed it enough to make a video cannot work from reading the manual alone and the rep wouldn't even pay the shipping back since he said I killed the printer which I did not do, does NOT work and probably CANNOT work. Enough said and I as tired of rehashing this over and over as anyone else is of reading it. You did not read the whole thread and claim to have enough information to say I am too stupid to work the machine. I've used a Gerber Saber router since 1996 never had issues and a Roland SC-545EX never had issues. Along with my plotter and Arete's return making system. It is a piece of shit from China and has no money back guarantee which even Harbor Freight will give you. 4) Yo brother, cool down what the hell, I was mad before because you killed my thread; I was only trying to say that I'm not mad anymore about that and do not think anymore that you were just kowtowing to Grubby's demands. 5) My issue with this site is that I felt criticised by many and agreed with by very few actually only one directly. On an impersonal level it only means that I did not accomplish my agenda. On a personal level it means that I do not appreciate being called stupid by my peers. You will lose customers that way although I doubt this will stop you. I am not entirely computer literate but I can run the machines I need to and their attendant softwares. The monkey troupe decided long ago that I am not a ranking monkey. Guess that means I'm not invited to have a beer with you all next year at ISA. If I view this troup as a clique it is because I see alot of teeth baring and precious little support. This monkey stands alone, so be it. 6) My wife says I'm not the smartest egg in the basket and if I was smarter I'd be rich and retired. Amen. Made some nice signs though, recently.

Well I half believed your spiel for a few moments. You are a smooth talker, like Barak Obama, our president. Sounded good and without pushing the the readers buttons, something me and XYZ could both learn from. Even got me asking myself, was my agenda not including anyone else and only self serving? More importantly was I wrong about you being biased toward the supplier? Or toward your buddy the blabbermouth? Yes and no, I have always been upfront about my agenda. Revenge against the one who bit me and to help the little guy, the other signmaker who could be in the same position, to warn him. He is a little guy because he doesn't have money to buy the bigger and more automated machines. Someone whom XYZ would not necessarily bother with, since he doesn't buy product like the mid to big manufacturers. He is the little guy who paid you a members fee who does or does not contribute to thread conversations. He is also the little guy who is viewing what he can without paying the membership fee. I am speaking of being in the clique (conversationers) or outside the clique (lurkers and members who do not converse). You see, you have very carefully kept a neutral stance on my thread, perfectly natural for a moderator who has paying customers from both sides, the supplier and the signmaker. Actually commendable since vendor membership and advertising fees are more than the vendees fees. Your position was neutral with the one exception when you criticised me for not going to other companies and peers in the industry to ask for advice before I bought the printer. I refrained from direct criticism back even though it struck me that websites such as this one are replacing after hour beers in someone else's shop or phone chat. That reply implied that YOU KNEW I got screwed (and yes, I was STUPID for not reading the fine print or catching on somehow that this rep and company was illigitimate). Okay, so how does this situation differ from the definition of "unbiased?" Your readers expect for instance an "unbiased" experiment using different manufacturers of LED modules. Neutral in the sense that you are not favoring one supplier over another. But bias TOWARD THE TRUTH regarding the performance of the different products. The TRUTH is that you KNOW I got screwed but never said so just as everyone else in the clique has done with the single exception I believe of Travis. It was darn well obvious despite my lack in organising and writing my position. In order for other sign manufacturers to have faith in you, I humbly suggest that simply reinforcing the TRUTH would have been better. Neutrality does not mean unbiased. Okay, so you can criticise me back. The truth is everyone who read that thread knew I got screwed royally. If they have any sense at'all. As far as killing the thread goes, I would have liked for lurkers to be able to see it directly. I understand that member and frequent readers have gotten tired of it. It was your decision and I can't do anything about it anyway.

Well, you were my other antithesis. And patronizing to the end. Any half-wit signmaker knows that a product which will not work directly with Flexisign or Signlab, the two most widely used SIGN softwares in the U.S. is not legitimate. THAT SINGLE FACT ALONE PROVES MY POSITION. But no, you had to point out my failings over and over and then state the problem to be mutual misunderstanding. But I was not fighting with you directly or really caring one way or the other about your opinion. Because of course, you are a supplier and it is "disruptive" to this segment of the online community for people to rant about suppliers in general as a precedent. YOUR BIAS is that you are not in the shoes of the poor smuck who bought the product and then had to live with it. YOU my friend are on the other end of the deal. I have posted on other discussions and will again if they interest me. I don't need allies or "ears." If my post dragged out too long, then I apologise. If people really don't like to see this topic anymore in the headlines, then okay.

