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I'm going to start a new thread that deal with Dead Beat National Sign & Lighting Companies that take on work sign contracts with clients and pass on the actual work to sign companies.

I don't and have never understood why these services are contracted in the first place, who never really do the actual work really give the industry as bad name. This seems to be an ongoing problem with complaints all over the net.

Anyone posting here please upload the contract or invoice to show proof, any entry's without will be deleted.

This link will be sent out in every weekly newsletter.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Nationwide Electrical Service

9854 National Blvd., #153

Los Angeles, CA 90034

1-877-695-4837

Company has been MIA, no returned calls only their paid answering service picks up.

UNPAID AS OF 3/12/08

***************

PAID AS OF 3/25/08

resolved.jpg

post-3-1205342185.jpg

post-3-1205342192.jpg

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Interesting that you post on this particular topic. I was just contacted by a Florida maintenance company to do some local sign repair, and since this is the first time I have been contracted by such a company, I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice on how to deal with them. Hopefully, I won't soon be adding to this deadbeat company's list.

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Welcome to the board Tom,

One thing I have not hit on yet, and I haven't had time to research it yet and that's the legal means of the contract between client receiveing services and the lighting service company.

Legally in my state and I'm sure it's the same in most other states. This lighting company has to be a legal contractor with a license. They can't legally contact me as a third party if they themselves are not a contractor. Most of these lighting companies seem to be pist off workers form another company who decided to start up their own gig, but unlicensed. Only a contractor can legally sub-contract work out.

Now what can happen to me if something were go to go wrong with a contract between the service company and the said client, I can loose my license and be heavily fined. The Service company posing as a contractor will go to jail and face fines.

Now when lighting companies are from out of state and are legal contractors then it can get sticky, but not as bad as being unlicensed.

Looks like I have another project to look into and add to my stack of stuff.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • !llumenati

Not being a lawyer --------- but I doubt you're right in assuming that a company can't sub out work if they aren't license. Obviously, depending on the job. I can buy signs from a non-licensed company, and assume the legal use of those signs. I can sub out to a licensed contractor to perform --- thus allowing his license to legally do thejob. Now I know that California is different, in fact their was a major deal with CSA about that. Also in Vegas where they tried a similar approach to business. I just don't think one must be licensed to legally sub out work.

But, please, do let us know -----------------

gn

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Most states with a contractors board and licensing requirements will say you can't. In my state and I'm sure it's effective in others, Joe Blow off the street cannot act as a contractor or take on responsibilites as one who executes a full contract which also leads to installing, altering, or adding to a building, by signing a contract with a client and then subbing out the installation. What Joe Blow would have to do it sign a contract with the client to build him a sign, then have his installer who is Lic to do so sign a contract with Joe's client. Separation is needed.

If your not licensed, you cannot have in your contract "Fabrication & Installation of one set of channel letters" (Any performance of work over $500.00 of total contract value)

There is a reason why I know this part, trust me :P This is why I got my license. Ignorance to the law is not a way out from the judge. See when I first started out on my own, I thought I could sign a contract, build the sign then sub a lic electrical sign contractor to install it. Sounds legal right? That's what we both thought, bam! I'm facing fines and jail time unless I can legally obtain my own license, and the contractor that I subbed out almost lost his license and had to pay a fine.

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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In my state, North Carolina, I'm not aware of any rule that says a company contracting out sign installation work must hold any kind of license at all. It is required here that a company pulling a sign permit be licensed, (which means that the company has a licensed contractor on staff), and it's the permit puller's responsibility that the installation comply with regulations and pass inspection.

In fact I know of several small sign companies that started out selling banners that have expanded into channel letter signs. They order their electric signs from fabricators, accept delivery, and sub contract the installation to companies like mine that are licensed and can pull a sign permit. All they really do is sell the signs.

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  • !llumenati
In my state, North Carolina, I'm not aware of any rule that says a company contracting out sign installation work must hold any kind of license at all. It is required here that a company pulling a sign permit be licensed, (which means that the company has a licensed contractor on staff), and it's the permit puller's responsibility that the installation comply with regulations and pass inspection.

