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By Erik Sine
So...
I haven't posted any jobs lately and I need to play catch up.
So I'll start with our latest projects and work myself backwards
As we've discussed so many times on the Sign Syndicate. There is a time to retrofit, and a time not too. Neon and Fluorescent lamps/systems should not in most cases be retrofitted to LEDs unless accessibility calls for it. Otherwise, it doesn't make financial sense for the consumer to do so, or....just so a shop can make a project sale on BS energy efficiency numbers and mythical saving $$$$
So here are some retrofit jobs that make REAL sense.
NEON RETROFIT
Here's a chain of Studio's that I've been doing since the early 2000's.
This particular sign is only partially mine, everything from the Logo and red letters.
This was the first job I did for them leading up to fabricating all new signs for their locations. The white is from the previous location and Neon has been in it's original form since the late 90's, and it's 6500K Snow White. The logo is 15mm Tri-phosphor, Elite 65D I believe. The Logo and Red was done in 2008. It's very hard to tell because red and white is hard to capture and a cell phone cam does no justice but the White lettering is dimmer than illustrated and is about 50% of it's original light output.
Not bad for 20+ plus year old lamps!!
So the owner called up and wanted a revamp. Had I been the average shop you bet the immediate response would have been LED! SAVINGS!!!!! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!
Well, no.
We're logical over here in SoCal, a land where 50¢ modules would have replaced the Lamp Art.
The logical choice, and more economical choice for the consumer?
Going from a single halo phosphate 6500K Snow White Neon lamp to a Tri-Phosphor EGL Designer 7100 Series Lamps.
When we moved and installed (2008) this sign we did so with Tecnolux Silicone GTO and Caps. All that was needed for this retrofit was new lamps, and leaving the awesome silicone GTO and transformers in place!
Now, I owe you a night shot, the iphone pic I took was garbage, so I'll update that soon. But the Logo and White letters match up well, and even with the old faces, the sign illuminates like a new sign at night.
Forgot to mention, the white faces are also from the 90's and they've held up quite well, the Trim Cap is Plasco, also held up quite well for 20+ years old. During the day, the ace look good, so no need to replace.
LED RETROFIT
So a new client...
They called, they were moving and wanted to know if they needed a new sign or whether to fabricate a whole new on because the current was lit up like crap. Had hot spots, dim a places, and just crazy outages in sections of letters.
It would have been better had I taken night pics, BUT...I didn't know I would be posting and writing about it here so
Had this been some other shop, I'm sure the nightmare would have continued
Yes, two different LED manufacturers in the same sign Woohoo, the electric sign industry in it's finest form right here! It made me SO proud!
If you're familiar with Gaverieli Plastics, I need say no more, let alone Chinese JS LED's....well, their both China and their both crap.
They don't last, they fail, they cause companies problems with having to go back and replace and most importantly...They cost the consumer, YOUR client.
The second sign which they had, made at a different time and by another company was US LED, also garbage. Illumination was just as bad. Sorry, didn't get pics of that sign because again, it wasn't my plan to make a post here
If this wonderful, thoughtful sign package doesn't make you cry, I don't know what will.
The original plastic was green vinyl over white acrylic and in such a short time this sign was beat, and probably why they called a new contractor for the work for their sign move.
Well, a new sign made no sense.
They were just moving a few suites over and they weren't going to get a larger sign so the original would do. New faces with 3M Lime Green over White acrylic.
The most important aspect of this Sign....
Yes!
NC Reckless-3 LEDs. Top Tier Samsung Diodes running on a Constant Current system...NOT Constant Voltage. 1.2 watt modules. Most important detail about our NC Reckless LEDs? Their made in Korea NOT CHINA!!!
Beautiful!
Check out that crazy light meter reading! That's almost 300 surface Foot Candles, which is about the equivalent light output to a 13mm Tri-phosphor white Neon Lamp behind white acrylic.
If that is not simply utterly gross and disgusting, and you're not just sickened by that number, you have no stomach
These Reckless-3 LEDs will NOT be powered up by their low budget power supplies but rather our Union LED Power Supplies made in KOREA, not CHINA!!!
