Signs Of The Times - September 2010 Issue

[Erik Sine]

Guess I'll do this in article order as I see it.

Workhorse Signage - A channel letter overview with case studies

By: Darek Johnson

WTF???? Someone want to translate this for me, what the point is to this article is?

I got absolutely nothing out of this self defeating title article. It explains SOT naming different bullshit articles that have done spread out all over the past few months, article that never added up to anything anyway other than simple fluff pieces. The Holiday Inn Article was just self back patting that never really got into the ROI of the 1 million feet of LED's nor was it ever explained how Holiday Inn would ever save 4.4 million dollars annually.

I myself estimate ROI will take 20+ years, please prove me wrong!

Solvent Green

I'd really like to see these solar powered signs with some REAL pictures, undoctured or over exposed to show more ilumination than it's really putting out.

GE Tetra Max Modules in double sided cabinets, to run 4 to 5 hours a day? Some ignoramus end client got screwed in the pocket book. Seriously after 4-5 months I'd like to see what these signs look like in the 3rd hour.

So now LEDs are saving only 40%, in the next SOT article it's saving 60 to 80% HUH????

The first page is what turns me off, it made me skim read the fluff piece that Guy Cox wrote about his company Southwest Signs. The photo should say it all. The lettering appears bright, and in daylight no doubt? OBVIOUSLY, the picture was taken in darker lighting probably after dusk, but the surroundings appear almost as day. This is called overexposing a shot. It's either over exposed, or Guy Cox wants to take credit for having a super illuminated pylon sign who's LEDs are so bright they can be seen in daylight. Take a pic on what's believable.

Lean and Green - Harbinger's green initiatives helped its sales grow treefold.

This article is the Cherry of this months rag. Steve Williams's self proclaimed, fluff piece of Quality Sign ****COUGH*****, err, Harbinger Sign Co's big self promotion fluffer.

We are GREEN, yadda yadda yadda, 60 to 80% in energy savings, yadda yadda yadda, ROI in a few years, yadda yadda yadda!!! Yadda = Bullshit, to those of us who are fellow colleagues in the electric sign industry.

This is the second trade magazine piece about Quality Sign , WHOOPS, Harbinger Sign Co. Hard to keep track sometimes. Again, this is the second trade magazine write up by the company in order to self promote sales that have no merit behind it. They are selling fear and baseless numbers of saving in order to push products that couldn't be sold otherwise. This company has also been in other net news flashes as well, especially with the 7-eleven jobs.

I've personally contacted Quality Sign, when it was called Quality Sign about taking part in a study here about the use of LEDs in double faced cabinet signs, and how they save clients money annually and on ROI, in just a few years. I asked what conclusions they came to, and how this was accomplished. I came up with a sign plan with detailed plans showing a double sided pylon sign (As they explain saving in their articles) with a existing four ballast system. I asked how much it would cost to retrofit and when the customer would make back the ROI.

No Response. It took a few more emails to bug, and they told me they decline. WHAT???? Wait a minute, they come to fluff themselves up in these trade rags where figures are never checked because the editors "hope" they are printing unbiased information, tell us their numbers in sales are threefold, but they can't tell fellow industry men and women how they explain to their clients???? Why is that?

Guess what, I ran the numbers and the ROI took 23 years. This is a thread that is in the Board Patron's forum:

Engineers and LED manufacturers have looked at my numbers and so far, it hasn't been disputed

Maybe sales figures are x3 higher because individual contract sales are so much higher than using conventional light sources? I can't say, because they won't explain. I'd love have Steve Williams explain this "fuzzy math".

No doubt some ignorant end client will read this article that I'm sure is apart of their portfolio or hung in the lobby for suspect clients to read. The client will say to themselves, "Well, it must be true, it's in print!"

