MET Southeast

I'd like to thank you Erik for presenting this forum and I would like to thank all of you that have called or emailed our office to date to find out more about our service. It has truly been a pleasure to speak with all of you and I look forward working together with many of you in the future. I would also like to offer my services to the forum to try to answer any compliance questions that may come up. Phil

Dave, There must be something missing. If the UL inspector really said that all of the components in a cabinet sign had to be listed and that recognized components just wouldn’t make it, that’s curious to me. Product recognitions usually apply to products that are not a stand alone piece of equipment. They are components of a larger end product. These components are evaluated to the standard that applies to that component. Once the component is used in a larger product, the overall product is then review to the most applicable standard for it. For example if we look at a hand held drill, there is an electric motor inside that drives the bit. The motor is a recognized component and could be certified to UL1004 (Electric Motors). With recognized components, there are conditions of acceptability or considerations that must be reviewed depending on how the component is being used or what type of end product it is being installed in. The hand held drill once assembled would then be listed to UL745-1 (Portable Electric Tools) and UL745-2-1 (Particular Requirements for Drills). Recognized Components are intended for factory installation in end-product or equipment where the limitations of use are known to the end-product manufacturer and where their use is within such limitations as evaluated by UL. The conditions of acceptability of the recognized component need to be compatible with the specific end product application. TelfordDorr is exactly correct in his statement. I think eng0270’s assessment is probably right, it probably wasn’t the fact that the component was only recognized, it was that it wasn’t in the SAM. Phil

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE PRLog (Press Release) – Jun 19, 2009 – For the first time in the history of Product Safety, MET Laboratories is offering an alternative to the Underwriters Laboratories UL 48 Listed Sign Shop. The new program is affordable and business friendly, breaking the multi-decade UL monopoly for this important product category. Most UL certification product categories require the manufacturer to list specific products and record every component in a “Listing” report. If there are any changes to the product, the testing lab must be notified and review the new parts for acceptability. Sometimes re-testing is required for significant changes. The Listed Sign Shop program is different. Sign manufacturers who qualify are allowed to make many different signs, varying in size and design. To qualify, there is an initial training program resulting in a list of qualified sign builders. The sign builders are trained to understand the UL standard and other National Electrical Code regulations, then they have the ability to create many different signs as long as the rules for design and construction are followed. After the initial training and qualification, MET Laboratories will send inspectors to the sign shop at various times of the year. At these inspections, any products available will be reviewed, the personnel list verified and updated, and file of completed projects gone through. Also, these visits will be an opportunity for the sign shop managers and personnel to get questions answered, receive assistance, and plan for the future with current product safety news and technology standards updates. Several years ago, MET started offering a similar program for builders of industrial control panels, UL 508A and UL 698A. This program has been a huge success, and many panel shops switched over from UL to MET. Now the same benefits can be enjoyed by sign shop owners across the US. Phil Henning, a technical sales representative for MET Laboratories’ Southeast office has been receiving numerous calls and e-mails from sign manufacturers. “Many of these businesses are frustrated with the UL monopoly for Listed Signs. There are reports that UL may be taking advantage of these businesses, using hidden fees and cost increase tactics that make these products more expensive by adding unnecessary requirements that have nothing to do with electrical safety. Most people realize that only having one choice for a service is no choice at all. Our new program gives sign makers another, better choice from the only option that has ever been available”, says Henning. “We look forward to helping these companies make their products more affordable and their operations easier to run”. Phil Henning can be contacted at 800-321-4655, at the MET Laboratories Southeast headquarters and testing facility in Cary, NC. The MET Southeast office engineering team will be performing the actual training and factory inspections. The MET Southeast office has been in the Raleigh-Durham RTP area for over 16 years. MET is a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL), approved by OSHA to certify multiple product categories. For information on MET, go to www.osha.gov and select “N” from the alphabetical menu. You can then look at the OSHA scope of accreditation for MET Laboratories. You will notice UL 48 early in the list. # # # About MET Laboratories. MET Laboratories was the first NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory) to break the UL monopoly for product safety certification

