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Got some news over the Fathers Day Weekend.


With the hard efforts from a few Neon Manufacturers and The Neon Group, they've finally broke ground in getting U.L. to recognize Neon as part of U.L.'s new program (ULVS) UL Verification Services (Sign Energy Certification Service), UL Green Leaf. The Neon Group has been hard at work behind the scenes to get this accomplished without the help of any other sign organization/association or International Sign Association.

If you're interested in not only having your electric signs be UL Listed (UXYT), but you can also pay the extra money to have your neon signs recognized as a "Green" (ULVS) product, and find itself slip into the easy process of filling out those California Title 24 forms when you go to file sign permits that are enforcing the CA State Energy Regulation.

I'm not a "Green" person in the slightest, but we all must applaud The Neon Group for doing all this leg work to have Neon recognized as a efficient lighting product, that is also a easily recyclable product as an option to show clients and outsiders of our industry that they are characterized and sit right alongside other light sources like LEDs.

The Neon Group can't do and continue these efforts alone, they get very little to no help from any other sign organizations or trade magazines for coverage so it's very important if you're a Neon shop, you support The Neon Group http://www.theneongroup.org/. They're trying very hard to fight back, reverse direction against the mis-characterization that has devastated an important heritage in our electric sign trade. Their fighting in the most important arena that can be fought, and has yet to be fought, the arena of "Public Opinion". So again, they need your help.

Electric Sign Energy Certification CFD.pdf


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Congratulations to the Neon Group for achieving recognition by U.L.'s Green Leaf program. One clarification I would like to make in the above post is that they "got this accomplished without the help of any other sign organization/association".

The Sign Industry Business Panel was formed in 2008 to work with UL on business issues of importance to the industry. The panel consists of reps from ISA, USSC and WSA, as well as U.L. The panel is chaired by Rich Gottwald of ISA. One of our earlier projects was working with U.L. to develop the Green Leaf program. The panel participated in developing the relevant U.L. certification criteria for the program.

While we did not participate in the Neon Group's work on this issue, the Sign Industry Business Panel did set the stage so that products like neon can be recognized for their performance.

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Hi Rich,

Thanks for chiming in.

This is my opinion, with fact mixed in.

I'd rather not see the International Sign Association endorse UL and their Green Leaf program, or an International Green Building Code. I don't think it does anything. I think it's nothing more than UL profit farming with mythical standards for mythical claims, I mean, what a great way to make money. Green just means charge the end user more and get less in return. Today I just learned we're having to pay almost $30 a gallon for our navy ships to use "Green Fuel", how about that. Our War ships need to be "Green"...I guess "Green" Tomahawk missiles are next. We won't want to make a mess when we blow up our enemy that is trying to kill us.

When you endorse, you agree.

Not sure what's been going on since 2008 with ISA but it would have been nice to see the International Sign Association take a stand on how efficient neon truly is (and say it!), and how recyclable it is. Help in fighting the mis-characterization that has been brought against one of our most important traditional aspects of this trade in the form of announcements, retracting of article claims, seminars that has been going on for over a decade. Oddly a lack in educational programs to educate the sign industry in pro's and con's of all light sources, but this seems to have stepped on toes where there was special relationships. So again oddly enough there was a shortage of programs???

Even in the SOT the International Sign Association reports, I have never read anything, just how "Green" and "Great" LEDs are. How "Green" is "not a trend but a migration". I'm just not big on promoting something that cannot stand or sell based on it's own merit, instead it needs a crutch, a game time handicap in the guise of a label called "Green". Worse yet, this (Green) gets put through legislation, the tax payers pay for someone else's hobby, we're all forced to use another product instead because the government picks the winner and our liberty seizes to exist ("When government expands liberty contracts")

It was disheartening in also seeing the International Sign Association's attempts to the NEC board to get outline neon lighting, a custom product, required to be a "recognized", listed/labeled product. Had it not been for the wisdom of the board to deny this attempt it would have further killed our heritage. Even more odd than that I still have yet to find out from ISA who started this proposal? No one seems to know, but someone has to have had to initiate it?
http://www.thesignsy...tions-revisals/

the Sign Industry Business Panel did set the stage so that products like neon

This statement troubles me.

Since 2008, why did it take The Neon Group having to do this on their own? As neon is our tradition, and to protect our heritage why did the International Sign Association not do this?


In short I'm not sure it's good to or take credit for "Paving the way" for something that was never accomplished, but it almost seems like the International Sign Association has hindered that cause. I don't know how to seriously take that statement with any credibility for all I've named above.

Instead the sad reality is, the International Sign Association got used and became an enabler by those who had their own business financial agenda of shooting down a product and replacing it with another through false marketing claims (possibly their own products?). The truth is I can't hold ISA as sole ownership of this, a lot of other associations and trade magazines got manipulated too. They all stood by and stood down and let the marketeering vermin who aren't even of/from this industry, grossingly, sickingly annihilate the neon aspect of this trade with false marketing campaigns, fuzzy math of fast ROI and Article write ups to nowhere. That's something I don't understand to this day.