It's funny, no I'm sorry, it's not funny, it's SAD how these article are written, and it's sad that the Community Organizer gives up the reigns of the publishing typewriter to Sign Shop owners who use the platform of a supposed "Trade Magazine", which is suppose to give out unbiased news and information and illustrate to us fellow industry men and women "leadership". This is nothing more than infomercialism all over again. There wasn't enough to write about this month, so we are stuck with these lousy articles. Advertisers got stuck with poor sugar filled pages of a trade rag, well at least the Community Organizer is fat and happy.

NOTE: - I'm not here to blast LED manufacturers, I think the time most likely will come down the road, it's just not right now as advertised or marketed as this company portrays on short term ROI. They should be concentrating on areas of sales where this light source fits the application of spending more up front for very little savings down the road with less headache, such as high rise & cold weather applications.

Museum News.

Lastly,

I find it sad, soo much sadness in these last few paragraphs I tell you, I hate the word "sad". Anyway, I find it PATHETIC <------ I likes this word better. I find it pathetic that they want to capitalize off the showing of old neon signs, neon signs, the neon industry whose back they rode in advertising money all those years ago that first handedly made them the money to make a living. AAAAaand By now publishing biased articles filled with fear marketing that have unfactually killed AND MIS-CHARACTERIZED the neon industry, and they are NOW making money off, making it extinct, making it an antique. You HAVE to love that right there! They have a fancy hotel rotating door, I don't care who you are, you have to love that! LEDs as we know pay better money in advertising, especially by the LED companies who get huge government stimulus dollars or huge R&D grants. So you can look for inspiration in the Community Organizer and his staff for this sub group sales/marketing model they have going?

SOT is media, so I can relate SOT and the neon industry in a better/shorter understanding of how it's killed the neon and soon the be fluorescent lamp industry in a few questions I want to pose to you.

Did the BP spill really kill the tourism in the Gulf coast states, or did the media and how they reported it? Was the spill really that bad, and was the end result so bad that we ACTUALLY had oil drenched beaches where tourists could not go, or did the media over exploit LOOKING and creating disaster where there was none? The end result was empty tourist beach cities who's beaches were never effected that lost millions. Something to ponder, yes it is very similar.

I'll never visit that museum, even if it were free. That is because of what that museum really represents to me and our sacred trade. I'd rather take a drive down the 101!

SFI, bought their media machine. Community Organizer in full effect.

[geraldi]

I saw this, especially the "Workhorse Channel Letter" garbage. I,m like you Eric, I wondered what the damn point was. I'm embarrassed for the peroson that wrote this. The whole magazine is just one big sales pitch anymore. Don't get me wrong, I love channel letters, my business depends on them.

[saneon]

These trade mags of the sign industry should be classified in the sci-fi genre. Maybe they should change the name of the SOT to "Signs Fiction"

They might as well start printing articles on warping the fabric of space and time or the latest design in light sabre manufacturing. That's about how useful the s#@% they print is.

[Erik Sine]

As far as the "workhorse" Article is concerned I'll just say, they are starting to feel the "heat" thanks to sites like the SS. I'm sure the end result got butchered and it's evident that, like all REAL studies, there is a "conclusion" at the end, this one never got published or revealed.

With the few scientific columnists that they do have, there "must" be a serious tug of war going on in regards to real scientific articles vs. the fluff / promotion articles that get published do to advertising money and obligation pieces to satisfy the base.

[mike@qualitysigncompany]

Why is our name change of such concern to you? If you did truly contact our company, you would have spoken with me and I would have informed you that the cost and ROI of our LED program is confidential.

[Erik Sine]

Why is our name change of such concern to you? If you did truly contact our company, you would have spoken with me and I would have informed you that the cost and ROI of our LED program is confidential.

Truly???

You think I would come on here, start a thread that was not true? I contacted who I was told by your company was the person to talk to, on the phone and by email. That person was Rick.

Confidential??? Your company wants to exploit/promote themselves all over the net and in trade magazines on how they can save end clients money on energy savings on the use of certain components with crazy number percentages BUT, it's confidential to explain to fellow professionals of the industry? Why is THAT????? You have no problem CLAIMING it.

