megavolt512
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Posts posted by megavolt512
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Lonnie, good post and thanks for the reference. Sec. 1305 is longer than this cut and paste. There is quite a bit more, including the section on exemptions, etc.
There is no provision in the occupations code that electrical products must be listed to be sold. Not all electrical products are listed, or are even required to be listed. Neon tubes and florescent bulbs, for example. (Neon "signs" over 1000v, yes.) The requirements for listing is set forth in the NEC, not state contractor licensing laws.
I think the big controversy here is all about "offering to sell". Texas and most states do not have "sellers licenses" for most any electrical equipment. And many industries provide a turnkey, contract price to the end user. You buy a home, you get a contract price that includes electrical, HVAC, plumbing, etc. You buy a swimming pool, you get a get a contract price for the pool and licensed electrical work as well. ( I'm not sure why TDLR would have legal consul advising against this for signs but not other electrical equipment... some of it far more public-safety-paramount than an electric sign?)
(Electric sign contractors provide a contract price for work they don't do as well: Engineering. Neon tube fabrication, Excavation. etc. How about requiring a licensed tube-bender on the payroll if you are going to "offer to sell" neon... even wholesale? Hey, I'll rent you my license for a small retainer?)
Joking of course. HB1352 deals with a single issue: that selling an electric sign over the counter does not require an electric sign contractors license IF(!) the person selling it uses a LESL for ANY electrical work. Period. HB1352 does NOT sanction unlicensed electrical work of ANY kind. Not installation, not service, not permitting, not anything.
It's ironic to me some folks fighting so hard against this are the ones who stand the most to gain. I talked to a TESC yesterday who told me that working with Fastsigns has been ~30 percent of his income. Selling a sign, bantering back and forth with the client about the design, size, location, price, securing the deposit, making sure they pay, etc. requires a lot of manpower (or womanpower). If you'd rather have the sign salesman, client manager, graphic designer, etc. on your payroll - paying their health insurance and other expenses - by all means do.
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Texas (and I think most states) do not license manufacturers of any type of regular electrical equipment. Be it electric signs, electric clocks, drill presses, air compressors, desktop computers, refrigerators, gate openers, amplifiers, porch light fixtures, light bulbs, supercomputers, dishwashers, Christmas lights, induction heaters, water pumps, lasers, etc. Also generally, sales-only of these items are not licensed. Even if they are custom-made (built to spec) items like an electric sign sometimes is.
The manufacturing of electrical equipment (including signs and everything else listed above) is exempted in Sec 1305.003 of the Texas Occupations Code. There are restrictions. Work is limited to the types of equipment made by the manufacturer, within the equipments enclosure, using parts and wires of identical ampacity, by an employee of the manufacturer. In other words, a manufacturer of electric clocks can service and repair electric clocks. They cannot install hard-wired clocks.
Electrical work installing, wiring, troubleshooting, servicing, removing, modifying on site, etc. IS licensed. In Texas and everywhere else.
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The only thing I would add to these lengthy conversations is...the "open" signs at Home Depot and Sams have a fn' PLUG on them. We're not concerned with every gag gift or decoration called a "sign". We don't put plugs on our monuments, ch.letters, etc.
There is no exemption or distinction made in the current law for plug-in electric signs vs. hard-wired
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Let me explain a few items...
I was part of the electrical sign industry that helped integrate components of the original law and the Manufacturers Exemption was never intended as a method to exempt the sell or manufacturing processes associated with ordinary manufacturing of regular electrical products including signs. This exemption was specifically written to address the complicated and precision manufacturing, calibration, installation and servicing of special proprietary electrical products such as switch gears, integrated electrical circuitry and other specialized electric products that required proprietary and often guarded knowledge to safely and adequately install, service, calibrate and install. It is in the records if you care to research...
Lonnie, with respect, the manufacturing exemption is (and has) indeed been applied specifically to manufacturing electric signs. At the TDLR board meeting on Feb 16th 2012, relating specifically to the manufacture of electrical signs:licensing. Quoting directly from TDLR board minutes:
Presiding Officer Keith Bell called the meeting to order at 9:02 a.m.
Presiding Officer Keith Bell moved to agenda item I, Report and discussion on application of manufacturers’ exemption under §1305.003(7), Texas Occupations Code to offer to perform electrical work. Christina Kaiser, Enforcement Director, reported that TDLR’s position on this matter is that a person must hold a Sign Contractor license to advertise to install a sign (photovoltaic included). A 6-month grace period will take place before any violations are given.
