megavolt512
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Posts posted by megavolt512
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The transformer calculations are pretty close. You are way too kind on the power factor though. Power factor for a normal pf transformer is about .5 instead of the .6 you have. That brings the watts per foot down just a touch. Say about 7.1 watts per foot for 15mm glass below 40 degrees F on a 60mA transformer and 4.0 watts per foot for the 30mA transformer.
You mentioned 18mm glass so I'll just pop that in here too at about 5.9 watts per foot for 60mA and 3.3 watts per foot for 30mA. All transformers are of course the 15Kv models.
I don't think it's really fair to calculate PF here. The low power factor isn't going to affect their electricity bill much - and it is correctable with a capacitor, a PFC model tranny, or an electronic switching supply (all are over .9 pf)
My point in all this was the National Aquar. is probably NOT saving 70% on their electric bill.
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I sent an email to Paul Gramza at GE Lighting today, who supposedly worked on this project. I asked him if he knew more about how the numbers were calculated, and could share some information.
BTW, here is a picture of Triangle Signs taking down the neon:
(Looks like 15mm neo-blue.)
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I just cane back from London where someone was trying to tell me that a 4ft Osram LED tube at 1200 lumens was same as T8- ummmm the lights must be really dim!!!
Until LED tubes can be over 2000 lumens and sell for under $40 a tube - it doesn't make sense
LED "tubes" will never mature as a product. This is simply a wrong application for LEDs. This is like waiting for neon to mature as a spotlight. LED's will excel in fixtures designed for them, not as retrofits for linear light sources with 360-degree illumination.
Also, in general illumination, lumen-efficacy is critical. Modern fixtures of any type need to be in a verifiable 70+ lumens/watt and >85 CRI to be playing in this arena. And several thousand lumens. Of course, higher number are better - but since many products already exceed this baseline, this minimum bar is already here.
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GE is probably THE main LED company still advertising their products like TertaMAX as saving 80% over neon, unfortunately for them they are comparing a flashlight to a searchlight and telling everyone they have HUGE saving, well duh? Of course you save 80%, it's nowhere NEAR the same light output. You save 80% in energy for 400% less light.
I heard about this article too, I'd like to dive deeper into it later.
Well, at least according to their spec sheet, you actually use MORE energy... regardless of light output.
The red-orange Contour offers a very slight improvement over red neon (3.24 watts on the Contour vs. 3.6 watts for red neon). However red neon is a very long life product with near 100-percent lumen maint.
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ditton on Marcus. I've known him for 15 years, and he has been a great advocate of sound science with regards to any lighting system, not just neon. His data concerning LED light tubes is mostly taken right from the Dept. of Energy's Caliper testing program going on right now. While some LED products have slightly exceeded CFL's, the LED tube lights tested were dismal in quality and efficiency. I think every single model tested had a lower lumen/watt figure than claimed by the mfg. Someone else that has written for the magazine in the past told me Marcus was asked to remove a reference to the DOE testing in one of his articles a year or so ago. Look who's advertising in SOT - not that surprising.
The current issue of Signs of the Times is a joke. The cover article features the Baltimore Aquarium's replacement of neon with GE Contour LED strips. They claim it should reduce energy consumption by 70% over neon, and perform better. I'd love to see how they came up with these numbers.
From the GE website spec sheet on Tetra Contour http://www.gelighting.com/apo/products/lighting/led/downloads/TetraContourDataWEB1_08.pdf
Blue Contour with guide: 3.81 watts per foot. 19 lumens per foot. 7 lumens per watt.
Compare to EGL Horizon Blue, 15mm, 30ma:
3 watts per foot (with standard magnetic trannies), 80 lumens per foot, 26 lumens per watt.
Last time I priced Contour, it was around 5x the cost of neon.
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Erik for President
I'll run for Secretary of Neon
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I'm like Gary looks kinda broke!
Sad as this was probably a great system that was not transported property.
Like Gary said, take some pictures inside the cabinet. The real value will be whether it has a good mechanical pump and secondary pumping system (turbo, diffusion, etc.)
Ordinarily, products like this are disassembled before transport and wrapped in some sort of insulating material (ie bubble wrap). I think Eurocom still sells parts - and this could likely be reconstructed without paying to much $$$.
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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?
I thought UL was the only listing company. What other companies are there?? UL has always been too expensive for the small guys to be able to afford. I have never been able to afford it.
ETL - Electrical Testing Laboratories has been around even longer than UL. I've seen several signs listed by them. Oldest NRTL in the US I believe.
CSA - similar to UL.
There are others.