In fact I know of several small sign companies that started out selling banners that have expanded into channel letter signs. They order their electric signs from fabricators, accept delivery, and sub contract the installation to companies like mine that are licensed and can pull a sign permit. All they really do is sell the signs.

My point exactly --- and that's the way it was in Arizona, and from what I know, it hasn't changed. Hey, California is weird but the women are cute, and the scuba diving is fair, sometimes.

gn

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Most states that require a license to pull permits do so because they want to ensure that the people entering into the contract do saw with no excuse as to ignorance of the law.

That is why when you become a licensed contractor you are required to learn the applicable labor laws and OSHA and the NEC and properly insured and what not.

In my state (Florida) we have many people who are certain that they can and do SUBcontract and the law says that they are guilty of a felony.

A sub contractor is a licensed contractor who subs to another contractor.

Now heres the clincher... If your right and those of us who are properly licensed are wrong. Post your info and let us report your data when we question the state you work in...LOL

I bet not a single unlicensed taker. How many are insured?

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  • !llumenati

Personally I'm not licensed anymore, since I don't do neon anymore.

But, I think we're talking semantics here. As a company I could sign a contract with a contractor --- he being the licensed individual required to know the laws, etc.

As a company, if licensed, I could sign a contract with a sub-contractor. As a company, being licensed, I can sign a contract with a company to do work that I'm NOT licensed to do.

Now, if a particular state REQUIRES that a company be licensed in the same area that they are subbing out work to do --------- I would assume that is THEIR right to make that a law.

Me thinks, that in this discussion, apples are being compared to oranges. And, personally, I really don't give a whiff ---- again, in Phoenix, unless its changed recently, one did NOT have to be licensed to hire a company to install a sign. BUT, the company installing the sign needed to be licensed to pull the permit, needed to be licensed to pull the electric permit.

'Nuff said from this corner. And I didn't say, nor implied, that WCSG, or others that speak of the rules in their state were wrong, just that ALL states aren't the same.

gn

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As a company, if licensed, I could sign a contract with a sub-contractor. As a company, being licensed, I can sign a contract with a company to do work that I'm NOT licensed to do.

gn

That's my understanding of the law here in NC too. Ours is traditionally and historically a politically conservative state, and so business tends to be less extensively regulated than it might be in parts of the northeast or the west coast.

Tom

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Personally I'm not licensed anymore, since I don't do neon anymore.

But, I think we're talking semantics here. As a company I could sign a contract with a contractor --- he being the licensed individual required to know the laws, etc.

As a company, if licensed, I could sign a contract with a sub-contractor. As a company, being licensed, I can sign a contract with a company to do work that I'm NOT licensed to do.

Now, if a particular state REQUIRES that a company be licensed in the same area that they are subbing out work to do --------- I would assume that is THEIR right to make that a law.

Me thinks, that in this discussion, apples are being compared to oranges. And, personally, I really don't give a whiff ---- again, in Phoenix, unless its changed recently, one did NOT have to be licensed to hire a company to install a sign. BUT, the company installing the sign needed to be licensed to pull the permit, needed to be licensed to pull the electric ipermit.

'Nuff said from this corner. And I didn't say, nor implied, that WCSG, or others that speak of the rules in their state were wrong, just that ALL states aren't the same.

gn

In Arizona, all contractors who perform residential or commercial construction,

remodeling or repair must be licensed. One exception, however, applies to work

performed where the labor and materials total less than $750, there is no building

permit required and the work is not a part of a larger project.

I can't look for an exclusion as it probably doesn't exist. Since the folks that declare no need for licenses and insurance and such are only the obligation of legitimate companies and not the unlicensed sub set of unlicensed contractors. It would be best that the person implying this to be legal to show its legality...

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Who must be licensed as a contractor?

Any business which contracts or offers to contract to build, alter, repair, add to, subtract from, improve, move, wreck or demolish any building, highway, road, railroad, excavation or other structure, development or improvement, or to do any part of the work must be a licensed contractor.

http://www.builderszone.com/contractorlice...equirements.htm

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Did not know they would issue a LLC a contractor Lic. Now I wonder about CA.

