[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Matt there is a serious disconnect going on with you.

Then why are you in this thread taking tangents which is REAL application/topic specific, where Neon IS clearly the logical choice for savings and longevity? Everybody here already know the pros and cons of the light sources you don't need to beat that drum here on this board, like I said...we're all professionals here you're not mentioning anything new to sell us but at the same time you're regurgitating what is printed on the brochure rack of any sign supply house. Clearly LED's will not do a better job on this one whereas they can/will do on others. Drake will not make the ROI for at least 48+ years, it won't be as bright, the saving are 22% having a dimmer light output, it will degrade whereas the Neon won't, so?........

You're trying to force a square peg in a round hole, and anyone who is approached/contacted by ******** who is trying to peddle LEDs can easily read this thread upon a google search which is full of his own contradictions where he says LEDs are not superior....but yes they are....neon is old all in the same topi. Neon explodes and burns buildings down but yet wants to learn neon will know who they are dealing with, and how honest he is about what he sells and how honest he is with himself. I have some news for you Matt, anything will cause a fire when it's NOT installed/used right, Lights, Spa's, motors etc.

So know your a car mechanic gone LED sales rep, great! Just like our industry leadership who went from plastic/pool industry to sign industry.

You just need to stop and take a backseat because nothing you say is believable or credible at this point. Sorry you thought that this would be a slam dunk industry to walk in and sell too where LEDs can be sold to retrofit that "old, outdated" technology and LED LED LED is all go. Fact is, it's not.

Never tried to peddle anything. If someone asks, them I'll tell them whats out there & where they can source it.

If you want it, great, you'll find a way to get it, if you don't you won't. At the end of the day it doesn't bother me one bit.

Go ahead & say my name, just be sure you also tell these fine folks on the forum you thought a magnetic transformer was cost prohibitive for LED's, never saw it used it the field, & also didn't know an LED could be powered at AC current.

So you like calling people out? That's what this forum is about? Be sure & tell them what you didn't know about LED's.

Back to The Drake, this thread is over a year old. I'd like to know how that Sloan product is holding up being that this is a fair, informative place to share information on the WWW. If it were my building I would have left the neon alone, as I have also stated.

End of story.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Well, we deal with facts and real numbers here and hate to waste time with rambling, marketing points, and people who have no idea what their talking about and have strange assumptions about this board being "clickish" because they don't agree with you and because everyone is telling you your assumptions and selling points aren't true.

Call him? Well that's silly and childish, you're the one who has a "real good" relationship with him and I'm sure he appreciates you throwing his name out here for all to see and associate with you. We're professionals here who build and maintain the largest sign programs in the nation.

You keep asking about warranty for Neon, what has your "friend" told you? Why not relay what you think / told what that is?

It's not that no one wants to answer, well yes that is but you brought it upon yourself.....no one wants to answer because it'll go in one ear and out the other and you'll take another off ramp from the freeway of knowledge and start somewhere else just like you've done all over this thread.

You can play and throw the victim mentality card out all you want but i doubt we have that many "hardcore" neon people here that are so pro neon they'll even lie to themselves, if that's the case...we'll their wrong too and and that's why we do the testing here. it's straightened out my own assumptions and LEDs are AWESOME!!! You obviously don't read much of what's here. I sell to the electric sign trade both Neon & LED components but I won't bullshit to customers facts about light sources just to pimp a sale, in my experience of building and installing signs I've used both Neon & LED . It all works in the right application and some better than others, it's not just about the environment, it's about what and who they have to work with about what a shop will use.

You need to seriously take a back seat, read and learn what is "Really" in our industry and understand that it goes way beyond the brochure rack or a sign supplier and way beyond the garbage that's in our trade magazines and what's pushed/endorsed/omitted by our trade associations.

Neon is not dying, it's growing back again slowly and it's probably more profitable than it ever has been and brings more lean profits to a shop who can fabricate/build and install Neon.

Free country yes, free forum to do what you want...no.

Never said we were "good friends". I did however talk to him over the phone several years ago & he said he'd show me how to bend neon for a little lunch money. Why not say his name? I thought you wanted this to be an "open forum"? Amazing how the tables can turn so quickly huh?

Thanks, you're just reiterating what I've been saying all along.

If its not the kind of responses you want to hear then I'll gladly leave or you can gladly ban me.

Again, I never discounted neon. In fact, I love it. So stop trying to twist my words & everything is gravy.

Capiche?

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Hey Mark! Whats goin' on bud? Never heard back from you on the theme park deal so I figured you weren't interested any longer or just too swamped.

I never said LED's were superior, what I did say is each has their time & place. While neon may not be good for one application it may be good for another & vice versa.