It's usually best to retrofit out with what was already in a sign, and not change one light source to another. It's makes more financial sense in MOST cases, not all, but most.
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By Erik Sine
NC LED Get's Better and Better $69.99!
Introducing the NEW NC LED "White Horse" Wide Angle Constant Current Series.
The White Horse CC series is a diffused lens LED module to better spread the light for shallow electric sign applications like 2" push thru architectural cabinets and channel letters available in 2, 3, and 4 chip diode configurations.
The module is the same as the NC Reckless series discussed here
http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7353-bright-long-lasting-channel-letters-and-what-it-takes/
• IP68
• 5 Year 50,000 Hour Warranty
• 160˙ Wide Angle Diffused Lens
• Constant Current, NOT Constant Voltage
• High Brightness LED Module
• Made in Korea NOT made in CHINA!!!
• ONLY $69.99 per 100 WH2 Modules 42' Linear Feet
NC LED DOWNLOADABLE SPEC SHEETS: NC-SS-0416-Brochure.pdf
This White Horse series is a 160˙ degree light disbursement LED module and is the same chip for brightness as our Reckless series but because of the diffused lens the light is spread better for even lighting for shallow based sign faces for channel letters, dimensional letters or cabinets.
As you know diffused wide angle modules won't be as effective for standard channel letter illumination as the Reckless series but great for shallow depth channel letters BUT, with the sick brightness of the NC Reckless LED series you can probably use this for both applications.
Two great modules with the same makeup mixed with high Korean standards, with these standards think high, over engineered Japanese standards.... lastly..........say it with me.......NOT made in CHINA!!!
For orders use our online shopping cart or to contact us call or email
(858) 880-1400 / orders@thesignsyndicate.com
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By Erik Sine
Okay so....
WOW!
I'm quite impressed....
So I'd like to introduce our newest addition to our family. The NC White Horse Nano!
These lil suckers are BRIGHT as hell. Their about .4 watts each, True White high quality tier/grade 6500K Samsung Diodes.
Their approx 5 mini modules per foot, they come in 100 module strings and you get about 25' per string....and as you can see, 3 diodes per module, and just like it's bigger brother "The White Horse" their 160˙ wide angle modules.
But, because their so small, these only come in constant voltage NOT constant current. The upside is, these are lower wattage modules.
So many possibilities with these high quality modules that are small, yet pack a BIG punch of light...DAMN!
The good news is, their only $82.99 per string of 25'......The bad news is, there was a miscommunication and they only sent us 20 bags, but more are on the way.
P.S.- NOT made in CHINA!!!
NC LED 's are generally pretty small anyway, especially the Reckless-2, but as a visual the White Horse Mini is significantly smaller!!!
With Great Channel Letter Benders like the SDS/AdamsTech Machines out there creating some small 8" to 5" Letters, below are a few LED moduldes for visual layout purposes. Tot he far Left we have our NC White Horse Nano, and NC Reckless-2 to the right of it. The Reckless-2 can work as well but imagine if this letter just just a little bit smaller. Visualize the other components needed for in conjunction with the poly-carbonate backs. The tab support for the aluminum pan letters, the peg stand-offs and well as the secondary wiring hole.
Larger modules don't make sense for these small tight letters. With the White Horse Nano's, having that extra room to move modules around makes more sense along with more even lighting than using long or larger modules. With the White Horse Mini's you won't struggle with letter assembly.
The Brightness?
Everything you would expect from our NC Reckless & White Horse LED Line
You can purchase these from our online shopping cart
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By Erik Sine
Competition Light NOT "Usable Light"
As some of you may already know The Sign Syndicate has been testing NC LEDs since 2010 in Project Tighty Whitey, The Red Light District, & Blue Light Special and after the first 8,000 hours I was pretty impressed in "PTW", even in that short about of time we saw no light degradation (Lumen Maintenance). So I was always interested to see how they progressed, err....regressed in light as time went on.
As many of you know, I don't use LEDs as a primary light source for channel letters unless I have too.