I GREATLY question your companies claims on their "couple year" RIO for sign cabinets with equal brightness to of that of T12s using with your said LED components for retrofits. Id love to also hear the channel letter aspect to it?

Your making claims to your fellow industry men and women who perform the same work you do, believe me there isn't anything you can hide under the guise of "confidential" and think we don't know the end result.

Steve, welcome you to the forum.

[Brian]

Why is our name change of such concern to you? If you did truly contact our company, you would have spoken with me and I would have informed you that the cost and ROI of our LED program is confidential.

Truly???

You think I would come on here, start a thread that was not true? I contacted who I was told by your company was the person to talk to, on the phone and by email. That person was Rick.

Confidential??? Your company wants to exploit/promote themselves all over the net and in trade magazines on how they can save end clients money on energy savings on the use of certain components with crazy number percentages BUT, it's confidential to explain to fellow professionals of the industry? Why is THAT????? You have no problem CLAIMING it.

I GREATLY question your companies claims on their "couple year" RIO for sign cabinets with equal brightness to of that of T12s using with your said LED components for retrofits. Id love to also hear the channel letter aspect to it?

Your making claims to your fellow industry men and women who perform the same work you do, believe me there isn't anything you can hide under the guise of "confidential" and think we don't know the end result.

Steve, welcome you to the forum.

Agreed captain.....

[Brian]

I know that a certain LED MFG (not Axiom) will surely now chime in and explain how LED co's do not pump up and make up numbers to sell more product.

[steve@harbingersign.com]

if you are a client and have a need for our service, i am happy to spend time and talk to you about our processes, our products and our results. We are making results for our clients and saving them the money that we claim. As far as sharing our proprietary information about the R&D we have accomplished and/or our patented retrofit kit that we sell, we are not under any obligation to share that with industry friends or competitors and at this point it is something that we do different, why should we?

We perform, for our customers, with amazing results, just ask them.

[saneon]

if you are a client and have a need for our service, i am happy to spend time and talk to you about our processes, our products and our results. We are making results for our clients and saving them the money that we claim. As far as sharing our proprietary information about the R&D we have accomplished and/or our patented retrofit kit that we sell, we are not under any obligation to share that with industry friends or competitors and at this point it is something that we do different, why should we?

We perform, for our customers, with amazing results, just ask them.

It's not hard to fool the naive end user with this BS . I dought very much if you can convince any of the seasoned sign vets on this board that the reason you can't prove your claims is because its "proprietary information" . Maybe real math and the laws of physics dont apply in Jacksonville.

If the SOT wants to be seen as a viable tool for the sign industry and not just a advertising rag they need to hire respected personell to validate some of these rediculous claims.

[Erik Sine]

if you are a client and have a need for our service, i am happy to spend time and talk to you about our processes, our products and our results. We are making results for our clients and saving them the money that we claim. As far as sharing our proprietary information about the R&D we have accomplished and/or our patented retrofit kit that we sell, we are not under any obligation to share that with industry friends or competitors and at this point it is something that we do different, why should we?

We perform, for our customers, with amazing results, just ask them.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for chiming in.

We are all in the electric sign trade, there is hardly anything proprietary about how to illuminate a sign unless you are making special brackets which don't hardly count as anything unique. LEDs are LEDs, HO Lamps are HO lamps, the amount used will be the same, the spacing will be the same, power consumption and brightness are the same. So, your patented (patents by another manufacturer?)components must be in the SAM no doubt? From what I've seen on the net I'm assuming the GE PowerStrips or Tetra Power Max? Those are some VERY expensive upfront costs. From our own retrofit project (which I emailed Rick) here on the SS component costs alone (If you use GE) came to about $11,000 not including labor, T12s a little under $600.00, not a huge difference in wattage a year, but 23+ years on ROI (again, not including labor)

Are you pulling permits and having UL field inspections too? What UL file number do the retrofits fall under?

Of course you are in no obligation to share, but like I said, I doubt that there is anything your company is doing that already hasn't been done by others.