They are talking about the manufacture of electrical signs, not "special proprietary electrical products" (that language is not in the Texas code either, even if it were the original intent). Specifically they were closing a loophole some manufacturers were using to avoid a sign contractors license to install electric signs they manufactured. This was a good move by TDLR. Even the Texas Sign Association posted their own analysis of the manufacturing exemption, posted here a year or so ago:
Also, your comments about exempting listed signs (or listed anything) is simply not in the Texas code with regards to electrical sign contractor or electrician licensing. If you feel it is, post a reference to it.
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Just looked at Sec 1305 and the Tx Administrative Code again. I see no exemption for selling "listed" signs at all. Nearly all electrical equipment (listed or not) can already be sold without being an electrical contractor. It is only electric signs that are the issue at hand.
"Manufacturing" electric signs is specifically exempted in 1305.003(7). TDLR clarified last year this exemption is ONLY for manufacturers, and it will not be allowed if any elecrical work such as installation is offered as part of the sale.
If you are offering to sell electric signs (listed or not) you did not manufacture yourself, you are breaking the law as it is currently written and being interpreted. Providing a specific list of contractors when you are not one yourself may be a violation as well. There is also no exemption for "over the counter" or catalog/mail order sales.
Again, a lot of misinformation floating around. Please read the actual law:
Texas Occupations Code Sec 1305 - Electricians (in it's entirety):
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/OC/htm/OC.1305.htm
Let's get the facts straight...Anyone can sell any listed electrical product in Texas without a license... including a sign. You must have an elecrical contractors license or an electrical sign contractors license to manufacture, install or service an electric sign or to even offer to perform any of these functions (bid or contract to perform these functions). You can currently sell a LISTED sign to an end user and provide them a list of preferred licensed installers that he can choose from.
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Where are you getting this information from? This is not in the language of the Texas Occupations Code Sec. 1305 (with regards to electric signs) and is certainly not how TDLR is interpreting it.
Let's get the facts straight...Anyone can sell any listed electrical product in Texas without a license... including a sign. You must have an elecrical contractors license or an electrical sign contractors license to manufacture, install or service an electric sign or to even offer to perform any of these functions (bid or contract to perform these functions). You can currently sell a LISTED sign to an end user and provide them a list of preferred licensed installers that he can choose from.
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It's a little more complicated than that.
First off, there is no "exception" in the 2005 law for portable or "OPEN" signs, premade UL signs, exit signs, LED rope lights, etc.. ALL electric signs. If they mean otherwise, it is not clarified in the occupations code at all. In fact, current wording states "designing or manufacturing a neon tube" is sign electrical work requiring an electrical sign contractor's license and a master electrician on the payroll. There is then an exemption for "manufacturing" of signs, in which the entire section does not apply - so the current language of the law is a mess and needs to be clarified and streamlined. This is not limited to neon. ANY electric sign, even photovoltaic or battery powered. Stationary or portable. Big or small.
Second, no one is (or was) proposing anyone can perform sign electric work (including maintenance) without a license to do such work. It's a question of subcontracting - something essential in a free and competitive market. You don't have to go to a master plumber to buy plumbing fixtures or design a bathroom. Or a master electrician to buy light fixtures. You don't even have to go to a physician to buy an MRI machine. The proposed clarification ONLY involves the "sale" or "offer to sell" of an electric sign, when any electrical work is done by a licensed electrical contractor.
When a general contractor builds a house, they subcontract electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and other trades. Much more involved than Fastsigns selling a UL sign and contracting a LESC to do the electrical work.
The thing is, regulating the "sale" was never intended. Even William Muntz of TDLR called this a "quirk" in the 2005 wording. HB 1352 passed by a margin of 133 to 7 - all 7 dissenters I think were democrats of smaller districts. The 2005 language largely flew under the radar, with few folks paying much attention until TDLR forced the issue by starting stealth raids on anyone advertising electric signs for sale, even on a website. Presumably they targeted only Texas based companies, not the many others selling signs from other states (and in the case of neon, from overseas) as they don't have jurisdiction.
But again, HB 1352 was never about promoting unlicensed electrical work of ANY kind. It was about the "sale" only, or "offer to sell". If anything, this bill has strengthened electrical safety by specifically saying even sellers of electric signs must use a Texas licensed electrical sign contractor for any electrical work.
There is a lot of misinformation going around regarding HB1352. Rather than take my word for it, I'd suggest anyone with doubts read the actual bill that passed:
ftp://ftp.legis.state.tx.us/bills/83R/billtext/html/house_bills/HB01300_HB01399/HB01352I.htm
Scroll down to the underlined text. This is the only thing changed by the bill.
Here's the update.