I've personally witnessed LED's that have been up & burning for 15-20 years without interruption of service which brings me to ask you how many Honda Accords do you see from the early 90's with the red LED's still going strong on the rear spoiler. Those are 12 volts & out in the elements. As a certified mechanic I see it all the time. Never once have I had to replace an LED on a car, never.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Matt this is an electric sign forum, no one here does decals, and most here are VERY informed about our trade and industry. Your friend Brain is a longtime member here as well and I would be curious to know if he shares your same thoughts about the electric sign trade let alone Neon.

Gary has too much character/integrity to debate or argue with you but he's probably one of the smartest, most intelligent people of this trade. He's worked for himself as well as for some of the biggest companies doing project management/planning. You're still afraid to identify yourself so like him, it's pretty pointless to even lay facts up against your brochure marketing points. Like all unidentified anonymous drive by posters, soon you won't be here because of that, but it's been entertaining none the less.

If it's not apparent I'm sure everyone reading already just assumes your a just some guy who came from one industry to into this one selling LEDs, if not.....you sure seem like one, which isn't good for this trade.

Could have fooled me. Says it in his profile. I'm sure he's done electric signs as well. Not doubting that.

Long time member? Oh that's cool, but means nothing, really. I'm sure there are a lot of people that sign up here out of curiosity, find out its gimmicky at the core & never post or sign in again. Its just the way forums like this work.

You hardcore neon guys act like neon is the answer to everything when its not...neither is LED. Depends on the application, operating environment, etc. etc. Your neon, out in the real world, doesn't last in the frequent hail storms & vortex winds up on a 70 story building, much less at ground level. You neon guys can't change your entire theme at the swipe of a smart phone button. Technology is leaving you in the dust, bud. You either pony up or you fall by the wayside.

This board is obviously very click-ish & unwelcoming to new members, especially the LED guys you deem as "a threat to your industry".

I love neon & love seeing it used in certain applications, but again, its not the answer to every application, especially applications that call for different themes. Even Brian will tell you that. Call him up, here is his number in Dallas, Texas: 214-630-5045.

Getting back to my original question no one can seem to answer, what is the warranty on neon breakage or abrupt failure out in the field? 1 year, 6 months, 90 days? I honestly couldn't tell you as I don't know.

Will you re-pump for free if the gas leaks out due to a faulty seal or electrodes? How many fires have been started on buildings due to neon? I can Google some for you if you'd like, one just a month ago.

Questions like this are never answered on this board because its like venturing into the lions den with you neon guys. People are afraid to ask or say, I'm not. The only dumb question is the one never asked. You're no better than me & I'm no better than you. Like my grandfather used to say all the time..."you're just as good as the other SOB" & "let the other guy be the SOB not you". Worked for him all his life financially.

But hey, its a free forum & a free country, we can all agree to disagree right?

CIAO

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

This thread is over a year old. I'm just curious how the LED is holding up on The Drake.

The historic Magnolia Hotel here in Dallas can't keep their flying red Pegasus lit with neon even after an extensive overhaul & millions of dollars renovating it 15 years ago. Its a maintenance nightmare so they turned it off completely.

BEAUTIFUL sign, & arguably more historically relevant than The Drake in Chicago. It was built a year after The Drake, but stands over twice as tall at 29 stories. The Drake is only 13 stories tall.

The Magnolia Hotel was in its hey day the tallest building West of the Mississippi. Its iconic red horse could be seen from the ground over 30 miles away on a clear night.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Dont flatter yourself thinking you know mw. I dont do vinyl, dont paint signs, and have never done a love Gary sign. However, did do wholesale neon for my career. Nothing special....just neon, lots of it. Walgreens across the country, boston markets everywhere, targets, small jobs. My hands did the work...it wasnt me watching guys work. Just me and lots of glsss. In between did tons of research on dpumps, msnifolds, trodes, and oumping processes, and lots of glass.

So stop trying to bait me.

Back when the unemployment rate up there in Illinois wasn't hovering above 9%?

Gotcha.

There is enough work here to last me a lifetime & then some if I wanted to do neon.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Well I guess you answered my question.

Be careful of that neon guy though...he might be mad as a hatter.

Again, he doesn't plaster cars & boats with vinyl decals like yourself when the sign business gets slow or lease out digital message boards. All he does is neon wholesale, repair, & maintenance all day everyday. I'm going to learn under him when I've got some free time on my hands & lunch money to spare, not some guy who designs decals on a computer most of the day & bends neon once in a blue moon when the customer wants his GF's "I :heart: Gary" written in bright pink letters to hang on her bedroom wall.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

We get a kick out of some texans that write untruths.