The message board is for general rants, or just shooting the shit. By definition. But is it unbiased? I think not. Because one member in particular has taken an extreme view on one subject and harassed his buddy the moderator to shut down the thread I originated, he succeeded. This proves the site is a clique and I take offense at this. I have flamed or said bad things about another company who is a supplier and a particular representative. But this is a common occurence on this site and especially by the moderator himself; as we are all in the same business it behooves us to keep in touch about suppliers or other companies who can potentially do us harm. If my thread seems redundant then skip it, but to stop it altogether is not fair in a free and democratic society. Why don't you take a vote and then kill it? Or not. No, Chubby is your BUD and he is killing you with his demands. I know because I've received some pretty nasty emails which make me wonder if this guy is even totally sane. Maybe he would even travel all the way to Austin and do a postal who knows. Well are you unbiased enought to even post this? High Voltage or Westcoast Sign Guy or whoever you are? I doubt it.

I don't think the readers really believe you Chubby. Otherwise I would have gotten many an offer on the printer long ago. From any of the readers who read the thread but do not express their opinion of Easy Channel Letters or Neil Fancher the rep. 1/3 price for a printer that has never been used? It really has to be a piece of s%$t in order not to sell. I stand by my characterization of the company and the representative. Like I said before, the readers can decide. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE PRINTER CAN WORK TO SOME DEGREE AT LEAST. But it does not work for me and has been a major pain in the cabeza since day one. It took 3 wks before they would even send me the ONLY software which will work for the printer which is Corel version 10. It is unclear whether they do this as standard procedure, or because I was a pain in the butt. But why does anyone have to go through the headache to even find out the above? Okay, okay, old story. I thought you were blocking this thread. What made you change your mind? This is not YOUR website hermano.

Why don't you buy the printer and prove me wrong? I remember sometime back you were saying to the Let-R-Sign guy you thought his printer was cool. Buy this one for a fraction of the cost, could you use it for your shop?

That would make me a salesman and not a signmaker. I suck at sales. But the big guys in Austin have automated benders and there must be some way to get those letters made faster, smoother, cheaper. The printer is still for sale. I am bumping the old thread.

1000.00 for the whole package as is. 1/3 price. Hell, Easy Channel Letters can buy it and sell it again to some poor sucker at this price. Going once....

That is, the BROTHER of the guy in Chicago. Even the last name might strike a bell over there.

Well, I'm kind of interested too if he was bullsh%$tting me so I'll get his full name. I think he is Jim over at CS2 Cad Specialties a digital print supplier in Austin. Too late right now.

The guy who told me his brother was doing well in Chicago was for a short time a salesman for the guy in the Sign-a-Rama just north of me, the one who lost his whole 100,000.00 plus investment. He said it is just so much harder in Austin to do business... I heard in college that 9 out of 10 businesses as a whole go under in the first 5 yrs so....I'm not saying it is a rip-off, but their sales pitch with all the bells and whistles are not necessarily the reality at least in a competitive environment. The problem with a "vinyl shop" is that they are a dime a dozen. So you can do digital, so after a few years you can confidently broker electric to some degree...so you can do ADA and figure out screenprinting. But all except the vinyl work and possibly basic digital prints takes more time and energy to do well, more than a few weeks of training can accomplish. Not to mention the creative or artsy side of signmaking whereby you are giving the customer a pleasing and effective graphic. The Sign-a-Rama north of me went down fast and hard. But the other two lasted years before fading away. The only one left in Austin has only been around since around Nov. or so. Unless I am unaware of some other one hiding somewhere in town. Bit of trivia: the retired Signs Now owner was Bill Bailey who bought the (according to him) very first Signs Now before it was even a franchise. He paid no royalties, I don't think. But somehow wound up with the rights to the whole south side of the city. Haven't heard about him for a few yrs. Hope you are still alive, Bill. Fellow transplanted Alaskan; he had a gas station in Girdwood before moving to Austin.