It's currently going thru the house and senate of Texas and this has nothing to do with selling say an "Open" sign. Any sign company can engage in those sales. This has EVERYTHING to do with the Sales, Maintain, and Installation of Electric signs. They are trying to make it so that unlicensed sign companies can complete a sale that involves the installation, and maintenance, of electric sign contracts.
In other words, unlicensed contractors might be able to subcontract if they get their way in the state of Texas.
ISA is positioned where on this?
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It's just as ridiculous to say other wise as asking a Neon bender that he needs to be UL for his custom lamps, oops...did I just say that?
Wanted to add a tidbit to that comment....
Back sometime in the 1990's, when UL was really sending their tentacles out into the neon industry, I had an interesting conversation with Paul Davis (who wrote the sign electrical column for SOT at the time). He told me UL was really wanting to "list" neon tubes... but they were unable to do it. The reason being that light bulbs are not listed. Look on any incandescent of florescent lamp. No UL... except maybe the recent "green" certification.
Light bulbs are not listed... but their sockets, wiring, and supply systems are. (Complete CFL fixtures with a bulb and ballast and internal wiring are another matter. ) One big reason is that any light source can fail, burn out, break, etc. The electrical system supporting it must be able to provide for this in a safe manner. Even the finest made neon tube or HO lamp can be broken with an impact from hail, kid with a brick, etc. LED's can always be shorted out in electrolyte-rich water that collects inside signs. Every system must be able to account for this.
There's certainly a lot of crappy neon folks have made... but tracing back through a complete system it is not the source of a safety issue. The wiring system is. Same with an LED or HO florescent sign cabinet. If one light source shorts out or fails.. it is the wiring system that bears responsibility as this is a situation to be expected and planned for in any system. Electronic FL/LED ballasts and SGFP neon transformers have mostly made this a non-issue... but it's part of why individual light sources are not part of the NEC or listing.
There is no mention at all in the NEC (or UL) on how to make a neon tube... or any other light source. There is no question on any electrician test, nor (at least in the US) rules or even guidelines on how to build a light bulb, neon tube, or LED.
Probably rambling to make a simple point... but that's why neon tubes are not "listed".
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Mega Volt, I don't see the Fastsigns franchiser's, or your shop being a real problem to the public. But this proposed change isn't just for Fastsigns franchise's. This will allow anyone to go out and sell electrical signs without a license.
Selling a sign is not "electrical work" as defined by the Texas Occupations Code. Nor is designing the non-electrical or non-mechanical parts of an electric sign (ie: size, font, artwork, etc.) This was clarified last year at the TDLR board meeting.
The company I wrote about in this thread who was/is doing un licensed work. Has a facility, bucket truck, and goes out and installs signs illegally. I have no clue about their: expertise level, insurance, fabrication capabilities. All I know is they are using a Air conditioning license number. And their install techs in the field, don't carry required State license's to install electrical signs.
So they are doing "electrical work" without the correct licenses. Everyone agrees: against the law. TDLR is not enforcing the law that's already here.
That's why the law is on the books. How do you propose a system, that guarantees an un licensed shop, uses licensed shops for; designing, installing, verifying the fabrication meets code, and proper permits are secured?
By only allowing LESC's to perform or permit electrical sign work in the first place, and the sign gets inspected. There's no system to propose - this is already the way it works everywhere in Texas.
Banning the mere selling of electric signs without an LESC license effectively makes sign wholesaling illegal. As well as buying/selling across state lines unless your state holds a reciprocity agreement. You're likely breaking the law yourself if you are purchasing channel letters from a wholesaler that doesn't hold an LESC in Texas. The way the law is worded currently, even small signs out of a catalog - such as a lighted exit sign - can only be offered for sale by a LESC?
I don't think anyone believes that was the intent of the law. Probably why TDLR doesn't seem to have time to police electrical work anymore?
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it's kind of expensive to buy an electric sign from one company, then have another company quote them out the install instead of a single company can can do all in one.
It's actually big business here in Texas. There are ESCL's that specialize only in installation.... they don't make or really sell anything. Other's only make things, don't do installation at all. I know parties in both camps. Many LESCL's here depend on sales from other entities both for new signs and repair work. I know at least one here who's entire business is service-work from an out-of-state sign service broker. They love it. Someone else deals with the customer, schedules the job, and collects the money. They only have to worry about the service itself. Checks arrive in a timely manner. Definitely not my business model, but if it works for someone else, let the free market work.