You write that glass tubes release mercury, especially after they are broken? So you sre saying that if unbroken that they still release mercury? Ha.

You say that anyone bending neon for lots of years HAS to suffer from merc poisoning? Ha. My dad, 54 years, Al Sklar about 60 years, myself at 40 years, Dean Blazek at about 40 years.....and many more old farts that have died......did not have, nor ever have, issues with merc poisoning. Tim Cummings whose business was epa testing of neon shops would totally destroy your bunk about us old timers and merc issues.

How bout explaining to all of us a bit of who you are, your background in the sign business and your experience with neon AND led, and from where you have received such wrong information that you have been stating as fact.

Whats your background in LED's? You probably know just as much as I know or less given its a relatively new technology (last decade or so) within the field of lighting & design.

Its a learning curve. We all go through it. I've got a minor in electrical if that counts for something. I know electricity takes the path of least resistance. I know its the amperage not voltage that kills you. Whats your highest level of education?

Could I bend a stick of neon right now? Not if my life depended on it.

Could I bend a stick of neon after learning under Brian at Neon of Dallas for a few months? You bet your ass I could. Been seriously thinking about doing it just for the hell of it. He said all I gotta do is buy him lunch when I got change to spare & he'll teach me the ropes of bending neon. He would walk circles around 95% of the people on this board I guarantee that the dude is that bad ass. He doesn't plaster vehicles & boats with signs like yourself all he specializes in is NEON & strictly neon.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

I don't know how it is over there, but here in Texas we frequently get a good laugh out of the "Known To The State Of California To Cause" such & such labels. Sure, its proven on lab rats in dosages high enough to kill an elephant, but whatever. It is what it is.

If the Drake fails within 5 years Sloan will be the ones to fix it. Whats the warranty on neon?

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Interesting, so your not the Matt who has the lensless border units installed around Texas? Alright

Now that you bring up Mercury.

So, tell me what is harmful about Mercury (Quicksilver)?

Yes the EPA has listed it as hazardous but what has the EPA ever done that's logical or correct beside make it impossible to run a business. Mercury is a natural element. Did yo know it's supposed to be real dangerous if it mixes with underground wells or running water. But guess how many actual cases there are of mercury poison in our natural streams. Our streams are full of Mercury but not very many actual cases of poisoning. Is mercury mis-characterized? I think so. just like Neon is and has been.

Mercury is everywhere and it's more dangerous in the air in the form of vapor than it is in it's natural state. When a tree burns it releases mercury, then a volcano errupts it releases merc vapor and more than mankind has ever released on it's own in man's lifetime on earth. Most LEDs are made in china, china has coal plants that put merc into the air. Since most production is in China it takes more energy to make LEDs, the diodes, the drivers, the resistors and assembly than it does to make glass, all the meanwhile all that production coal plants put up more mercury. Spend 500 watts to save 5 watts?

If mercury is important to you and you feel there is danger, would you rather have your mercury up in the air for LEDs, or would you rather have it contained in a glass tube safe from children?

i had a environmental scientist tell me once that it's perfectly safe to swallow mercury. Would I do it? No, probably not, not because I think it will really hurt me but because I've been trained to think so. Sort of like seeing Jaws and having it ruined for myself of every wanting to go out and swim with the sharks or be in a shark cage.....personally I don't want to be anywhere near a shark, that movie ruined my life.

Those glass tubes do release mercury vapor, especially when they are broken, as happens VERY frequently around these parts, especially in the Spring (tornado season) & Summer/Fall (hurricane season) months.

There is no way in hell a neon guy that has been blowing a glass d%$k for 20, 30, 40, or 50 years doesn't have some sort of biological damage from that. You can't tell me that. Its called Mad Hatter's Syndrome & it is completely irreversible. Most neon benders work with well beyond what is considered the "normal" mercury exposure limit.

Thank God we all don't live in China. Coal plants releasing gas are the least of their concerns. Over crowding, lack of food & water, famine, disease, government corruption, & toxic land fills would be first.

Which environmentalist told you that? You live in California where they have regulations against everything else in the book (maybe even public sneezing) but not dealing with Mercury especially swallowing a vile full of it? I'm a bit suspicious on that one...

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Matt I don't know why you signed for a second account. I was a little suspicious when you called me but now I just have to assume that the LED system is yours and not one that you use.

I have a big feeling you have read nothing in this entire thread otherwise you would already know that ambient temperatures will not affect the Neon of this Drake Project.

But when you say Neon guys want to use SST's over Magnetic to be where the LEDs are what exactly are you saving?

