Erik Sine

This year we had a shorter than normal trip to ISA's Sign Expo held in Las Vegas. We left on a late afternoon Thursday and returned early crack of dawn on Sunday. How was the show? Well, it was your normal ISA show. Walking in it was exciting and fun, with a DJ spinning right as you walked in. On our first day it was pretty hilarious. There was some derelict who seemed to wander in the registration line who was laying on the floor who had his ass hanging out with an elder ISA registration agent trying to help him up without touching his bare ass He had nocked down the a few of the line polls and was just mentally out of it, he didn't know where he was. Kgirl was pretty sure it was a attendee, but I didn't think so unless the party just didn't stop since the night before We were very "in and out" with the NC LED booth and concentrated our time on the show room floor to see what was new. Not a whole lot new, one thing that was new was the printy solvent smell that was strong from previous years. I guess they had ventilation this year??? However, there was a lot of talk about this topic there, And few Manufacturers were asked about this, don't ask me why I can't imagine http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/forums/topic/7893-led-retrofits-for-neon-fluorescent-lamps-overlooked-facts/ We happened to walk by the ISA Rocks show which was a biggy in Orlando, but seemed really small this year which was held at House of Blues. We didn't get a chance to go nor did we even know it was there on a Thursday night, but it did look low in attendance which bring me to the next part. The attendance on Friday, Saturday, was very VERY low, and surprisingly so. It would be shocking to hear from ISA, if they announce it was otherwise. Just about every exhibitor felt it was low and smaller than normal Vegas traffic. It was similar to Orlando traffic. We spent most of our time at the show meeting with friends and vendors. LEAVING SAN DIEGO LUNCH AT TOM URBANS OF COURSE MEETING WITH LONGTIME INDUSTRY FRIENDS DAVE OF FRANCEFORMER FRIDAY AT ISA KGIRL AT THE ISA BOOTH GRABBING LUNCH AND A DRINKS KGIRL WORKING HARD AT OUR SOCIAL MEDIA She's a hard worker, lol SPENDING SOME TIME WITH JOE @ INTERNATIONAL LIGHTS I was digging Joe's new patent pending border LED lights, very creative! AT THE FRANCEFORMER BOOTH

@southernsigns I did not nor have not. I'm not aware of anyone using these for outdoor applications but because their such a small diameter I imagine based on typical cabinet depths you would need to space them pretty close otherwise a lot of hot spots and you're limited to use based on their length.

Thanks again everyone. @Mad Scientist A. Yep, Yep, Yep, one day maybe we we should combine a few minds and write a long detailed book for the industry and consumers. Something that's always been on my mind. Aimed more for the consumers & large retailers, because their the ones getting all the incorrect information by the ill advised/educated in our industry B. Starting to see that more. Everyone's looking to put their hand out so they can get "their$" Not seeing it here in my neck of the woods. On a side note. This article made 600+ reads in less than 48 hours. A lot of reads were by large retailers who read/follow this site often.

Hopefully you'll post those pics when you're done, that sounds like a huge undertaking and a LOT of Transformers! I would suggest Franceformers!

Thanks Steve! The idea was to smack them in the face with a 2 x 4, then continually put out some hard info in multi-sub categories at the same time building actual cabinets and testing initial brightness of various light sources, sort of what we have been doing here on the Sign Syndicate for years. Only difference would have been the test wouldn't go for measuring lumen maintenance.