Unfortunately, no matter who puts a sign program together, there is going to be a high enough expense at our end, that it is unlikely we would be able to get a program like this cost effective for smaller sign shops or lower producers. I've heard a lot of people say that not all jurisdictions are enforcing the label reuirement. I know that to be true. I might suggest that you look into having those signs that the inspectors are tagging "Field Evaluated". A field evaluation is for specific products at specific locations. The cost of the field evaluation depends mostly on were it is located in proportion to the lab doing the review. An average field evaluation wouldcost somewhere around $2000. Obviously, if you are doing a large enough quantity, it might be more cost effective to go with the sign shop. Also keep in mind. OSHA has a federal requirement that all equipment in the work place be listed or labeled by a NRTL. Although some of the inspectors may not being enforcing the NEC the same across the US, I'm pretty confident that if an accident happened with on of your signs, killing or injuring someone, OSHA would do an investigation and write sitations for the facility owner. That facility owner will likely turn around and consider legal again against the sign fabricator/Installer. If you have a third party label on your sign, there's proof that you have attempted to meet all of the safety requirements.

West Coast Sign Guy, As for the channel letters labels, we are still open to suggestions. What would you recommend? Your second question is a little confusing to me so let me try to answer what I think you're asking. I said "If you chose direct imprint, it is a $600 fee a year and you must follow the format of the MET logo but you can have it etched into your manufactures name plate or you can have the labels printed yourself". The manufactures name plate or "ID" as you refer to it is what I was talking about. I believe the standard requires it be made of a durable material (many use aluminum) and contain the manufacturer information and the ratings of the equipment. It is usually required to be affixed next to the main or first power source in. With the direct imprint option, you have the option of adding the MET art work to that plate. OR you can leave the plate absent of the MET logo and affix have seperate labels which you would affix right next to the name plate. For box signs, that should be all that is required. But now you bring up a good point with channel letters and the possible need for association labels. Tell me what you would like to see. I hope that explains my statement clearly. Best regards, Phil

I hate when that happens

Aaron, I would prefer to send out specific proposals. There are some variables that affect the pricing. High Voltage has posted some of the base pricing on another thread here, and may have responded to you directly. For conversion from UL to MET, the conversion fee is $950. That covers the engineering time to convert all of the paperwork and put your file together. There are 4 Follow up audits for the first year. The first audit is $200 more because it is the introductory audit and is expected to be more in depth. If a shop completes four consecutive audits with no discrepancies, they can apply to drop down to two audits a year. There is no annual fee. We do not charge fines for discrepancies. We do not charge fines if you do not have product on hand at the time of our audit. If we find a discrepancy, it will be noted and expected to be fixed before our next audit. If we continue to run into problems you may be subject to having your labels pulled. For label pricing: If you chose direct imprint, it is a $600 fee a year and you must follow the format of the MET logo but you can have it etched into your manufactures name plate or you can have the labels printed yourself. If you elect just purchase the labels from MET, there is again a $600 licensing fee and then the labels are $1 ea, minimum purchase is a roll of 108. It has been pointed out that MET is higher up front, but you see significant savings in the second year. For many of you that I have heard from that is true. Still I have heard from other shops that are paying $425/month, plus the annual fee , the label fee, ect. We set this pricing as low as we could without losing money. Our shop was developed in response to a call for help. It has been said that UL is abusing the customers. Well, I can’t verify that. Some of you may be able too. Our existence just might cause UL to change their behavior. If not, we would welcome you to MET. Phil

Aaron, I would prefer to send out specific proposals. There are some variables that affect the pricing. High Voltage has posted some of the base pricing on another thread here, and may have responded to you directly. For conversion from UL to MET, the conversion fee is $950. That covers the engineering time to convert all of the paperwork and put your file together. There are 4 Follow up audits for the first year. The first audit is $200 more because it is the introductory audit and is expected to be more in depth. If a shop completes four consecutive audits with no discrepancies, they can apply to drop down to two audits a year. There is no annual fee. We do not charge fines for discrepancies. We do not charge fines if you do not have product on hand at the time of our audit. If we find a discrepancy, it will be noted and expected to be fixed before our next audit. If we continue to run into problems you may be subject to having your labels pulled. For label pricing: If you chose direct imprint, it is a $600 fee a year and you must follow the format of the MET logo but you can have it etched into your manufactures name plate or you can have the labels printed yourself. If you elect just purchase the labels from MET, there is again a $600 licensing fee and then the labels are $1 ea, minimum purchase is a roll of 108. It has been pointed out that MET is higher up front, but you see significant savings in the second year. For many of you that I have heard from that is true. Still I have heard from other shops that are paying $425/month, plus the annual fee , the label fee, ect. We set this pricing as low as we could without losing money. Our shop was developed in response to a call for help. It has been said that UL is abusing the customers. Well, I can’t verify that. Some of you may be able too. Our existence just might cause UL to change their behavior. If not, we would welcome you to MET. Phil

Erik, MET is still developing the details of other aspects of the sign shop program as run by UL. That would entail the us of UL2161. For Established shops that already have that program established, we will convert over to MET with no change. For new sign shops that want to include that in the program, that is were we are still working out the details.