When I have had to use LEDs over the years I've always been real careful about what LED manufacturer I use, and there is a VERY, VERY short list of who I use/used because I'm one of the few electric sign manufacturers that offers my clients a 5 year electrical "Worry Free" warranty that INCLUDES labor to change any electrical component out and I stress....."I"...chose to use for their sign.
For this very reason you can pretty much chuck most LED marketing brochures in the garbage that states their LED's last 50,000+ hours of operation without loosing any light output. Most of the time they've never even tested their own to see how long they last of they take a result of 2 to 5 thousand hours and project to you the consumer those results which usually show little to none and project them in a slow gradual path of light loss. You can't do that that with LED's, but you can when it comes to light degradation with Neon & Fluorescents who have a much larger case history to go off of and it's just phosphor loss unlike LEDs which have so much more to loose.
Most sign shops stick to the 1 year state mandatory (contractors licensing law) warranty, and "optional" or limited component warranty that does NOT include labor for up to 5 years. So should some component YOU chose crap out on your client then I guess they call you, you get a free replacement from the manufacturer and YOU end up charging YOUR client to replace something YOU specified out.....oh real nice!!!
With my clients I put my money where my mouth is, so that's why my list of who to use is short, if it goes bad because of what I specified out I eat it, NOT my client!!!
5 years is a long time, and those who pay attentions to the 3rd party testing that The Sign Syndicate has been doing since 2008 knows most LEDs don't last as long as claimed, at least when it comes to "usable" light.
I've been using NC LED for a particular program for a few years now where I have to use LEDs because the use of electrical component clearance is impossible for Neon. Over the years the results have been awesome using NC LED, and of course happy clients.
The main reason why I choose to use NC LED for my program before we even started selling it here which is obviously recent, is because from the testing we have been doing here namely Project Tighty Whitey as it applies here.....there are a few things in common the brighter white LEDs in the comparison that last longer than others have in common.
1st....Their made in Korea, very tight quality control, think "Japan"!.......NOT China where they have quality control issues. Don't let anyone tell you different, there is too much of a track record and case history for INCONSISTENCY and manufacturers have to constantly hold the hand of the Chinese to make sure they're getting consistency and this is why American companies play musical chairs with Chinese plants who make their products.
2nd....Their constant current, or current regulated on each module...NOT constant voltage aka "Eco". So if you're not familiar with that term Constant Current just know each module is 12 volts from the first to the last on a string. A LED module that is ...NOT CC is constant voltage, aka "Eco"! Those are unregulated and the first LED module on a string is different than the LED on the last, or middle. It also means the first LED on the string could be taking a big hit from the power supply because it's not regulated and you'll get faster degradation as well as uneven lighting.
CONSTANT CURRENT vs CONSTANT VOLTAGE
This is not to say others that aren't with similar characteristics will last nearly as long (there have been exceptions), in past versions degradation over 15,000 hours or 5 sign years is left on 8 hours a day has been about 0 to 3% of the original illumination, that's something that should interest you and the end user, and newer versions only get better with heat dissipation.
NC LED come with three different diode manufacturers, SOL, LG, & Samsung ("Reckless"). I took a personal hand for us to use SAMSUNG, their white is brighter than the other configurations, it's more of a true 6500 white, and you need bright! The LED colors that we stock are SOL chip.
Every LED manufacturer has their marketing claims on Lumens, Viewing Angle, Lens..no lens, etc etc etc. From the Neon & LED testing we have been doing here on the Sign Syndicate they can throw all that out the window because it doesn't translate into anywhere when it comes to the sign industry, how we use them, and how it makes them last over time. 90% of the time it's just a sales pitch to throw at you on why you should buy their over another one. Who cares about Lumens when it comes to signs...we light up a sign face and only care about surface light! Viewing angle??? Don't get me started!
What do we care about being in the sign industry? That it's bright, and most importantly it lasts over time....well...at least the client does more so than the sign sign shop because it's them who will have to pay to re-retrofit to something else.