I just noticed there is only one post about a company that won't pay, and 13 others about everything else, Damn Pirates!

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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  • !llumenati

Well bob-------------you must be right.

Here's a link. The $750 you quoted, wherever from, is probably old. It's now $1000, assuming the link I attach is current as of 2007. However, there are more than one exemption, as you'll note. As I said before --- don't really care, as I was always licensed, and insured ----even though all I did was wholesale neon for most of that time. I also stated that I'm NOT a lawyer ------- but there must be some dividing line between "hiring" a company to do a job, and contracting a company to do the same job.

Attached is a link http://www.rc.state.az.us/Acrobat/Public/Statutes.pdf in case anyone is REALLY interested in Arizona law.

Sorry bout the thread Eric --- but, good discussion anyway. There must be a means in which an out of state company can HIRE a local company to do work -------- without being construed as "contracting". But, again, that's why there are high priced lawyers.

gn

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I had re-read this entire thread to make sure what it is y'all are discussing.

:thread jacked:

To the best of my knowledge...

Sign Broker?

An un-licensed sign company can (and they do everyday) sell signs to anyone, as long as they are using a licensed sign contractor to pull the permit and do the installation, and of course the signs have to be made by someone with a UL certification. It's a shadowy gray area of the sign business that I never got envolved with simply because I didn't have the time, or inclination. We have, in fact, one local wholesale-to-the-trade ONLY Licensed Sign Contractor that is doing quite well in this market. More power to him, and all the other Licensed Sign Contractors who do this that I''m not aware of. In the end the Licensed Sign Contractor who pulled the permit is the responsible party.

Sign Intaller?

Likewise a Licensed Sign Contractor can sub out the installation to anyone they want, however; they (the licensed sign contractor) remain the responsible party for the work being done. Just as they can hire anyone they want into thier company, hand that person the keys to thier spanking new L60 Elliot and send them off to install a sign. The licensed sign contractor is the responsible party.

thread%20jacked.gif Getting back on track...

Deadbeat National Sign & Lighting Companies

I was over surfing around on signweb just before I came here. Oddly enough, I logged on here to paste this link which is right on topic...

Deadbeat Thread

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  • Board Patron
Anybody do work for Image Point??

Yeah, we've done a bit of work for Image Point. They pay in about 60 days as long as you get all the sign off sheets; purchase order numbers and pictures of absolutely everything. We like the people we've worked with for IP, they seem reasonable and usually answer emails within a few hours. I absolutely hate their purchase orders, they are the hardest to read - can't find the vital information about the job because it's buried in the 4+ pages of standard crap they put on every job.

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I know that we are well insured but I do not know of us having any particular licensing. There are a few cities around us that require us to become licensed by the city which as I understand is filling out some paper work for the city that lets them know who we are and that we are indeed insured.

Are you guys talking about electrical licenses, installation licenses, business licenses or what?

TEastin

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I know that we are well insured but I do not know of us having any particular licensing. There are a few cities around us that require us to become licensed by the city which as I understand is filling out some paper work for the city that lets them know who we are and that we are indeed insured.

Are you guys talking about electrical licenses, installation licenses, business licenses or what?

That sooo reminds me of me when I first opened up for business. Swear I can still hear the words ringing in my ears, "What do you mean I need a contractors License?!@#$%!" --- It was a long hard road getting to point of being able to get that license. But well worth it.

In your particular area I suppose it's very possible that you don't need a contractors license. I've heard of small municipalities and rural areas that don't really care about such things, supply and demand type thing... People need signs, but there are no licensed contractors within 250 miles. What to do? The anwser is simple, whoever wants to step up and be the local sign guy,... well, there ya go. Get yourself insured... You are now the local sign guy, with the full blessing of your local community.

None of the above is intended as insulting or demeaning. LIke I said earlier, I had no idea I needed a contractors license here in Phoenix when I first started. I kinda figured all you needed was the heartfelt desire and determination to be the best sign guy around. By the way, for those of you who don't know, which is just about all of you out there, my background in the sign industry started over a decade and a half ago doing interior engraved ADA signs, wayfinding sign programs, and such for the hotel and hospitality industry... Huge difference in the exterior illuminated sign industry. Again that ringing in my ears...