As for the asking your customers about their amazing results, tempting, but I don't have the time nor do I need too since I've plugged in a couple of different components (US LED, GE, T8's, T12s, Magnetic & SST) already here which have been observed and looked over by a few engineers and LED manufacturers.

I still invite your company to take part of the project, if you need me to re-email it to you I can. All I'm asking is what the results you would get using your "patented" components, the module number & draw, total draw of power annually and not too include labor to change over from a magnetic T12 system to LED and what the ROI is, It doesn't need to be too specific.

Surely I can become a potential customer of yours. I would walk in or call and tell you that I have several double sided pylons signs that currently draw 2,500 watts annually, and I'm paying about $1,000.00 annually each to light them 8-10 hours a day. What can you do for me, how much will it cost initially, and when can I expect to make it back?

It's one thing to make claims on your own website or brochures, it's another to blanket the Trade Magazines and net with marketing statements/claims for ALL to see and read, then think you will NOT, expect to be questioned about it. Then to hide behind words like "confidential" or "Patented materials". Our project section is not public either, the invitation is open and maybe we can learn together.

[Brian]

if you are a client and have a need for our service, i am happy to spend time and talk to you about our processes, our products and our results. We are making results for our clients and saving them the money that we claim. As far as sharing our proprietary information about the R&D we have accomplished and/or our patented retrofit kit that we sell, we are not under any obligation to share that with industry friends or competitors and at this point it is something that we do different, why should we?

We perform, for our customers, with amazing results, just ask them.

I can sell you some neon that actually pays you to run it ..... but I can't tell you how, you'll just have to buy it and trust me! LOL

WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!

If you can't back it up with real numbers it is a worthless claim. You feed that to the "Green People" but the people on here are just a little more educated on the subject

[LiteGirl]

Hey now, with everything we create we're proprietary too.  hehehehe   <-------------<<<< just love these

[steve@harbingersign.com]

My company would be happy to participate in an industry research project on LED or the viability of lighting cabinets with LED components. I am not sure what "project" you are talking about and so far, this entire exchange has been confrontational at best. I do not know who you are or what you are looking for. Give me and my company, HARBINGER SIGN, the professional courtesy of at least filling me in on your project and letting me see what you are trying to accomplish, before wamblasting in a public forum.

I appreciate good, healthy, respectful exchange and conversation, of which, this currently is not.

Feel free to contact me at steve@harbingersign.com and i would happy to have a professional conversation and listen to what you are trying to accomplish with your efforts.

[Erik Sine]

My company would be happy to participate in an industry research project on LED or the viability of lighting cabinets with LED components. I am not sure what "project" you are talking about and so far, this entire exchange has been confrontational at best. I do not know who you are or what you are looking for. Give me and my company, HARBINGER SIGN, the professional courtesy of at least filling me in on your project and letting me see what you are trying to accomplish, before wamblasting in a public forum.

I appreciate good, healthy, respectful exchange and conversation, of which, this currently is not.

Feel free to contact me at steve@harbingersign.com and i would happy to have a professional conversation and listen to what you are trying to accomplish with your efforts.

Absolutely!

I just sent you an email of the file I sent Rick back in Feb/Mar of this year along with the project description.

Not trying to be confrontational, just trying to get some answers from when I was left hanging, then I see more press on the subject.

Anyway, glad to hear you want to become involved.

[TecnoluxMan]

Update from Harbinger?

[Erik Sine]

Update from Harbinger?

They contacted me today with a few questions, so we'll see where it goes.

[LiteGirl]

oye nada a cambio ya?

[Erik Sine]

Lmao, I had to translate that. No, nothing back.

[Erik Sine]

I think it's safe to say Harbinger Signs/Quality Signs doesn't want any part of proving their marketing claims.