First and foremost Neon is much much brighter than the flexible LED stuff so your not really able to compare or say one is more efficient than the other because the light sources are NOT equal. Your comparing a penlight to a maglight and stating the penlight is more efficient because it has a lesser cost of operation and uses smaller betteries.

In reality we can probably compare a fat 25mm Neon lamp to the flexible LED stuff and maybe the Neon would be low enough to make a fair comparison in light output and by that time, the neon lamp would be 1.8 watts (Hg) per foot or in this case for red, 2.1 watts per foot and now below that of the LED system (2.8 watt/ft) and using a magnetic neon transformer.

If you did your reading of this thread you would also know that a neon pumped lamp is just glass and gas, and cold frigid temps do not affect the light output. So there is nothing about Chicago that will dim the lamp to that of a firefly. Now we could question Chicago humidity and what they can do to electronics and LEDs. But again, that's another topic and another discussion.

Erik

1. I never signed up for a second account. I was however signing in from social networking & decided to make a real account. Shame on me.

2. I never called you. That must have been someone else.

3. I love both neon & led. There is a time & place for both. Ultimately its up to the sign guy to educate the customer on the pros & cons of both. Sadly, most don't have a clue.

4. Only the building owners can truly justify how their money was spent. Buildings get bought & sold all the time. Do you for a minute think they care if their neon or LED is up & burning in 25 years? They want the here, the now.

5. If it were me or my building I would have left the neon on this particular sign simply for a bit a nostalgia, but again, sometimes its the owners coming to you saying they WANT to go LED doesn't matter what it costs.

Thanks & have a good day.

PS why is this website displaying the wrong post times? Its a good 6 hours off on my end. Maybe that's also why you thought I made a 2nd account. You may have issues with your server or who ever hosts this site.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

You really should learn more. I am a neon guy, and love led. But can't stand the B.S. Neon is hazardous material, you say? 100 recyclable!! And a "green product" by the green people.

Not like the vast carcinogens released making led products. Learn more about what you speak bud.

Tell me...how are you going to capture those mercury vapors released by broken green & blue tubes?

I'd be amazed to know & would like to invent something like that some day. I might be a billionaire.

I know this much...only red is considered "neon".

What bothers me is the fact we were all sold on mercury tooth fillings by our dentists decades ago.

Its no wonder the old washed up neon guys are "mad as a hatter". It affects the brain chemistry sucking on those glass tubes. ;)

I kid.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Just post out on the open here for all to see.

I know we're not talking about modules. I'm just relaying the fact that good lasting LED modules run about $4 a foot, let alone having to pay for the extra make up for the clips, glue, extrusions, splicers and gel coats, silicone caots or lens etc etc. So $4 a foot to pay for all that just sounds cheezy and I'm sure the integrity and quality is not there.

Again, you're taking a tangent from the purpose of this thread which is "Open Face" channel letters where Neon & Flexible LEDs used to simulate "Neon". Not "Border" lights.

But yes, environment is a BIG key factor on what type of light source you want to use for your applications. Humidity, Heat, Frigid Temps, Hurricanes & Tornadoes.

If this Drake Sign was somewhere in the south where hurricanes touch down all the time and the purpose of going to LED was for that then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yes, climate does play a VERY important factor.

You are in California where neon works wonderful 365 days a year, I'm not. You guys are in a 100 year mega drought with no relief in sight. I would imagine those neon tubes would last forever unless you had an earthquake (God forbid) come rattle them loose or shatter them.

Getting back to the OP the sign is in Chicago where its below freezing for a good number of months out of the year. Neon will be dim as a firefly (if it even lights) while LED's are shining brighter than ever. So much for the holiday season in Chicago with neon.

Was it worth the retrofit for energy savings, tax rebates, & cold weather performance? Only the buildings owner can answer that question.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Surely you jest? After 150mph winds and the building and sign and town is demolished, the led's are still working? Whoooopie!

If the building were to catch fire I bet your led would burn and melt before the neon tube! I bet your 12v wire would shrivel up before the silicone wire would. If lightning hit, want to bet your electronic power supply would get killed before a core_coil transformer?

So if you are going to TRY and prove a point for led then skip your one extreme that is bull.

Nope, my system uses magnetic transformers.

You are just assuming all LED systems operate on electronic transformers...not the case. In places where an unsightly magnetic transformer in a box will take up space I will use a Meanwell LED transformer.

Funny because most neon guys are switching out their magnetic transformers for electronics to compete with LED's in energy savings.

I love neon, but its dying just like metal halides, sodium bulbs,& flourescents. They are considered hazardous materials.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

So Who has flexible LEDs for $4 a foot?