So, we're very happy to offer the NC LED "Reckless" light source product to our members that we know works as an option for your sign projects here on The Sign Syndicate. It's nice to add another High Brightness LED to our line up, AND the Reckless-2 is the brightest LED in it's class of under 1 watt per module and under 3 watts per foot than anything on the market today!
If you're the type of shop that just likes to stick to big name LED manufacturers because you think you're playing it safe and you're also not too familiar with the testing The Sign Syndicate has been doing since 2008 let me just say this. From all the testing we have been doing with out benchmark testing, and we've talked about it a lot in the past. You pay a lot of money to big name LED manufacturers and the product itself is most of the time is average and most a lot of times subpar compared to what's out there from a few small select LED manufacturers. You pay a lot and you get very little. What I mean by that is, you don't get a whole lot of light in return and you could pay significantly less and get a brighter light output and a product that will even last longer. Not all big names, but you'll have to download the quarterly results that we have in the Board forum and judge for yourself.
Like I said, there are VERY good results from a FEW select companies in Project Tighty Whitey and NC LED is one of those few, AND that's why I'm very proud to offer it to our members.
Why leave money on the table choosing someone else and why not have a more satisfied client using NC LED?
NC LEDs come in both forms, Constant Current "Reckless" as well as Constant Voltage "Eco"(ECO Series), we will be concentrating on the Constant Current versions of these LEDs
Basic NC LED Specs
• IP68
• 5 Year, 50,000 Hour Warranty
• Constant Current (Regulated) not Constant Voltage like cheaper "eco" LEDs
• Made in Korea.....NOT made in China
• High Brightness LEDs
• Samsung Diodes for white
• Sol Diodes for color
As I stated above, we're offering 100 of the most versatile NC LED "Reckless" Modules which is the two diode Samsung configuration, the Reckless-2 powered by Samsung for only $79.99
Specification Cut Sheets (Updated 4/25/16)
NC SS Brochure.pdf
Lastly I need to mention that I power up these bad boys with our also Korean made LED Power Supplies by Union Elecom
So if you're burning out those cheap import Chinese LED power supplies, (even the so called "Engineered In America...Made In China.." type) and you can't figure out why after loading your power supply to a safe 50 watts on your 60 watt power supply which REALLY may only be able to handle a 40 watt load because of make, convection cooling, and due to the environment in which it's in you might want to get a hold of their derating curve chart and see what your product may be able to handle. Plastic power supplies = NOT good.
So....we now stock the Union Elecom Class II, Listed, 60 watt and 120 watt (Dual channel) LED Power Supplies. These LED Power Supplies are IP68, and fitted with 1/2" nipples so you can simply hook up the primary with a junction box that has 1/2" thread knock-outs so you don't need a Transformer Box to house your power supply for remote installs.
Again, why Union Elecom if you're not familiar with the name or company?
First, their Korean, that means high quality standards. This is what they do, this is what they do best....they make power supplies.....solely! Unlike some other companies who offer power supplies but it's not their primary focus, they really make LEDs or other products as their primary. They just "offer" a power supply to go with their LED's. THAT can be bad and as we all know, we've seen plenty of failure on the field whr we have to come back and replace over and over again!
UNION ELECOM LED POWER SUPPLY
Members can purchase these LEDs by phone (858) 880-1400, emailing us orders@thesignsyndicate.com or use our online Shopping Cart LINK
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By Erik Sine
So....we've had them and I haven't been pushing them out because I didn't think they were right yet.
But now that time has come.
Been to a few shops of customers and when I saw what I saw, I had to push for it. It's al because one of my customers recently obtained a new AdamsTech Bender. So now he's producing Channel Letters, reverse Channel Letters that are so small and tight the worry is no longer being capable of producing such a letter the worry is now....how the hell to power it up PROPERLY. It's hard to put existing modules in, competent LED modules I mean.
Well....In mid to late September we will have NC LED White Horse Nano (Far right)
Their 160˙, same top tier Samsung used in our White Horse Product Line. Their about 4 per foot and power consumption will be .48 per module.