:tumbleweed:

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I had re-read this entire thread to make sure what it is y'all are discussing.

:thread jacked:

To the best of my knowledge...

Sign Broker?

An un-licensed sign company can (and they do everyday) sell signs to anyone, as long as they are using a licensed sign contractor to pull the permit and do the installation, and of course the signs have to be made by someone with a UL certification. It's a shadowy gray area of the sign business that I never got envolved with simply because I didn't have the time, or inclination. We have, in fact, one local wholesale-to-the-trade ONLY Licensed Sign Contractor that is doing quite well in this market. More power to him, and all the other Licensed Sign Contractors who do this that I''m not aware of. In the end the Licensed Sign Contractor who pulled the permit is the responsible party.

Sign Intaller?

Likewise a Licensed Sign Contractor can sub out the installation to anyone they want, however; they (the licensed sign contractor) remain the responsible party for the work being done. Just as they can hire anyone they want into thier company, hand that person the keys to thier spanking new L60 Elliot and send them off to install a sign. The licensed sign contractor is the responsible party.

thread%20jacked.gif Getting back on track...

Deadbeat National Sign & Lighting Companies

I was over surfing around on signweb just before I came here. Oddly enough, I logged on here to paste this link which is right on topic...

Deadbeat Thread

Well, quite honestly the words "To the best of my knowledge" do imply nothing of an real importance. I honestly mean to imply nothing of offense to you. I am just saying we are all limited to what we know. Until we learn otherwise.

WCSG the LLC is not issued the license really. It is issued to the LLC company on behalf of the qualifier. It says so in the document and I will post the exact text if needed.

Any state that requires a licensed contractor is not going to allow you to sub the work to an unlicensed entity. Hiring a licensed sign contractor to do the work that you contracted for does not exonerate you from violating the law when you engaged in contracting in a trade for which your state requires you to have a license to contract in. It doesn't matter if you perform the work or not. It is a license to contract! If you enter into a contract in that trade, you MUST be licensed. Whether a subcontractor or not. There a very specific laws pertaining to who is an employee and who is a subcontractor. The person who you hand the keys to your new Elliot is only an employee if you control his hours and dictate his schedule. He is insured and paid as an employee.

Instead of asking us to provide proof. Call you STATE licensing board and ask. Post applicable links here. Or another thread if WCSG blows a gasket... ;)

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***Note*** Nationwide Electrical Invoice

resolved.jpg

Do you think this thread helped to resolve the invoice? Do you think an invitation to join the thread and explain thier side of the story would be appropriate, of any use. By that I mean - as of right now we only see that there was a problem of some kind. And even though the issue is resolved, there was still an issue to begin with.

What was the issue to begin with? Is delayed payment just SOP for this company? Would you recommend working for them in the future? Would you do more work for them? Would they send more work your way?

That link I posted to the similar thread on Signweb seemed to have a semi-positive outcome for the company in question - to some degree, anyway. (I think mainly because the owner of that company saw that a thread like this could be very damaging to him in the long run, and he changed his ways.) Regardless of the situation, this isn't Hollywood where all press is good press even if it's bad press. Tell me that you have done work for a company and you have had problems collecting on the invoice... That company name goes into my warning list on my desktop. Such is the case with this company here, till I learn otherwise.

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  • 1 year later...
Guest Neon4ever
I'm going to start a new thread that deal with Dead Beat National Sign & Lighting Companies that take on work sign contracts with clients and pass on the actual work to sign companies.

I don't and have never understood why these services are contracted in the first place, who never really do the actual work really give the industry as bad name. This seems to be an ongoing problem with complaints all over the net.

Anyone posting here please upload the contract or invoice to show proof, any entry's without will be deleted.

This link will be sent out in every weekly newsletter.

Did somone post the list somewhere...this would be helpful to all...especially these days to know whom and whom not to deal with.

Thanks!

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