[saneon]

Thats a shocker

SOT editorial staff

[Doug Blair]

note to self: check facts before writing articles. haha..i Love how you guys hold back! :)

d

[Erik Sine]

We've been waiting for Steve Williams President of Quality/Harbinger Sign to come back to us and participate in explaining his claims as stated in Septembers issue of Signs Of The Times, and now on Signweb He even posts on his Facebook Page Wall "Harbinger Sign Harbinger's green initiatives are highlighted in this article by Steve Williams!" Underneath this you can read "Updated for 2010, this guide covers how to estimate, warranties and quantity discounts, an estimate form, design and engineering fees, service and installation hourly rates, a letter footage chart, and ..." It seems to come off as a "How To", BUT where is this information? Where is this information on fact gathering? Does anyone else see it?

"LEDs represent significant energy cost savings for customers, particularly when used in large, single- and double-faced sign cabinets. Estimated energy savings can range between 60 and 80%"

Really Steve? How??

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

"Currently, our team is fulfilling a contract with one of our largest clients to replace fluorescent lights with LEDs in pylon-sign cabinets.

To show clients the benefit of retrofitting their signage with LEDs, our teams conduct energy audits to assess the energy used by existing signage. An onsite consultant examines the current lighting products in use and estimates the financial benefits that LEDs could provide. Some clients can save as much as $7,000 per locationper year, resulting in an 80% savings on the electric bill and an ROI of 2½ to three years."

That's INCREDIBLE Steve!!!! Will the new Retrofit be just as bright, or almost? ROi in just a short term?

It's also interesting how he lights up his channel letter props for potential clients, the amount of modules used out of manufacturer spec to make the letters bright, and then claiming to save them 60%-80% in energy.

What should be 5-6 modules is 12. Is this the way Harbinger fabricate and installs their channel letters?

Or could they be installed to standard spec. Makes one think?

I've gotten a few emails back from Steve Williams President of Quality/Harbinger Sign. He wanted to ask the following questions before proceeding forward. Who is this study for? How will it be used? Why are you doing it? Who else (other companies) has participated? Can I speak with previous participants for reference? What benefit does Harbinger get from participating? He wasn't happy with my initial answers so for a second time I let him know the short simple answer was to verify and prove his claims he has made all over the net and in news information sites, our so called fact finding Trade Magazines. I also told him he could contact any manufacturer or sign company on this board he he so chose to get any kind of reference or information he desired.

Then the Front Man (Steve Williams) tells me he has to provide these answers to multiple partners, well we in the sign industry know what it's like to go up against a design committee for an approval from our proposal. Each and everyone has an opinion or a way to do things.

I've asked the question to the Community Organizer wade.swormstedt@stmediagroup.com why this stuff gets printed and propagandized in his monthly brochure with few (bi-monthly)legit scientific writers which in turns hurts other light source manufacturers and a trade. Most importantly such propaganda gets used in legislature which at the end takes away our individual and civil liberties, killing a free market society where government dictates to a FREE MARKET what "demand" is. This also feeds the Eco-Tyranny monster that is growing day by day. Steve Williams and the Community Organizer may not have a clue on what they are supporting or enabling on the much bigger picture, they could just be "useful idiots" to the larger Vendors and Advertisers with the agenda. I've emailed the Community Organizer already, maybe others should too until he can give a good answer to his choices on not verifying "fact from fiction"

I've had enough of the waiting games for verification of claims (I've done and played this game back in March/April of this year), it's clear Steve wants to bounce his ball all around the playground teasing all the kids then take his ball home with him.

[saneon]

The only thing you can do is exactly what you are doing. Keep drawing attention to the problem. At some point the sign industries trade mags are going to have to start fact checking before printing if they want to be viewed as a credible and useful source of information. Hopefully the negative attention will force companies like Harbinger and others to think twice before writing this BS.

Props to the SS

[fmason]

This has been very amusing dialogue . Im glad to see someone finnally taking on the b>S> claims of some of these companies . AS a lighting practitioner Its quite hilarious all the false claims . We have done much testing with leds for letters and cabinets . There is no way they can achieve the lumen out- put in a double cabinet sign and save the client money . Its all propaganda At least for the time being Its to bad many a client are being led like sheep to the slaughter . BAAAAD SOT do your home-work