Camelot Sign

I assumed (maybe wrongly) that the ban applied to both neon and fluorescent ballasts. The same problem is true with reliablity on electronic ballasts for fluorescent lamps. I basically think all electronic transformers ##$##$$. The main difference between the electronic fluorescent ballast and neon transformers for this case is that the fluorescent ballast is normally contained within the sign cabinet with the wires being run in a raceway. Usually the wire that is already connected to the ballast is all that is needed in the cabinet to wire the lamps. The raceways are also just a touch larger than 1/2" conduit used with neon installations. Neon transformers are usually remote from the neon so the GTO has to be run in conduit which really causes trouble at high frequency. Even if the power supply is in a raceway behind the letters...the GTO, electrode or something still has to pass through a metal wall unless the sign is made entirely of plastic. Electronic power supplies do have different rules and sometimes I even think they twist the rules of physics.

Chiming in. I don't believe a ban on magnetic neon transformers is being pushed. I have yet to see an electronic neon power supply that can have 10 feet of gto wire run through conduit. I do believe that magnetic neon transformers will be around for quite some time. It's my understanding that magnetic fluorescent ballasts are dropping by the way side. This is where the electronic ballasts are coming into their own being a bit easier to wire and they do use less energy to achieve the same light output. My opinion, they don't last quite as long as a magnetic ballast because of the electronic components life expectancy. That would be somewhere from 5 to 10 years depending on the environment. A magnetic ballast could last closer to 20 years with the weakest part being the ballasting capacitor. Dave

Fluorescent lighting does seem to be a grey area Manuel. Speaking only of parallel wired electronic ballasts, if the one lamp that goes out does not reduce the remaining lamp load to below the minimum footage recommended for that ballast the ballast will run just fine without overheating. Now if that lamp going out takes the remaining load below the minimum footage the life of the ballast will be shortened. If the sign is dim and only a couple of lamps are lit it is better to turn it off and at least save the ballast and at least the expense of replacing the ballast. I get loading questions for fluorescent ballasts both magnetic and electronic, T12 and T8, and they appear to be the same questions from different people. Another point to remember is that when using an electronic ballast with only one wire going from the ballast to the socket, connect that wire to BOTH wires of the socket and if a jumper is needed to get to the next socket use another wire. Too many times the ballast wire is connected to one wire on the socket and the other is used to jump to the next. This sends all of the current for both lamps through the first lamp and burns it our very quickly. I'll stop typing now... Dave

An electronic ballast with parallel wiring provides each lamp with whatever current they need to run. If one lamp were to burn out or be removed it shouldn't effect the rest of the lamps life or operation. Will it cut the power used in half if one lamp of a 2 lamp fixture were removed? No it won't. There is still power required by the ballast to run the remaining lamp. Power usage may be reduced but not by much really. The only thing that really happens is that the light output of the fixture has been cut in half. If this is done with all of the fixtures in a parking garage you will have a dimmly lit garage. This also makes it a bit more dramatic light wise if that one lamp in the fixture goes out and that area is even darker. If the ballast is a magnetic or series wired ballast both lamps would be out or the ballast would still attempt to start both lamps and that would reduce the life of the remaining lamp and could shorten the life of the ballast.

I was at the show Thurs, through Sat. and from what I saw in the parking lot there were quite a few people attending this year. Unfortunatly I think most were looking more in the digital graphics area. The LED booths were active but not near what the printer or router folks were doing. Those booths concerned mostly with electrical signage didn't have much traffic compared to the number of people there. I managed to miss a few places I wanted to visit but then again I was working the first two days so only really had Sat. to wander around. I really don't know if I ran into anyone from here other than Sean over at EGL or not. I wasn't identified as Camelot Sign for a couple of days. One of these days it won't matter though. Had a good time seeing familiar faces anyway. Dave

I heard that rumor this weekend at the show but wasn't able to confirm it. I heard it was because of lack of parts availability.

I'll be in Orlando this year. Since it's just down the street I can't afford not to go. Thurs. and Fri. I'll be working in the France booth so stop by. I'll be walking the floor on Saturday. I look forward to meeting at least some of you on here. Just look for a guy about 6' 3" in the France booth and you'll most likely have found me. Of course that could help avoid me too.

Since it's just down the street a bit, well 45 miles down the street, I'll be going. Part of my time will be spent in the France booth and the rest wandering the floor. Dave

I have had the oportunity to used different 12VDC power supplies with different LED brands and as long as the output is not over loaded they have worked just fine. I have heard that if you don't use the power supply some manufacturers recommend or supply with their LED's they will NOT warranty the LED's. In my experience 12VDC is 12VDC and 60 watts is still 60 watts. Dave

I had a couple of calls this past Friday along these same lines that seem to confirm this.

Thanks for all of the reponses. I kind of figured there is more to the story than I was being told over the phone. At least I know we are all on the same page as to listed and recognized. That sign shop, by the way, has been taken care of and they are contacting their UL inspector to make sure everything is ok.

They mentioned that this had happened to them with a previous sign and what you said here may be just what happened. They hadn't built the sign yet and were checking to make sure they wouldn't have to re-build the sign later. My advice to them was to get in touch with their UL inspector or someone at UL in advance to make sure what they wanted to use was ok. they had said that the UL inspector told them the only thing they could use in the sign was a listed HID ballast. Not necessarily the France Sign Bright but any other ballast that was only recognized. That kind of limits the choices and is something that I didn't quite understand. If a component is recognized and in the SAM manual it should be able to be used in a listed sign. A listed component can also be used in a listed sign but can also stand on its own. You don't necessarily have to use a listed component in a listed sign. That is the way I understand it.

I just had a rather strange phone call concerning UL Listed and UL Recognized components. A sign shop is building a large cabinet sign and is using HID to illuminate it. They called asking if the France HID Sign Bright product was listed or recognized. It happens to be a recognized component. They then informed me that they couldn't use it because they were told by their UL inspector that all components used in the cabinet sign had to be listed and that recognized components wouldn't make it. I asked if they were a UL shop and if the end sign was going to have a UL sticker on it and the response was yes they are a UL shop and it would have a sticker. I thought that recognized components were ok to use in a finished UL sign. Am I wrong in this? This is the first time I've had this one asked just wanted to bounce it off folks here especially the UL folks lurking around. Dave