imanut

Damn, had to type this twice--------------. I think that too often we confuse "teaching someone our trade" with the concept of "teaching how to better our trade" It is the former that sends folks into the closet trying to protect, and the latter that is killing our industry. So, we hide what we know to avoid saving what we love. Kinda ironic isn't it??? I do not proclaim that we should all rush out and volunteer to teach, and waste or time, trying to teach those that have no legitimate reason for learning this trade. If someone eveer told me that it looked like easy money---I'd say "bye". I'd be the worst of all to jump on that dream. But I dare you to tell me that you have a secret that I, nor lots of others don't know. I dare you to tell me that you are a "master" of neon------------if, in fact, you're not willing to teach for the sake of teaching. Now, again, I'm not saying that you have to teach someone your trade------------but, instead teach how to better our trade. TAke the time to offer a workshop in which you traing the servicmen and installers---------how to wire, properly load, how to service, what info you need to better serve them, i.e. tube color, kva, ma, etcetetc. Put yourself in the position of being able and willing to offer advice to your local suppliers when questions are asked of them--------knowing that they in turn can ask of you because you're willing to "teach" and better the trade. Put yourself in the position of taking a day, having your competitors over, getting to meet your competition, and seeing that you're all facing the same shit. I've had 14 competitor benders in my shop-----------having a great time learning, and asking stupid questions that we think we know--------------only to find out that, well, we weren't even close. Did I worry bout them stealing my customers---------not a chance. Did it open up a line of communication, absolutely. Could we discuss pricing issues, absolutely. And some found that they were going to put themselves out of business cause they thought they were making money by doing it so cheap. Thru talk they learned that pricing of the product is only one part of the equation. Thru talk they learned that the quality of the product only benefited the industry. Thru talk they learned that we can compete as frinedly competition. It's wholesome living when a competitor could call, and have a need of a dozen sticks of a certain color to finsih a job-----------and know that it was available. A legacy is when you're dead and others say "well, he took all his secrets to the grave with him". When you look at your past, and you remember those around you--------------you will always remember the ones that taught you everything you wanted to know, without asking in return if you were going to screw them when its over. Or, a legacy is when you're dead and others say "well, he died after teaching and sharing with so many that his art lives on. Tough choice. gn

And when a bunch of you are in Vegas, sitting around having a cocktail, before the serious partying starts---------this would make a great table top discussion------far better than typing on a keyboard. gn

Boy, ERik---you ask alot of us!! First off, I agree with Joe about Chat rooms. Timing of chat rooms for a general session, are difficult because of time zones. And then its like being in a crowded room and everyone is talking away------------not my style. As for the issues you raise about the industry. Ours is not that more difficult than others-------sure letterheads have parties and get togethers, but I'm sure they have the same issues. No industry goes out of their way to teach their competition, and everyone feels that they have a "secret" way of doing things that's a bit faster, cheaper, better, etc. Way back, the industry was set up to apprentice someone into the trade----------and actually teach them a trade as a career. The trade off was that the company had a good, well trained individual, the worker had a decent job, benefits, paycheck, etc. Whoops, things changed. Unions became megapowered dynasties, owners became cheap, and workers became, well, instant know it alls. For those of use that can remember back to learning the business back then------------we feel ashamed of the individuals in the industry now because they weren't willing to pay the price to learn a career---instead, most today, paid little to get a job, paid little to get little knowledge and education, and worst of all, they are content with their level of incompetency. Now I'm sure that some will feel that I'm getting on my high horse---------sorry bout that. For every person taht asks a question to learn something---------correctly----------there are 100's that ask questions to just get a cheap answer so they can go on with their life. There is no reason to get better. Trying to respond to these issues by typing is tough. When I speak of paying the price---its not money that I speak of. I used to hold seminars in my neon shop in Phoenix, closing my shop to business for several days-----to hold seminars on neon, testing, procedures, etc----------for my competition, for shops that I didn't even know. I had major mfgs come in---------and they were no holds barred question and answers periods. Sessions that were scheduled for 3 hours lasted 8. We had a great time----and it truly changed the look of neon in the Phoenix area. Why did I do this?? To help the sign industry that had given me so much. We attempted, on another neon list, to start the International Neon Association. We had the backing--------albeit the support of the mfgs, great neon minds, etc. Hence, everyone also brought their fears and personal agendas, and the typical watch from the background and let someone else do the work. It finally died. I think its called apathy. Same as when questions are asked on the board---------and answers are given and totally ignored because---------well, my way is easier, and the product I use is cheaper, so I'll keep doing it my way. THis apathy is why the UL is making things difficult. This apathy is why merc rules are positioning themselves to cause major ripples in the sign industry. Apathy is why most sign companies don't CARE whether neon gets kicked out. It doesn't bother them. They will use LED's, FL's, cfls's or something else. This apathy is not just our industry----its everywhere. For those of us in the neon trade, that grew up in the trade----------its a crying shame. I hurts to see pics on that other web site of that fuck and heart sign--------------its not the wording that dismays------------look at the neon!! Its atrocious---and this guy is teaching others!! Everyone is a professional arteeeeeest. Bender, installer, serviceman-------------experts, all. Think---going to a doctor. Another professional expert---------and they don't have a clue, and have as much apathy as us. Years ago, I was asked why I care so much about the industry when the industry doesn't care about itself. Didn't have an answer. That's alsos why, like on this board, I have no problems stepping on someones toes----------and Mark and Joe do the same. My answer is I don't really care what others think of me, since most don't have a clue who I am or where I'm coming from. Its not the money that people have to pay, its the price that most aren't willing to pay to acquire the professionalism of learning a career. So-----didn't answer your question because I don't think there is one. Getting a concensus of opinion to start a serious change to the industry------------ain't going to happen cause its too splintered. Why do folks lurk??? Because its easier . For the ones that do reply to questions----------personally I applaud you all for the efforts given to give forthright answers for the newer folks. For the newer folks I would hope that you'll learn as much as you can from this board, and any other-------------BUT, remember, to take what you learn with a grain of sand----you have no idea who's on the other end of the typewriter and what his or her qualifications might or might not be. Would you ask money advice from someone who makes less that you??? So, why would you ask neon, or install, or service related questions from someone who knows less than you???? Now, how's that for a long rant??? Teach you to ask me to respond. gn

