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manuellynch

Supp/Mfg./Whole/Assoc. II
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Posts posted by manuellynch

    Drastic Reduction of product offering...anyone know anything

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    Permlight is now called PERMLIGHT - not sure what that means...but check out their new website - they are no longer offering all the LED luminaires they use to offer to the lighting world and it appears that they are now offering a greatly reduced product offering to the sign community.

    Someone made be laugh and wanted to know if BRILLA was there was of saying they will be rough on customers...funny.

    Heard also from several vendors and competitors that they seem to be focusing on markets outside the USA only (India, France, etc). We kick their butt in India so I wonder if anyone has any news on them.

    Seems odd that they do about $12-$14 million in sales and that they have two CEOs.

    Maybe my buddy at Lumificient/Nexxus can shed some light on this.

    Marko - have you heard anything?

    Light Bulb Hoarders

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    No doubt, I will crate them in when they make it illegal for sales in CA. I need 2-3 CFL's just to match one incandescent. I fail to see the savings

    Dont get me started...I wonder sometimes if this is all an elaborate way to start a new industry.

    Shipping Costs

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    Wanted to get a conversation going on new ways that people are finding shipping bargains in shipping or receiving products.

    Really would like the international group of members to jump in on this.

    If shipping to Europe the US Post Office is almost invariable the least expensive and reliable. However if shipping to India you may not want to use the US Post Office and may want to use DHL for tracking purposes.

    Also - interested in what anyone is learning about customs clearing cost these days. Seems FEDEX is the best equipped.

    Conversation on this subject would be great.

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    That is true, I think the biggest part of this test will be individual perception. Even though a product is "brighter" doe not mean it is appealing, same can be said for power consumption.

    I agree with you on this. Even of our parts are 80% less power than neon it doesnt mean that neon may be the better choice for a purple face sign.

    And get different age range of viewers - someone 20-30, someone 30-50, and someone over 50. Eyes change with time - light meters dont...sorry...but it is people that make decisions on what to use.

    Photos of Installations? How Much?

    in General Message Board

    Posted · Edited by Manuel Lynch

    Why would you want to buy something from someone that doesnt belong to that someone in the first place?

    I think it would be something of negotiation with several determining factors such as how will the picture be used, where will it be used, is my name on the picture, do you make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and so on. But I would guess that you already have a figure in mind though.

    No. I have no figure in mind at all. I envisioned giving the sign company credit.

    My interest is in the nature of using this sign board as an extension of our business to reduce marketing costs by giving back to loyal customers - a win win.

    I am a believer that these boards can open up complete new ways of doing business and can cut costs in these interesting economic times.

    Here is an article that echoes that what Erik is doing on this board is pretty friggin smart: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/125/ni...e-ambition.html

    So...propose a concept and I will put it together. I believe that vendors and customers should work much closer together. Hell, I am constanly telling our vendors where the products are being used and why - it motivates them to be part of the solution and it makes them want to make us successful.

    I also think Erik should add a simple way that we all can invite other people to join this board.

    Photos of Installations? How Much?

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    Wanted to get feedback on how much people think would be reasonable and fair for a vendor to offer a customer to supply installation photos that used their products. It would be under the agreement that the photos could be used for the vendor promotional uses.

    Are there vendors that offer this out there?

    What would be a fair amount for use of a photo that really isnt the sign company's property???

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    As always, Manuel is using this board for marketing purposes

    I am sorry I do this better than you Zdenko.

    First, we do, in fact use Nichia dies

    Now that is really funny. No one can purchase their dies...are you that special?

    If you do not believe, call Dan Doxsee at Nichia and ask him.

    Oh I will - I would love to purchase Nichia die. I will have him jump on here and correct that for the group.

    Second, show me one document, just one confirming your junction temperature statement. And do it publically on this board. I know for fact that non of the LED manufacturer will publically state that at near maximum junction temperatures (120C or 150C for some Lumileds) and 80RH their product will have long life performance

    I will find the Nichia lifetime curve at these elevated temperature and humidity and post it for you and for the members of this board.

    And for the record - my advertising isnt Free - I like YYZ pay for our ads on this site. Why dont you?

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    FACT: Temp inside channel letter, in fact, can go much higher than 80C. Temperatures over 60C are very common in the sign industry (even at 11pm) and account for more than 20% of operating time of the sign (average). In AZ, it is more than 50%.

    Should I continue with more “LED Truth” ?