The first Fastsigns in Austin I believe was in the early 80's went belly up. Then no FS franchises here for 5 yrs or so we did have 2 Signs Now and one or two Sign-a-Ramas. Now we have four FS I think and they are all going how well I don't know. The owner of three of them died a few years back and they were resold was the rumor. But it was significant that I believe FS started in Dallas and couldn't make it here only down the road. They had 23 in Dallas at the same time there were none here apparently. But the last three Sign-a-Ramas have gone belly up and there is only one in Austin I think on the south side, brand new. I have talked to one of these owners who used me for CNC routering. He kept asking around if anyone wanted to buy his franchise. We asked him about the royalties and he said the advertising "more than paid for the percentage." But the last year he stopped paying the percentage and told one of our suppliers he just couldn't handle it. Then he was trying to sell the franchise after a significant time of not paying royalties. He finally did sell, but the owner moved out of town somewheres else I think. Another SR was just 3 miles north of my previous location and only lasted about 8 mos. He went down hard; I talked to him towards the end when he was referred to me for some digital printing while his printer was being fixed. His story was nightmarish to say the least; salesmen who stole jobs away, having to work a day job while his wife ran the shop in order to pay expenses, etc. He was in a high dollar strip mall and I kept saying to other signowners, this guy has to gross 2000.00 per day just to pay payroll and overhead plus get the required profit and they were looking at me like nowayjose. But it must have been true...one thing he DID say was he got just a few weeks of training and then got put out there to the wolves. There's no way in my mind you can learn enough to survive in this time period unless you get some mighty big accounts mighty fast. I.E. you get real lucky or you are in a good environment which has high demand and not too much competition. One guy I DID talk to said his brother was doing well in a Sign-A-Rama grossing 70,000.00 per month, but it wasn't here in Austin, but rather Chicago. On the rich side of town. The two Signs Now were interestingly enough given the whole city as territory to two guys. Who so far will not sell at the offered price any of their territory which was I believe 50,000 which was for I don't know how much of the respective pies. So there won't be any more Signs Now in the near future in Austin unless the price goes up or the one guy who retired gives up his share for the offered price. The other guy told me he won't sell.

It occured to me that there are readers who might think this printer is not a rip-off after all. It has already kind of amazed me that people can have totally opposite perceptions over the same event. The O.J. Simpson murder trial comes to mind whereby 70% of black people in one study thought he was innocent and probably framed and 70% of white people had the exact opposite view. They were all viewing the same trial and evidence. Therefore I am offering this printer, software and accessories for 1/2 price, never used which comes to 1500.00 even. The printer has never been used and is in the same condition I originally received it. Chubby? Oh, I forgot you have x'd me out.

Agree. My mistake. As Fancher says in this thread 2x and on the contract 1x you need to make an informed decision. And this thread and it's purpose is to do exactly that. To inform others of this product and how I got ripped off. To visit other shops, to talk to other signmakers and to monitor their progress is what this forum is all about and why I am here. I realize I look pretty stupid for not reading the fine print or making sure of the information which might be out there. But MY information is now out there and others can take note. Austin is still in some ways a small town, and we get by with a handshake on most things, believe it or not. I've been ripped off on sign jobs in 22yrs less than I can count on both hands. But that is no excuse in this global economy and I'm giving no excuses. If I'm coming off like a blockhead, so be it. No one reading this thread will buy that printer from Easy Channel Letters LLC, unless they are even dumber than me.

Funny how two people who seem to be entirely rational can come to the exact opposite conclusion. Travis was about the only one who said Fancher was an ass. Chubby thinks Fancher is okay and I'm the ass. No, I didn't read the fine print on the bottom of the contract until I decided to return the machine. It was too late, at the time Fancher was HOLDING the machine at his office. Refer back and it was apparent that this is part of his strategy. Instead of fixing the machine or even looking at it right away he made some excuse about not having a standard parallel port and held it for 7 days. 2 days longer than the contract required for him to cheat me out of the whole pot. They have still not answered my email which asks where is the reverse channel letter choice in the options window. Also if the printer is an "A," "B," or "C" printer which is a required field. These are not hard questions, but Tammy referred me to Fancher who neglected to answer them. After 30 days and the machine still doesn't work? And Chubby you say he made an honest effort with me? No, I think you and me got crossways, and you aren't seeing this whole thing straight. Fancher has made NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER in the last two weeks except to send me an email saying my Corel 10 was too low a version to work. Which he could have told me 2 weeks previous if he even knew it. I spent 3 hours trying to download off of their site in vain the Corel 12 which is the ONLY sign software which will work with the printer. Then waited 4 more days. Yes he would like to see this thread disappear. But now I am stuck with it and have to make it work as well as it will no matter how long it takes or how long I have to harass them. Funny how he used a car sales analogy. If you bought a USED, PIECE OF SH%T CAR, then his behavior is analogous. But the machine was new and I paid way too much for what I got. He never admitted that the machine was already returned for the reason that a GEAR was out of place and disengaged. And STILL is not fixed, proven by the fact that it was out of place AGAIN when I received it back. I had to push it back manually, and it is an ongoing defect. I am way too stupid to get his system to work, but the Arete system without the printer was working for my jobs in two days using an output not even advertised by them. Their software works off my Flexi 8 and outputs into my ancient Graphix Advantage for my router as well as back into Flexi for my printer/cutter. I used the system easily, smoothly and with almost no glitches. One thing, Neil Fancher. Your peers in the industry are seeing you here. I've personally spoken to three of your competitors and they are all laughing about you and your products and your personal way of doing business. You are the sleaze bucket bottom of the barrel lowlife in the industry at every trade show you go to. We will be watching you. My last "threat" email you posted is not a threat at all because you are not getting away with my money scot free.