Oh, by the way Brian, MET does not fine shops for violations. If a violation is identified, shops are usually given the opportunity to correct it before the next audit. If it is not corrected, we may chose to pull the labels. If it is initially a very obvious flagerant violation we may pull the labels on the spot. We could also possibly increase the number of audits on frequent violators. We value our clients and we hope they value our responsibility. When there is mutual respect, the number of issues seem to deminish.

esimmons76, Thank you for the added explanation. You are absolutely correct in saying that if there were a problem with our label we would get immediately involved. What you are referring to with ETL is an actual listing. Up until now, we have been for example with American Greetings listing individual designs to UL48, or a family of very similar designs. The listing as I'm sure you know is far more restrictive because the file is written to detail every aspect of the product. regular audits are done comparing products to the file to ensure they haven't changed. If they have, then the customer must submit a file revision request. If the product is custom or continually changing it can get very expensive and just isn't practical. There are two specific programs that MET has and I know UL has that allow the shop to be certified. The Industrial Panel Program and now the Sign Shop Program. These programs are specifically set up anticipating variations in product and allowing that flexibility while still maintaining the NRTL's responsibility to OSHA. With MET's program, a new client would be required to have 4 follow up audits within the first year. If the sign shop passes those four audits with no discrepancies consecutively, the second year they can be allowed to drop to two audits. There are a great many variables that affect the pricing of the program so it wouldn’t be practical for me to post pricing here. I will be glad to provide you a proposal if you would like to email me a request. The email is: philh@productsafet.com. Geraldi, I think I’d like to join you at that observation.

Thank you Erik. You beat me to the punch with your answer. Thanks for that as well. Phil

Geraldi, There are inspectors across the United States that don't fully understand the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) System. There are 15 NRTL's of those, only 7 are authorized by OSHA to certify to UL48. Of those 7 I am only aware of 3 including MET that offer sign shops. Here http://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html is the link that explains the NRTL program. All of the NRTL's use the same UL standards to certify equipment. So technically, one could say a product is UL certified, Underwriters Laboratories testing division just didn't perform the review. It has been my experience that "UL certified" is just a term to mean third party certified. Most of us use facial tissue to blow our nose, but we refer to that as a Kleenex even if its another brand. Regardless, if your signs are MET Listed, the inspectors are required to accept the equipment. They may still tag you for the installation though. Brian, MET was the nations first Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory. We've had the capability to list signs for some time. We just were'nt interested in developing a sign shop program. We continued to get calls from deserate sign manufacturers looking for an alternative to UL. I've already heard everything negative you can say about UL. Last month I recieved a call and we decided to finally establish the program for sign manufactures to at least have an alternative. The direct answer to your question is that we tell you up front how much it will cost. We don't have any hidden fee's. We don't have an annual fee. We can't work for free Brian and it is very expensive to maintain our accredidation as an NRTL. To ANYONE out there, if your are happy with the testing lab you are with I would advise you to stay. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But if your not, you now have an alternative.

Are you tired of UL? Come on over to MET, we’ll keep the sign on for ya! MET Laboratories Southeast is now offering Sign shops as an alternative to UL. MET is the first Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory accredited by OSHA for product certification in the United States. MET recently proudly celebrated its 20th Anniversary as an NRTL. MET Southeast in Raleigh, NC has been tasked to organize and manage the new Sign Shop Program. MET Southeast prides itself on friendly service and customer satisfaction. During normal business ours, every caller is greeted by our receptionist. We don’t like answering machines and have to assume our clients don’t either. You will find our customer service staff and engineering team readily accessible and willing to help you tackle the obstacles that threaten business. You will get to speak to the person you request every time you call, however, if we are otherwise occupied with another valuable client, we can promise your call will be returned right away. We offer the best customer service available, no hidden costs or unnecessary delays. Contact us immediately and either convert or start your sign shop with MET Southeast today. Sign Shop Hotline 800-321-4655 Ask for Karen Hasselman or Luke Young