I'm not doubting you, but I'm not sure I would buy a $4 flexible LED system. Good modules alone run about $4 a foot, let alone adding in all the other components that can make up a flexible system. The one I would probably buy would be around $12-$15 a foot if I had to use one but that's just for unit without the components.

I'm not talking about modules I'm talking about border lights. I don't really do a whole lot of back lit signage so I can't say.

Erik PM me if you want details.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

So Who has flexible LEDs for $4 a foot?

I'm not doubting you, but I'm not sure I would buy a $4 flexible LED system. Good modules alone run about $4 a foot, let alone adding in all the other components that can make up a flexible system. The one I would probably buy would be around $12-$15 a foot if I had to use one but that's just for unit without the components.

I'm not talking about modules I'm talking about border lights. I don't really do a whole lot of back lit signage so I can't say.

Erik PM me if you want details on the flex.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

The tubes get hot enough to melt awnings blown up in a storm & start fires.

Say what????? Neon tubes produce very little heat at all. Less than LED strips actually. Talking about the limitation of neon and LED's is one thing - but don't make stuff up.

Maybe we could get Erik or someone with access to both to do some heat readings for us at the source?

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Repump when the gas leaks out? The tubes get hot enough to catch awnings on fire? And nothing bothers an led system?

The only valid thing you stated was leds run at 12 or 24 volts. Everyyhing else wss typical led bullshit propaganda. You trully n=d to learn a bit more about neon.....

The LED system I like to use is stable to hurricane force winds over 150 mph. Neon can't touch that.

Yes, there are things that do bother LED's such as heat & line surges.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Well, not at all.

Red Neon on average is about $3 to $4 a liner foot vs $18 a foot for flexible LED.

Let's not take tangents off the subject or get into exaggerations , this is for a top floor roof sign. No ones installing neon near anything flammable and I'm not sure who would do such a thing, I've never seen a lamp blow up or spontaneously cum-bust, nor start a fire. Never have I touched a "Hot" lamp, warm maybe, but not hot.

Please tell me how a Neon lamp or system is capable of starting that is to code?

I feel like I'm going to hear the one about go LED because the Neon lamps is 360˙ and throws light pollution where it's not needed and LEDs don't because their directional pinpoint lighting next, or Neon is not good for the environment.

Matt, I've never heard off "Light It up Integrations" out of Texas. Can you provide your contact info please so we know who we're talking too?

Erik, I don't know when the last time you checked pricing for flexible led was, but you can get the red from anywhere between $4 - $12 per linear foot now. Companies like Sloan & GE mark theirs up about 3-4 times that because of the name & fact they offer a "5 year warranty".

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

Just read that thread......I agree with you, but anyting tha w ill get the public to look to neon as an option is good in my book. Talking to some builders here, having neon listed as green gives them options with neon as architectural lighting options, and more for me to bend.......

Anything that gives correct info about LED vs neon is good in my book because neon will win that fight with proven reliability etc. I wonder how many refits we will all be doing when the sun kills all the plastic etc and the lumens of these led units drop to levels the salesman never told them about........oh well Keep bending!!

In areas with frequent hail storms, tornadoes, & hurricanes neon is simply not an option anymore.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

How long of a run? 48+ years on ROI?

Increase of safety? What do you mean? How is Neon a risk in/of safety?

Red LED's are comparably priced to neon these days so its a wash. Do you re-pump every so many years when the gas finally leaks out or throw a new plastic tube up when half of your LED's go out or diminish to extremely low light levels.

Safety meaning neon runs at much higher voltages than LED's do (15,000 volts vs. 12 or 24). The tubes get hot enough to melt awnings blown up in a storm & start fires. As hardcore as some of the neon guys are they fail to admit the constant dusting of tubes when used indoors & the breakage factor that comes along with using it outdoors, especially in areas like mine where we get frequent hail, tornadoes, & hurricanes none of which affects a well installed LED system.

[The Drake Hotel Sign]

I guess after 70 years they want a change, LOL Funny part is that the companies that supplied the glass and electrodes are one of the ones that are still around and able to provide replacement parts. I'm pretty sure that in even 5 years sloan or Olympic wont be able to supply replacement parts and even then it wont match like the clear red neon does.

This is why you have to educate the customer on the pros & cons of going with LED's & in what applications would you be most likely to use them. Yes, in 5 years time that Sloan system WILL probably be outdated & there WILL be an LED product in its place that is even brighter, more durable, & less expensive than both the neon & LED before it.

Its like playing the lottery.

Is the upfront cost worth it in the long run (5, 10, 15 years later) for the energy savings & increase of safety? That's something only the customer can answer.