    I live in Las Vegas Zdenko - we know a thing or two about heat. And in Australia, Dubai, and India where we also sell quite a bit of product we see similar extreme conditions. 10C/W seems high...you should ask for better. And you may also want to check micro via technology used in power amplifiers for thermal conduction. And I did tell you I did work for one of the largest military/satellie semiconductor manufacturers...didnt I? Temperatures can get pretty extreme in these applications. Do you want more on the "Thermal Truth"

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    - FACT: So called junction temperature is absolute maximum. Crossing that you will go to thermal runaway and destruction of the silicone latice (catastrofic LED failure). LED chip manufacturers spec 80 C as a maximum junction temp for long life performance (at 40% RH).

    Newer LEDs have a junction temperature max of 150C. Also these LEDs can operate near junction temperature and achieve lifetime performance with 80% humidity. But good luck with the LEDs you are using sir. It is my understanding that you DO NOT use Nichia LEDs. As always - good luck in your business.

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    As digital media useage increases along with the desire for thinner light boxes a lot of LED systems are coming into the market for backlight.

    This is a question that probably deserves another thread - but, does neon, fluorescent, or LED at the exact same color temperature render images differently?

    Would like some feedback on rendering digital images with various different light sources.

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    Generally speaking, 6500k White is common because it's the best compromise between brightness as color quality. The "bluer" you go, the higher the brightness (based on equal power). The "warmer" you go, the lower the light output.

    From a usage standpoint, 6500k is on the blue side for most, but not unlike moonlight, which most people's eyes are used to at night - and visual acuity is actually better with a higher k temperature (this is why visibility under metal halide lamps is sharper than under sodium lamps, for example). It's a better color for backlighting blue, purple, etc.

    Our 5500 (nominal, usually 5300-5400) is a much nicer "actual white" which I would consider "sign white", as it is closer to the color of a Daylight Fluorescent lamp than 6500k neon, even though a Daylight lamp is actually supposed to be 6300k. My experience is that most neon and/or LEDs that sell as a 6500k are actually cooler, some pushing 7000k and beyond. A white in the 5300-5500 range is still going to give you a nice punchy white, but also be able to backlight pretty much any color in the spectrum, especially brighter colors. It goes right from red to yellow to green to blue with no trouble because of the higher CRI.

    Once you get into even warmer colors (the range between 4400 and 5200 is seldom used), your output drops further still, and is useless at illuminating blue, purple, etc. You get nice neutral white (3500 - 4100, like most halogen lamps), what I call designer white (3000 - 3400) and warm white (2600 - 2900) that replicate incandescent light... these are seldom used for illuminating channel letters, but for backlighting a large format images, posters, etc - anything between 3500 and 5500 will do a much better job than 6500k light sources. We're working on a large airport project that is using a 12 color printing process for the digital prints, and 5300k was deemed to be the perfect white source for backlighting.

    Great post Marko. Only one addition - Warm White 2700K is usually used for halo lit letters in historic or older parts of town where the backdrop is a natural element like stone or brick. Warm white renders red and earth tones better.

    Only other thing to note is that visual acuity of people over 50 changes and as you get older you tend to perceive cooler white (6500K) as much brighter than warmer white even if they are the exact same lumen output.

    Also - younger generations that have been raised on energy efficient lighting in schools, home etc typically call cool white light sources "clean" and perceive warm white lighting to be "dirtier"...this was from a survey done by a national home builder who is trying to come up with a new home product that caters to the younger audience.

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    I have one odd thing to throw at you - our AXLE3WG65-3 module will probably only need one stroke on an 8" letter.

    I hate it when "will probably only need" ----------is used.

    On choices of white --- I personally think that 6500 white needs to be used as a "standard" and then go on from there. Why? Because that truly is the standard by which even egl 71 is compared. Depending on whether you're looking at "color", "brightness", or "enough" as in even light as the defining terms. Since perceived color is totally up to the client, and brightness is not a measureable term, "enough light" comes into play quite often. What you'll find in this sample test---is that "colors" are all over the place. Visual "brightness" is all over the place. And "enough" light is hard to determine. 6500 white ------has a range of Kelvin color. Led's are all over the place. If you turn on ANY letter, lit up by whatever your favorite choice is ---------- it usually looks pretty good. When you light up a second, and can compare----now the choices come in. Is it "whiter"? Meaning what----a bluer white, or a milky white. Your preference for the best is the determining factor. Leaving "brightness" out since it can't be measured, and looking instead at lux or lumens-----is there really enough difference to really care about? So, then, is it bright enough? IF instead, you set up a letter at one end of a dark room, and another at the other end of the room -------------- and then had to judge back and forth, rather than a side by side comparison ---------- the answers wouldn't be quite so evident.

    To compound all this --------in your samples. MOST led mfgs have different leds for different faces, and different choices for how much your cus;tomer wants to spend. Should we use the cheap axioms, or the more costly. The cheaper Sloan, or the more expensive Sloan, the cheaper Gelcore, or the more expensive ----------- and then, ask yourself why that particular one.