I am giving up at this point on the Easy Channel Letter System. It has been more than 30 days and the printer will not work even with the file Fancher converted for my sign job. The questions I asked Tammy, the other company contact regarding the software window progression confused her and she referred me back to Fancher, who is on an install. The software I received for Corel 12 was a copy with the serial registration written by hand on the disk. This is too much and I am out the 870.00 restocking charge the contract specifies. It remains to be seen whether or not or how fast the 70% refund will occur. This product and it's rep is in my view a "1" on a scale from 1 to 10 with "1" being the worst rip-off known to the sign business. I know for a fact I have never been ripped off by anyone in 22 years as bad as this company. Anyone buying any product from the Easy Channel Letter System should take heed that it is POSSIBLE they can get a different product to work, but that for now, the return label printer is a rip-off and a scam. As a contrast, I recently installed an Epson printer and it took 20 mins. with the instructions readable to a 9 yr old. This is state of the art customer-user friendly and came with an easy install guide as well as a READABLE in English user manual. As another contrast the Arete ReturnRoute system had few glitches and was usable at once when I outputted to my printer/cutter on paint mask. They didn't even advertise their system to work this way, but rather initially only as a software for ROUTING the return! I gained value from this system right away in a few days. The software readily converted my Flexi 8 .dxf files and the previously mentioned inside bend points on the acute angle bends were adjusted to a much more tolerable level with one email and adjustment on the setup window. This system is now one half the price of the Easy Channel Letter printer system. There is no printer, but a plotter will work if you don't mind translating a cut line to either an inside or outside bend. Also the girl who spoke with me on the phone was prompt and knows much more about how the software works.

Update: Corel 12 still has not arrived. Has been almost 30 days since the Easy Channel Letter printer first arrived in my shop. Update on ReturnRoute by Arete: Adjusted a few variables and have so far made a label out of paint mask vinyl printed on my Roland print and cut. I contour cut the outside of each label and the print lines show whether the bend is out or in. Angle of bend is manual which I don't mind (Easy Channel Letter system tells you exact numerical angle). This system can work as a plotter cut label except you can't distinguish between out bends and in bends. Or I've not figured out how this can happen anyway. The only problem I'm having is with the extreme angle reverse bends (out). The software is figuring too much of a "point" and doesn't "hug" the bend close enough. I will explain what this is more clearly next. The girl at Arete said to try something which I will do tomorrow. This label system is already saving time and energy. I just peel the paint mask off and apply it flush to both edges on the return matl. without any transfer tape. My finger brake distorts the mask at the bend but so far doesn't seem to distort the position at the next one.

I finally got inspired enough to try the EZ Channel software 5.1 again using the converted file Tammy sent from the company already converted to Corel 12 .dxf. The file DID import although for a split second it looked like it would crash again. But the options page did not show a return channel letter option. And I was supposed to tell the computer if this printer is an "A," "B," or "C" printer which the manual said was given by a notice in the box. Never saw any such notice; could have been lost in the 25 days we messed around with the hardware. So two irritating problems right off the bat getting the software to work which I will have to ask Tammy about tomorrow since it is after hours. If the software cannot distinguish between regular channel letters as opposed to regular channel letters, then it is WORSE than crapola, and I cannot believe this to be true.ezoptions.pdfezoptions2.pdf

Update: Easy Channel Letters is sending me a CD in the mail since their FTP site could not download all the files including the serial number file I needed to activate the software (Corel12). I have not worked on the alternate system (ReturnRoute) yet. I do not think they were screwing me over the software; the lady I'm now dealing with said another person had the same problem with the download. They also sent me a converted file which is the reverse channel letter job pending in my shop. Results coming up. Has been 25 days since I first got the Easy Channel Letter printer. The original sales rep. who is called "Head of Operations," on the telephone, Neil Fancher apparently has referred me to the graphics specialist and has not responded to me or been on the board for a while.