UFB Fabrication

Absolutely correct. Want more of the same? That was supposed to be the inspector's job. Oh, I forgot - nobody pulled a permit for this job, as it was a 'repair'... Maybe time to start a 'transformer reliability' poll? Kind of a oxymoron dontcha think.

BTW Sign Builder because its free should have the most SPAM/advertising. Just a thought. I also get a free trade mag its called "The Fabricator" It has all the big boy fab shop stuff but it also has stuff for the little guy. I cant remember if or when the so called sign mags have done anything with welding.

Come on man SPILL IT !!!!!!

I guess we can both disagree, Gary, but my experience is that the circuit will heat up, the contact detects such and trips off. I'm not justifying the cause by any means, but there are layers of safety built into the NEC long before UL's layer. Sorry - Gary's correct: a neon transformer (2161 or otherwise) arcing to ground won't cause a supply breaker to trip. The transformer won't pull enough current to do that. Remember: transformers are tested for 'short circuit' current (30 or 60 ma) by shorting the secondary windings with a milliamp meter. Now a 2161 trannie is supposed to internally trip anytime the current from one output hub doesn't return to the other by taking a shortcut to ground. That's your only protection against crap installs. Crap installs like this are the reason we have 2161 trans now. When I started I used to replace transformers that were 20+ years old. 10 years later 10 years old and I think just before 2161 they would only last 5 years. Now transformers are the weak link in a neon sign. with 5 or more percent failure out of the box and maybe 25% before they are out of warranty. The industry did this to itself by not self policing douche bags like those that worked on this job.

Looking at the pictures these guys prolly taped the test button in anyway. Besides NEC says install in a workman like manner. This does not meet that criteria.

http://www.ulenvironment.com From the home page Introducing UL Environment, a new source for independent green claims validation, product certification, training, advisory services and standards development. A new partner, giving you the third-party credibility and global network of professionals you need to compete successfully in the sustainable products marketplace. A new voice for clarity in sustainability standards benefiting manufacturers, their business customers and consumers. I wonder if the LED suppliers will come play now ??????

You are asking sort of 2 questions. Your local code guy can say he want it to meet NEC and UL at minimum. Then he can say he wants something additional over and above UL and NEC. As for the channel letters the are put up in one piece Standard UL label or multiple pcs UL section label. Once you become a UL Listed shop you will quickly find that you may have to do things differently. As for your own personal design if different from UL standards than you can send it ti UL and have the product/sign go thru testing and labled. I think that method is over 20 G so I am not sure bucking the standard is the way to go.

Hell I think those assholes would not care if their name was posted on here they don't can't read If they even have a name! I keep loosing work to a company called "oh some guy I know who does sheet metal work", and apparently paint, vinyl, and neon! You dont even want that type of work. They would nickel and dime you, after using your drawing to send to 9 other companies. CALL THE CITY !!!!!!!! CALL OSHA!!!!!! CALL THE HALL IF UNION !!!! WE Cant not let these assholes take over a large segment of the work. Then fuck it up for everyone that is trying to do it right. St. Louis County said they will vigorously check any sign that is believed to bet non UL non permitted. The will take calls and you dont even have to give your name.

It is everyone responsibility to report these hacks and the crap work they do. If the fire marshal wont do anything than than go to the mayor and the news if need be. Maybe a stop at the customer getting the work(?) They had to call someone out, they were cheap and made the sign light again. The restaurant owner knows as much about signs as I do about making holandaze(sp) sauce. I think this site should post pics of hack work along with the offenders names. Pier pressure can only help.

I had not been to the sign show in a while. Or vendors and sales reps keep us up to date of the latest and greatest electric stuff. I wanted to look at all the current offering on letter benders. Look at some software too. Overall I was disappointed with the show. It seems as the show is mostly geared to the vinyl shops. They most have had a hundred printers. The other big thing was knock off EMC and LED stuff. I had planned on 2 days but we went down every row and stopped at every both that we were interested in. We came home a day early. Maybe cause it had been a while ago but the last Vegas show I went to was much bigger and had better attendance. Overall I give it 2.5 out of 5 stars.

How can they all be the brightest ??????

I am here today and was disappointed. Talked to Enrote dude about a upgrade, some business tracking software and looked again at automated letter benders. No I dont want a freakin printer,scary lookin LED or some flash in the pan EMC. I was surprised mor by what venders were not there. Ho Hum maybe the marguritas will be good. They did have a few car show hotties but I still cant afford that.......

The trim cap face and the neon and rigidity to what would normally be a limp di er noodle.