In reading the Statesman article (and even the Fastsigns link posted) I don't see the problem in need of a goverment solution. Fastsigns is selling signs (many likely UL), and subcontracting out an LESCL for the electrical work. "Electrical Work" as defined in Texas is:
"any labor or material used in installing, maintaining, or extending an electrical wiring system and the appurtenances, apparatus, or equipment used in connection with the use of electrical energy in, on, outside, or attached to a building, residence, structure, property, or premises."
Here, in the Statesman article, and everywhere else, I don't see anyone questioning that "electrical work" should only be done by an LESCL. No brainer. There is a clear public safety issue of government regulation of electric work. I don't hear anyone proposing otherwise. But do you guys really want government dictating sign sales? Continue this trend and you'll soon be notified you can't do your own deliveries unless you hold a delivery license, and hire a master delivery licensee. You can't recycle your aluminum scrap unless you hold a recycler's license, and have a master recycler licensee on the payroll.
Think I'm stretching the matter? Read this other article from the same paper as the original post here:
Once government gets involved, professions are difficult to deregulate
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If simply the sale of an electric sign requires an Electrical Sign Contractor's License, I hope Home Depot has one:
And WW Grainger:
And Sears:
And of course all the wholesaler's shipping channel letters into Texas...
This would likely also apply to all those companies that broker "sign service".
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This is off the TXDLR web site. There's some other info there too. Just don't have the time to look it up.
73.52. Electrical Sign Contractors’ Responsibilities.(Effective January 1, 2010, 34 TexReg 9433; amended effective March 15, 2012, 37 TexReg 1703)
(a) An Electrical Sign Contractor shall:
Have read all of sec 1305. I see nothing requiring a license just to sell a sign. Even in the 2005 amendments. I don't see how Fastsigns selling an electrical sign violates sec 1305 unless they are offering electrical work or installation along with it.
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I don't think the Statesman article is accurate. I do not think there is a law that prohibits the "sale" of electric signs without a sign contractors license in Texas. The "sting" they are talking about are against folks offering installation services without a license. There is a recent law that prohibits offering any installation or electrical work along with the sign-sale without an electrical sign contractors license.
I usually watch all the TDLR Electrical Board meetings (at least the part that pertains to signs) and I have heard nothing about requiring an electric sign contractors license simply to sell an electric sign. The recent changes seemed mainly directed at sign brokers and sign manufacturers (manufacturers, of which have a very specific and limited exemption) who were offering installations along with the sign sales. It was clarified that a manufacturer cannot offer installation or electrical work without a ESCL.
This would be like requiring an appliance dealer to have an appliance installers license to sell a dishwasher?
If someone knows differently, please post the Texas Occupations Code rule or provide a citation so I can look it up.
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The new Transco/FMS all silicone boots sell for 33-45 per hundred.
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approx dimensions:
NW16 - 3/4in tube with a 1in flange
NW25 - 1in tube with a 1.6in flange
NW40 - 1.5in tube with a 2in flange
Note these are sometimes referred to as "KF" fittings as well.... so you might seem them listed as "KF16, KF25", etc. Same item.
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LDS Vacuum has the best prices on fittings like this. Make sure you get the right size that fits your pump. I can't tell from your picture if you have an NW16 or NW25 flange.
LDS Vacuum Shopper Hose Adapters: http://bit.ly/XV6Brz
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US does not have the best healthcare in the world, only the most expensive.
http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcare-systems-in-the-world-2012-6?op=1
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I don't think there is anyone on here that really thinks this will be free to anyone besides the ones at the very bottom. I don't disagree with the need of health coverage but I don't believe that I should be held responsible to pay for others to the point that I can no longer afford to live comfortably.
You are already (and have been for decades) paying for the health coverage of:
1. all Federal Government employees, including retires, all members of the military - past and present.
2. all state employees in your home state
3. virtually ALL people over 65, and all severely disabled people (medicare)
4. virtually ALL poor people (medicaid)
5. working people without insurance - most seeking care at hospitals or emergency rooms. (via increased costs shifted to you)
That's been the status quo for many years.
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Gonna jump in, I'm not defending anyone. But come on Ron.. You want the definition of a deadbeat? Let's start off with; The baby machines, who kick out a kid every year or so, or father them. They abuse the system like a drug addict does coke. They do zero for their community, country, or themselves. Then claim it's their right to continue to bring more children into this world on the tax payers dime.
The $10.00 an hour guy who doesn't have insurance...Been there done that, I was a kid then. Healthcare is always available for FREE at any County Hospital. May take a little longer, but it is available. You have to start somewhere in life. Hard work pays off soon enough, and you elevate yourself. IF you make the right life decisions.