If the Reckless 2, and White Horse 2 weren't already small enough as is, the White Horse Line will fit and integrate into all those hard to reach places and give you a bright light output
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Sign Suppliers selling to anyone for that extra dollar. I know it well. I can not blame anyone for trying to make more money or extra money on the side. We all have done it. When a supplier goes into business selling to the trades, that is his profession and that is what he is building his business on If the Supplier wants to sell to the public and or manufacture themselves and sell directly. Let them. You can do the same. Buy Direct. Buy someplace else. Knock them out of the picture. Make them hurt. I did it several times with a supplier. I stopped ordering from them. Sometimes I paid less, Sometimes I paid more. But that supplier lost everything from me. That was a big hit to them and they felt it immediately. New Suppliers want your business and want their competitors out of business also. The suppliers came back to me and with better pricing and service. They also changed their policies. Get a few shops together on this and watch the impact you will make. -
By Henry van de Werken · Posted
Great used condition Flatbed Ladder Truck for sale. 2007 International 4300 DT466 Inline 6 Diesel. 183,500 miles, manual transmission with 16' bed. Contact Joe Havlovitz at jhavlovitz@kiefferstarlite.com or (920) 453-4160. Fleet_Listing.pdf -
It's no shot at me, no worries. I'm semi -retired on sign production. I only have a handful of clients that refuse to go elsewhere. Also, it's only in my local market. Our Electric Sign Supply sales don't amount to much here locally because our market is all based on lowest price NOT quality....it's a shame really The upside to the few items I distribute is that I know what I'm talking about unlike the distributor/sign supply rep most talk too on product information or questions. I give customers and sign shops my first hand knowledge on use and testing and won't read them info from the product "Faq" page, or rely on info from some manufacturer rep if a product is going to "last" Staying somewhat active in sign production/installation also keeps me up to speed with the Electric Sign Industry trends and active demand as well as codes, unlike a sign supply rep who was selling cars one week to selling sign components...or a sign supply rep who has been around for years but yet never produced or installed a sign. The Sign Syndicate Members and Customers worries, are also my worries...it's always been that way I only distribute products I have tested, used, and or created ourselves like our new BrightON LEDs which has been taking the best characteristics of LED modules from all our testing over the years and putting it all into one product line. I'm not looking to be the next big sign supplier, far form that. I just want to sell high-end components to shops looking to produce high-end signs that last...and work efficiently. But I feel you on the COVID shut down, how it's making for desperate times. People loosing their jobs, working minimal hours, schools shit down and requiring zoom only and requiring parents to stay home and not work if that is possible. Making people get into areas they might not normally dap into I could write a long thread with all the BS Kirstie is dealing with at the hospital and how the medical community is widening/broadening COVID symptoms to count more people all to get paid more by MEDiCAL, and to politically keep the number positive cases higher. In my state, with what they're doing...we will never open up. It's not testing more to get a higher number of +'s....it's broadening and changing what can lead to + symptoms... Sorry for taking a medical tangent on your thread....it just pisses me off
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We all know times are tough. How do y'all feel about your local Sign, Metal, Plastic Supplier transitioning into selling direct to the public? I like many other sign shops have added Social Safety Barriers to their portfolio. What's your alls take on this? Example, I was just talking to my main metal wholesale supplier. The CSR told me to check out their new line of Barriers. Needless to say she got a polite earful from me. I for one am not going to compete with my suppliers. When this CV19 bs is over. Will they start selling pre built cabinets, or offer channel letters direct to the public as well? Erik, this isn't in any form directed to you. You've always been upfront with your sign/supplier sales. This is directed towards the big guys who have always sold only to resellers. I will not be giving them my business for eternity. -
We like the plastic clips. I completely agree with the 1-2 click rule. Having that extra travel has saved us a few times. We get the face fairly tight/smooth then go around the whole thing depressing the clips another click or two as needed. The tensioning tool makes short work of that last little bit. Puckering might be a sign of having it too tight as well. Yes, I've done that. Either that or the sign needs additional supports. Its amazing how much tension a flex face puts on a cabinet, especially if it was not designed for a flex face originally.
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