    One of the absolute best demos had virtually ALL the led's in samples--------and you could truly pick and choose which ones you wanted to light up and compare ---------- made some look pretty darn sick which comparing side by side.

    gn

    Let me clear that up - you only need one stroke of Axiom AXLE3WG65-3 for an 8" stroke. But then again Gary at your company you dont get to use the products that make the most amount of sense as you have to see what Monigle specifies. And do they build signs in their shop????

    I have a real problem with LED module manufacturers dictating to sign companies how to build a sign or the layout to provide. That is incredibly egotistical of an LED module manufacturer to think they "know how to build a sign" better than someone who has been doing it for years.

    Gary - you guys make signs, we make lights. I dont presume that you should know anything about Thermal Conduction or W/mK of a material, or what the reflow temperature is of a particular LED is...and I am not going to assume you want to learn about binning structures or the transmisivity of certain materials and how they may block certain wavelenghts of light. No different than you are not going to tell me why riveting a channel return rather than stapling may be better - or why a stainless steel halo lit letter seems to run hotter than a comparable aluminum letter.

    Simply put Gary - our new LED system is FRIGGIN BRIGHT and runs cooler than any other product on the market - and ironically uses an LED technology that is capable of handling more heat than anyone could believe - the LED on our product can handle a junction temperature of 125C (the human body runs at 37C and we interpret 57-60C as "burning"). So essentially our LED could physically burn you but still operate just fine.

    6500K +/- what %? Do you buy neon that way?

    And Gary it is your management choice not to make more money using a product that is more than 1/2 the price. Some companies have gotten a lot smarter and done their extensive engineering analysis and determined that our products quality/reliability and performance are the same or better than the others but just cost a lot less. They either pass that onto customers or split the difference with customers and make more money.

    The Great White Hope (Pre Project Thread)

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    I agree with Marko - should we set designer white 71 neon as the benchmark - it is what the world refers to as "the brightest"

    I have one odd thing to throw at you - our AXLE3WG65-3 module will probably only need one stroke on an 8" letter.

    On your testing proposal - we have the same setup for a letter running for well over a year using both Axiom AXLE4 and AXLE1WG series and have shown less than 2% degradation of light output...only differences is that they are running 24 hours a day and the temperature extremes go from 32F to 120F.

    You live in San Diego - how can the samples see "real temperature"? Send some to Marko to see how they do in cold (-30F).

    And Marko - "using the more popular brands like Sloan, Permlight, GE" - I can say that several people on this board that include the top 10 sign companies in the USA that were the largest customers for Sloan or Permlight have switched completely over to Axiom. GE...well we are trying to get them in a few places but hell I dont have GE Finance to help me loan a large sign company funds to build a new factory in the USA.

    Mercury - Neon, CCFL and Fluorescent

    in General Message Board

    Posted

    If I may add my 2 cents into this as I work at a plant that manufatures all types of fluorescents, specialty fluorescents and CCFl lamps. On the CCFL lamps in diameters from 2mm - 8mm, the lamps use a neon/argon gas mix with a gas pressure of aroung 50 - 60torr and only a few mg of mercury. the smaller the diameter and the longer the length greatly increases the lamp starting/ignition voltage. The highest is usually around 1200 volts and that is on a 2mm X 500mm lamp. Once the lamp strikes the operating voltage on the same lamp will drop to around 800 volts. The CCFL lamps use a very high voltage but a extremly low current, current levels are usually anywhere from 5 - 8mA. They are extremly efficent and if the lamps are driven properly the lifetine is up over 30,000+ hours. Also the phosphor used on the mini lamps (at least the ones we manufacture) use a Tri-band phosphor which is a red green blue mix. We have over 150+ differnt blents that we can use on these lamps. I know that sounds a bit crazy but the reason behind this is due to the LCD flat monitors are all differnt. If you pull a OEM lamp out and do not match it, it can throw the color of the dispaly way off, this is extremly important for us in Avionics applications.

    On T5, T8, & T12 lamps there is ~20 mg of mercury in them. On compact lamps, there are nothing more than a smaller designed fluorescent lamp that operates in the same manor as a T5-T8-T12 type of lamp. There are differnt methods for these lamps, such as rapid starting, instant starting, and filiament preheat. This is all depending on application and ballast.

    Sorry for the boring post but if it helps one person that it worked. If there are any questions you guys every have please dont hesitate to ask. If you want to see some of the applications that these products go into vist our website at www.lcdl.com not sure if you are allowed to post websites so sorry if that broke any rules.

    Jeremy

    THank you so much for your reply. Great website. Good source for future projects. I use to work at Microsemi Corp, we were the company that made and patented the CCFL inverter chips for avionics, laptop, in car navigation etc and you are right about lifetime and efficacy.

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