It's hardly "free" at an emergency room? Probably the most expensive way in the world to deliver healthcare. You and I are paying for this through our increased premiums. I don't see the big deal of making "deadbeats" get insurance when we have a system where emergency rooms have to treat anyone off the street?
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Not really any change for companies less than 50 full-time employees. If you're in this category, from what I can see you are not required to offer anything as an employer. No requirement to offer health insurance at all. But above 50, the requirements start to kick in. This is why big-box stores are sweating bullets. National companies with large numbers of low-skilled/low-wage workers will definitely take a hit.
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I have been asked to quote the installation of a simple set of raceway letters about twenty feet above grade. There is no truck access, so the signs would be hung using ladders or a scaffolding. It's pretty straightforward except that the electric company's power lines run parallel to the wall and are less than 10 feet away from the spot where the sign is to be hung. I can't imagine a way to hang those signs that wouldn't be dangerous, (and scary), as long as the lines are energized, and so I guess I'll have to see about having them shut off during the install. Have any of you had a job like this? I never have, and don't know what to expect from the power company when I contact them. Will they really turn off a part of their power grid so that I can hang a sign? I have all the licensed I need for regular sign installations, so that's no worry at least.
Tom
In most municipalities, you can pay a fee and the power company will come out and either turn off that section, or put sleeve's over it. It isn't cheap: here in Austin it runs about $750-$1000. But sometimes this is the only way.
If someone put a sign close to lines, or want's one serviced that is, it's their responsibility to do whatever is necessary to get the job done. I think OSHA now requires a 20ft clearance when working near live wires?
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It still taxes folks on home sales. Maybe not everyone... Regardless, why would you tax a home sale. To pay medical insurance for someone else?
True, but every tax is a tax on someone or something to pay for something else. I pay taxes, some of which go to the DOE which is doing research to support the LED industry, which has blanketed the world with misleading (or patently false) information on neon and cold-cathode. My taxes also pay to research and dispose of private companies spent nuclear fuel and pay for their insurance (as no private insurance company will touch nuclear power generation). I'd get a tax increase had I not bought a home (and taken the home mortgage interest deduction). Is the government compelling me to buy a home? Maybe so. If I had not (or decided to sell my home) I will pay higher taxes. Ayn Rand would roll over in her grave if she knew.
Do I approve of it? No, but like all taxes I pay it and just try to elect folks that carry my vision forward of a fair world and concentrate on my own business ventures in the mean time.
Obamacare hardly seems socialist. If anything it is Fascist: giving more power to the private insurance companies. Any guise of a "public" insurance plan was quickly killed by both parties. The "individual mandate" was a Republican idea, born out of the Heritage Foundation and included in the 1993 alternative to "Hillarycare", and certainly a centerpiece of "Romneycare". I've no doubt that if McCain were president right now repubs would be pushing a similar plan and the left would be railing against it with all the vitriol they could muster. If healthcare is going to change or cost less or be less profitable to someone, then that someone is going to loudly complain about it anyway they can. Who wouldn't? Nobody wants to get less money for their products or services. The status quo sucks to some, but is quite nice to others. Depends on where you are in the scheme.
My point? The contradictions are everywhere and will never go away. Just learn about the issues from multiple sources - try to understand both sides and make your best choice at the ballot box every couple of years. Like Dominic I'm neither Liberal nor Conservative. I've voted for both sides. My perspective is just as I see things... as a person who's spent his entire life running multiple small businesses.
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There are many reasons not to like Obamacare, Romneycare, Hillarycare, SOPA, ACTA, the Patriot Act.... nearly any big bill. But the "home tax" is a viral rumor that has little truth:
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/04/a-38-percent-sales-tax-on-your-home/
Controversy over electric signs splits industry - A NO Brainer!!!
in General Message Board
Posted · Edited by megavolt512
I think this topic has been talked to death... likely my last comment on it.
Lonnie you make some valid points - we could find quite a bit of agreement. But regulating sign sales (without any attached electrical work) is pretty out of the mainstream with regards to other electrical equipment - both in Texas and elsewhere. You seem to feel it is essential that there be a single responsible party whom can be sued for liability should something go wrong. Even a tiny fender-bender car accident usually involve 2-3 (or more) responsible parties. It is how liability works. Same with faulty electrical equipment. Was the problem the product itself, or the installation, or an act of God? Courts, juries and judges solve that problem every day of the week. Due to insurance subrogation laws, the insurers are going to pursue all the individual parties anyway.
The public isn't really being helped that much with a one-stop shop for lawsuits.
HB 1352 was not voted on this session - so it is likely dead until a similar bill is introduced in another legislature.