Neon hangs still by a shoe string thread. So...no, The Neon Group in my eyes did this completely by themselves and credit is shared with no one else but the group, a few manufacturers, people who care, and small neon shops who's very existence, means to make a living is/has been in jeopardy. They got no help.

The positive side, I see Signs of The Times appears to be doing a 180, and good for them, that means good for us! I hope to see a few other ships turn and stir in that same direction as well.


I think it's time to clean house, close the golf course, get a new panel, composed of new people. I think ISA needs a freshman class who have/hold "tradition" in their hearts and who have new ideas who can explain a statement with facts and figure and not just "Execute, but never explain" like the "Magic Mouth" association board members.

I'm glad to suggest a handful of individuals that could do a much better job, individuals from this site that are engineers, project designers fabricators & installers, people who know the industry in which they work in, not a marketeer.
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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Congratulations to the Neon Group for achieving recognition by U.L.'s Green Leaf program. One clarification I would like to make in the above post is that they "got this accomplished without the help of any other sign organization/association".

The Sign Industry Business Panel was formed in 2008 to work with UL on business issues of importance to the industry. The panel consists of reps from ISA, USSC and WSA, as well as U.L. The panel is chaired by Rich Gottwald of ISA. One of our earlier projects was working with U.L. to develop the Green Leaf program. The panel participated in developing the relevant U.L. certification criteria for the program.

While we did not participate in the Neon Group's work on this issue, the Sign Industry Business Panel did set the stage so that products like neon can be recognized for their performance.

Arrogance at it's peak>>>>>>

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Congratulations to the Neon Group for achieving recognition by U.L.'s Green Leaf program. One clarification I would like to make in the above post is that they "got this accomplished without the help of any other sign organization/association".

The Sign Industry Business Panel was formed in 2008 to work with UL on business issues of importance to the industry. The panel consists of reps from ISA, USSC and WSA, as well as U.L. The panel is chaired by Rich Gottwald of ISA. One of our earlier projects was working with U.L. to develop the Green Leaf program. The panel participated in developing the relevant U.L. certification criteria for the program.

While we did not participate in the Neon Group's work on this issue, the Sign Industry Business Panel did set the stage so that products like neon can be recognized for their performance.

Arrogance at it's peak>>>>>>

Are we suppose to thank him for the Green Leaf program ? LOL

The ISA's "business panel" hasn't done shit to preserve and protect the integrity of the sign industry .

It's just a tool for those pulling the strings to manipulate and dictate the direction the market must take.

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This shows how really far out of touch the International Sign Association is, and this is why I say it's time to close the golf course and clean house and fire their consultants who do and say just so they can keep their jobs instead of "doing nothing" to better and keep the industry a better place. But they won't. The ISA core that is housed in DC/Virginia needs to realize who they've surrounded themselves with, and who they've built long term relationships with. Or, maybe it's the core that IS the biggest problem.

I'm of the assumption the International Sign Association thinks the Green Leaf program is a plus to have, something positive to be apart of, it was something to be proud of "to work with UL" in creating. Again, they got used, THEY became the "useful idiots" for those who have the purpose.

I don't think they get that the Neon group did nothing more than pay an extortion to get Neon labeled as "Green" with this accomplishment. ISA doesn't get that the "Green" myth, something that they've backed and is a movement that killed the Neon industry. So the Neon Industry had no choice but to "Prove" so to speak, and pay to prove that Neon is Green to help fight the MANIPULATED "Public Opinion". This is not about making Neon or a product Green, it's about competing and keeping up with the GREAT environmental movement "lie"

NO ONE wants to pay for a Green leaf Program, and no one will as far as Neon side is concerned. The Neon Industry will just NOW be abe to say "they can" or say "Neon is Green because UL says it can be" and leave it as that. You won't see a Neon component MFG or Neon shop sign up to be UL Green Leaf, that's crazy talk.

If ISA think this is something to hang their hat over, have at it. They just enabled a bureaucrat, profit farming, head scratching, don't know their right from left hand "supposed to be non-profit" become bigger. Good going.



There is a divide in the International Sign Association ranks, I hope those who want to do what is right, come out with it.


Like I said before, I got you.

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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Like everything else in this country, or probably the world.....follow the money!

UL has become a money machine. When I started in 88 the only organization out there like this was OSHA. When OSHA came into your building you had to basically bribe them to not find anything major wrong with your facility. UL, UAW, OSHA, City inspectors, IRS, and now even the police forces are out there patrolling the streets with only one thing in mind. Generating money for their city and their union so they can continue to work. Property taxes have gone down, ticket writing has gone up!

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      ECO TYRANNY

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