BTW, can anyone confirm to me a jurisdiction is actually mandating UL??? There is nothing in the electrical code that specifies UL. "Listed" - yes. Listed means certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). Even recommending a specific laboratory like UL would be illegal I'd think in any possible case. I have NEVER heard of a city actually mandating UL. Listing on the other hand, has been required for decades for everything from electrical sockets to furnaces. That's what a NRTL does. It's supposed to be an unbiased independent testing facility for product safety.
And if UL is now becoming a source of training, that's a sad state of the industry. I don't see how they could remain an independent testing facility if they are now the one's doing the training.
John
I have had only one City that mandated UL. It is stated in their App that it has to be a UL listed sign. It was one I was working in last year. I can't remember which City it was, but they definitely said they would not accept anything but UL. I had to have my sign manufactured by someone that had a UL listing. I will have to go back through my jobs files for last year, because I remember making notes about it in the file, but it won't come to me off the top of my head this morning. When they said that I thought to myself that they were the only ones that had ever said that, and wondered why. I had never had that problem until that one job. If all of us stand together and use someone else, UL may get the hint and drop their pricing so even a small shop like mine could afford it .....??
almost surely a misprint on their part. To many people "UL" is a generic term that means "listed" - almost like "Coke". The National Electric Code adopted by each jurisdiction never, ever, ever mandates one brand of product or service over another. Doing such would be VERY illegal anywhere in the US.
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We recently went to ETL after UL came in and started flagging every element down to the rivits that were not UL listed. Our Muni requires a listing of some sort. I believe and agree there should be a standard in our industry not only for the safety of legitimate sign shops but for the end users. But a label without enforcement is just a sticker.
How have the fees with ETL compared with UL? Do they operate in a similar way where they come to inspect each quarter... or do you list specific products that don't change?
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Wonder why shops are looking for other listing co's?
I thought UL was the only listing company. What other companies are there?? UL has always been too expensive for the small guys to be able to afford. I have never been able to afford it.
ETL - Electrical Testing Laboratories has been around even longer than UL. I've seen several signs listed by them. Oldest NRTL in the US I believe.
CSA - similar to UL.
There are others.
BTW, can anyone confirm to me a jurisdiction is actually mandating UL??? There is nothing in the electrical code that specifies UL. "Listed" - yes. Listed means certified by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). Even recommending a specific laboratory like UL would be illegal I'd think in any possible case. I have NEVER heard of a city actually mandating UL. Listing on the other hand, has been required for decades for everything from electrical sockets to furnaces. That's what a NRTL does. It's supposed to be an unbiased independent testing facility for product safety.
And if UL is now becoming a source of training, that's a sad state of the industry. I don't see how they could remain an independent testing facility if they are now the one's doing the training.
John
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Boy, alot of illegal boots were used.................no value in those for most neon shops.
gn
Ditto! Man, those Diverified Components boots were terrible! Flammable!!!!! They can actually catch fire (and keep burning), dripping flaming molten plastic as they do so!! Like little firestarters being tossed below. And they weren't that much cheaper than a good listed boot.
(You should bury the boots!)
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CCFLs Move From Backlights Into the Spotlight
Early this year, representatives from Taiwan`s leading manufacturers of cold cathode fluorescent lamps (CCFLs) and CCFL backlight modules met to discuss establishing an industry standard for the lamps in general lighting.
Ummm.... almost every neon tube (except clear red) is a CCFL. Strange they don't even mention neon - arguably the worlds most used CCFL's.
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"The lone community for neon which I thought was slowly dying, wasn't , but in fact, it now appears to already have been dead. :rip:
Just reading some of these comments here. Are you talking about neon-l above? I've run the Neon-List since 1996 - and subscribership right now is close to an all time high (231 members as of 10-30-08) - up 21 from this time a year ago. Up from ~180 in 2003. As someone who posts there frequently yourself (and has only been a member as of recent), what exactly are your referring to "slowly dying"? Please explain.
Neon-l is a free, unmoderated mailing-list for neon people I created in 1996 with many of the subcribers to the Neon News (Ted Pirsigs publication that ran in the early 1990s). Has always been this. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't make money off of it, and operate it soley out of a love for the trade. A trade that is responsible for the majority of my income the past 2 decades. I don't dictate, nor recommend topics for posting. People get upset when I don't moderate comments others find offensive. Sorry, I'm not a censor, and I depend on the group as a whole to call out BS when they see it (which, most of the time, they do).
John
Mega Volt Neon, Inc.
Austin, TX
administrator: Neon Mailing List (Neon-l)
Signs of The Times - November 2010 Issue
in Trade Magazines
Posted
Correct, but only for a non-PFC, non-electronic (switching) neon power supply, and only for the case of "real power" actually consumed - not power metered and billed to you by the utility. PFC in neon installations has been available for at least 50 years. The PF concern largely disappears with electronic supplies, and would be an identical issue if someone installed a large LED system with giant step-down magnetic transformers. It has nothing to do with the neon tubes themselves.