My first response was similar--------------when you run out, you know you need more. And that wouldn't have answered the question But-------------I then considered that that response MIGHT be considered caustic, and snide. So, then I set out to figure out the formula--------------and said to hell with it. gn

Damn, Mark---you beat me. That'll teach me to take a coffee break--- gn

Not to argue, and not to say that there isn't a guess type formula----but I doubt the one you state is it. Starting off with a new roll, taking a measurement, and then assuming the usage is a linear number based on the thickness totally negates the circumference of the roll which definitely gets smaller, thus taking more wraps to equal the footage. That would be way to easy. But, I've been known to be wrong before. gn

Damn-----somebody actually read the article !!!! I've already read those books you mentioned----good reads. gn

Erik complain??? Doubt it. However, Kgirl did call him her "little" love. Wonder if that was a slip, or an inference???? Brunettes, Asian, Blondes------decisions, decisions. Kgirl---you mention you have a "better" side??? Do we get to vote??? gn

I'll check on the different exports-----------assuming I can remember till tonight when I get home. gn

Not going to say a word-- gn Hey Mr. N...... Where have you been???? "Not going to say a word---" But I want to hear what you have to say........love an older man.... LOL... Obviously you haven't read all the mails over the last couple weeks. I responded a couple times-------------and you said "nada". Thought maybe I'd offended you-----and wouldn't want that to happen. Damn, wish I was going to Vegas-------- gn Erik, hush......

Yeah, I want Erik to get this drill as well.... Love a tool man...... Not going to say a word-- gn

Had two of one, and missed one. Sorry gn

Well, I'd heard of the program--------downloaded it, tried it. Take a look at a couple of these that I QUICKLY did. And I mean quickly. Its all in real time, rather than like adobe where you make a change, look at it, decide to change it, change it, decide if you like it, versus this program--------you see the changes, all the changes as you're doing it. Cool program--------. If the pics download----the arrow started off with the handdrawn black arrow----and I converted into the other. The nutting test started off with the black copy-----------and then quickly changed to all the others. Everything, including the lighting effect from all sides is totally changeable in real time. Even the gif, as I downloaded it, is totally changeable in wideth, lighting, swivel, whatever in real time. gn

Anyone of you artistic type people have vector artwork. Have a son that's into computers, into video, etc using computers and progrms. Any of use ever use a program, or series of programs called XARA ??? If not, check it out. Might blow away your favorite corel, or adobe right out of the water. Anyway, need some vector artwork so that he can play around using that program and check all the whilstles and bells. Thanks gn

Well, hell, why didn't you just offer to rent the suite for the night, have everyone over, spend the night, and have a real party!! Or, maybe you just didn't know erik and kgirl well enough????? gn

Hey Nutz, Thats Pretty Sharp On Your Part About Picking Up On The Lost Step Between The Beer & Bed Time. Better Quit Picking On KGIRL or She'll Find Some Way Of Briteing Up Your Life With Some GTO & a 25,000 Little Black Box. Hey, Kgirl and I are tight !! Because of my dirty mind, I've picked up on a couple of her entendres----------and it slipped by others, OR they were just more polite than I and let them slip by!!! gn

Hey, I figured it out---how to get a smilie in !!! Yeah man---- gn

Nope----wrong guess.

Must have been over the weekend when no one posted--------thought your server had died. And since you're the man with the smilies----please show derf in the shoutbox that he accidentally left out one step between the beer and the bed !!! gn

Hey---Scott---what happened to you??? YOu posted on the shoutbox that you had questions about an old neon equipped shop----and then you disappeared. Don't be bashful, noone, except Kgirl bites---and that's okay since she's a girl!!! Fire away man------- gn

Maybe the convention was at a different place. It used to be held at the Hilton Convention center. gn

Thought she had to carry you. Don't forget---if you find something you just can't live without------------the show models are for sale, if not already sold. They don't want to haul it back, and are usually conducive to making a great deal. gn Should clarify-------the equipment models, not the girl models !!