We have always used 080 for backs and 063 for returns and welded the returns for both standard and reverse channel letters. The trend over the past few years is a race to the lowest price regardless of quality. I need to revisit adding a economy line of channel letters. I think it should also speed up production of our nice letters as well. Who has one and do you feel it can justify the cost. What brand do you have ? Are they all that was promised/advertised. Do you find some letters cant be bent ? Any problems with the machines ? Any used stuff for sale ?

I would like to be onsite with the electrical inspector and really a UL field survey. Holy crap batman.

The other day on the way home I was thinking of a sign that I had priced for the 3rd time on the same project. My customer was trying to get it to comply with the cities regs. At the same time I was thinking this I was looking at all the snipe signs and banners and signs that I am sure were not compliant with what the city requires. I am thinking that the reason the city has such strict guidelines is because when you drive down the street it looks like all you can see are signs. I have met the enemy and he is us. I am sure nobody is going to admit to it but this crap does not put itself up.

I am thinking this is the new health care model.

Bought a new spindle yet ???? I like all my shop guys but dayuum the could break a anvil.

This reminds me of some of the so called tech articles in the sign trade magazines. They say all you have to do to build a cabinets is buy this her knock don kit. Glue it together with epoxy ad a few of those wire nut thingies and presto you have built a electric sign. Grab a ladder and go screw it to the wall and now you a installer to. Never mind no sign permit, no elec permit, no insurance, no electrical license, no biz license,no engineering and no UL. I forgot (prolly more) the polluter permit. EPA and OSHA requirements But otherwise its just that easy. the OP idea is nice if you are qualified to do the work.

I spent 2 hours today with a UL rep that was laying out what should be coming out the end of this month. Sign shops will basically have 3 choices of how they will deal with follow up inspections. I dont know many shops that will pick option 1 most will pick option 2 and some of the really big guys will likely go with option 3. I am thinking this as it is now wont effect use much except for more documentation and paperwork. We pretty much meet everything else. I did express my concern with shops getting out of UL vs getting in for cost and other reasons. To me it looks like the days of a 1 or 2 man shop being able to be listed and compete are gonna be tough. The good things is that with the new procedures also come some clarification. We will see.

We are a wholesale fab shop. I am always amazed at how much more efficient/cost effective we can be vs a small shop that does not do what we do everyday. I am also surprised at how often folks are opting to sub out vs build in house even if they have a working shop. Many are dropping doing their own electic signs because of the ever increasing U.L. cost and being able to justify it. Quite a lot say the are concentrating on sales and installation and service. That is what seems to be the trend in our area.

I spoke with a customer yesterday and as always he asked if we were busy. He then told me he was getting beat out by the bottom feeders. He said he was beat out by a grand on a set of raceway letters. He said he was at that site and noticed that the letters mounted on a raceway had no disconnect switch or UL label. I told him that if that was the case then they did not get a sign or electric permit. The area this was installed all are required. He also thought it likely that they took his design info. Granted I dont know that Helvetica is a design but He still had to measure the building check the code requirements and size the sign to fit the space meeting code requirements. He asked what I would do. I told him that the local code authority would love to here about this. He said he did not know and did not want to be a rat. I asked him if it is fair that some guy working out of his basement with no insurance, workers comp., building a possible unsafe sign stealing your design and breaking laws which allowed him to beat your price. I asked him if he cared that a customer that used (stole) his design and did not care that they are no in violation of code. I also told him that if the guy had complied with all the regs, rules and ethics that they would likely be higher. I hope he and others turn the bottom feeders in or the bottom feeders become reputable shops.

We use athe cheap small spool gun for letters and you are correct that Miller does not offer the curved set up any longer. If you search online a few big suppliers still have after market parts that will work and we use. After miller stopped we bought 6 or so because my guys also use them as hammers. On a good note miller has come out with a new version that will have a option of a curved tip. Link to miller article http://www.millerwelds.com/about/news_releases/2009/articles282.html

I am not really sure what you are asking. Are you stating that the use of say a product such as GE or Sloan LED's are not patented or may be in violation of patent law. I assume that if that was true and they did violate that you are sending this from your yacht in the tropics. If I am missing something how about a example No, Sloan and GE are good companies and doing things right - I personally have a lot of respect for both of them.. There are others that make some of us wonder if sign companies have a clue about what it could cost them by using knock off products. We use 99% Sloan or GE for the stuff we sell because thats what the buyer specs. I have tried some others. Can you be specific about someone infringing on a patent ? I think a bigger liability would be for the sign supply houses selling that stuff. Without names or proof this thread comes off a little whinney to me.

I am sure glad I can contribute. I am meeting with UL Wed. about the upcoming changes. Should I wear a pirate t-shirt or will the eye patch be subtle enough.