Original article I was asked to rebut The Original 360˙ Image Article - March 2017 Issue 0_image360_mar2017_whitepaper-1.pdf Which reads without Downloading Below, The Official Rebuttal below... Image 360's "A Brighter Idea? - Converting fluorescent or neon signs to energy-efficient LED illumination" ARTICLE COMMENTARY More mis-infomration and mis-characterazation of light sources......so let's do this casually Whether you are a light source user fabricating signs in the electric sign industry or the end user consumer there is a lot to know when it comes to light sources. Mainly, ALL light sources whether it's Neon, Fluorescent, or LED, ALL have their strengths and weaknesses based on the application of your intended project. Not ALL applications are the same, and the environment in which the light sources are in can play a key factor of success or failure. Those of us that have been in the industry for a period have all seen failure of components that never did live up to the hype or the marketing claims on the manner of which the products were pushed either by distributors or by what we read in trade magazines written my manufacturer reps. What this article fails to tell the reader is, well...a lot. It's hard to tell whether it was intentional or regurgitation of marketing points done by others (outsiders), in either case it's damaging to the electric sign industry, and readers should be cautioned. So let's begin by breaking it down so we can separate fact from fiction and do good for the consumer who buys our integrated products used for electrical identification. Ask anyone in this industry who has been around long enough to see trends, and someone who is worth their salt will tell you, magnetic transformers, magnetic ballasts, or magnetic LED power supplies will last significantly longer than solid state versions. Yes, electronics are smaller, you will save over cord and coil, but magnetics are just simple and without electronics their just make up of coils, not a whole lot can go wrong with them. Heat can play a big roll of failure when it comes to electronics because as we all know, electronics and heat don't mix. One of the first claims to roll out of this article is "Energy Efficient"....."energy savings of up to 80%" Nothing unusual about that, we see that in any trade magazine we pick up today and we've all heard the same points from just about any manufacturer rep who might sit your company project managers down and who buys them all lunch (to obligate you to buy from them) while they go on with their presentation. No real big headlines here right? First, let's put aside what we think we know about light sources used in the electric sign industry by what you were told, or what you may have read. This next part is VERY important to remember. When someone says that one light source is more "energy efficient" over another, then the two light sources must have equal light output and THEN one has to work at a lower cost of operation. When the said product can, only then can we truly say a product or light source is more "energy efficient". This is key! 90% of the time we will read these claims in a trade magazine, marketing ad, or by a manufacturer rep trying to sell us something. Only to find if you actually took the LED product that only consumes .4 watts a module, we might see something different if we made our own comparison. So let's do that! We'll use JT LED as a example for our model below for visual purposes only, at 3 modules per foot put into a 2' long channel, 4" wide, 5" deep, a #7328 white acrylic face. We'll use this as our ideal channel letter, because our standard for channel letters is, anything over 4" would require a second stroke of material, be it Neon or LED. Let's compare it to another channel sitting side by side, which houses a 15mm 6500K neon lamp (we'll use a FMS Neon TC Lamp). The surface light on the Neon side would be overwhelmingly brighter, not much of a fair comparison, but this is what is always compared and the claim is, "LED is brighter, better, etc etc". How would you ever know unless you compared??? These days not many have ever illuminated channel letters with Neon, especially LED reps. LED Channel 121 Surface Foot Candle Average Neon Channel 191 Surface Foot Candle Average The Neon channel is nearly 37% brighter than the LED Let's look at the cost of operation An LED Channel with 3 modules per foot x 2' x .40 watts = 2.4 watts (Electronic) A Neon Channel 15mm 6500K 2' (15mm Hg - 3 watts per foot) x 3w = 6 watts (Magnetic) Using LED modules you will save 60% in cost of operation over the Neon Channel. Something to throw out, we could have used an electronic Neon transformer and saved about 30% but let's keep it extreme for sake of discussion. So to save 60% in energy you must give up almost 40% of light, and depending on what LED you choose, how long would it last? Most of the time you get what you pay more, but NOT always. What would the lumen maintenance be of that LED product in say 3 years, 5 years? What we see in the article is claimed savings, but what they are doing in reality is comparing a pen light to a mag light and telling consumers the pen light is more "Energy efficient" because their using smaller, less power batteries to operate under, leaving out the fact that the Mag Light puts out much more light. Signs like advertising is about Competition right? Light is also competition when a sign is sitting in a strip center or shopping mall. Back To Reality... The fair comparison is to step up the LED Module power to a 1 watt module or .92 watt module for a near equal light output comparison, if we're comparing LEDs to Neon let's redo this with a .92 watt (using a our NC "Reckless" LED module for example). LED Channel 190 Surface Foot Candle Average Neon Channel 191 Surface Foot Candle Average The Neon channel is nearly .005% brighter than the LED, or nil to nothing, let's call them equal for sake of argument. Let's look at the cost of operation again LED Channel with modules 3 modules per foot x 2' x .92 watts = 5.52 watts (Electronic) Neon Channel 15mm 6500K 2' (15mm Hg - 3 watts per foot) x 3w = 6 watts (Magnetic) Again, we won't do it here, BUT we could have saved nearly 30% in energy using a Electronic Neon Transformer which we did not. Using LED modules you will save 8% in cost of operation over the Neon Channel Is one more energy efficient over the other in this comparison....YES! But not my much or as much as claimed. Like most instances you can use the lower wattage LED modules in channel letters or sign cabinets and sign suppliers and mfg reps will tell you, you can use less LEDs to stretch power supplies for "usable light". That is true....and...well and good when you see these models on a show room floor, or at a convention for an "Ooooo and Ahhh". The problem with that lays when you put that same sign out in a strip center or shopping mall and now it has to compete against other signs and light sources. The customer will complain, you will bring that sign back into your shop and that three (.4w) modules, or one module (1w) per foot soon turns into 9 and 3 modules (sometimes tripling material) just so it can compete with conventional light sources already out on the field, the ROI just went up at this point for any kinds of savings in retrofitting or a project sold as "Energy Efficient" Which can bring us to.... "Retrofitting". We as sign makers will make money on retrofitting. It's the new profit farming idea put out from just about every LED manufacturer to motivate YOU to go to your customers or create new accounts with the idea of $$$-SAVING MONEY-$$$. Oh and possible "rebates" energy companies hand out, a handicap subsidy paid for by the taxpayers. Why handicap a product? A whole other topic for another time. I have personally seen the most outrageous "propaganda", and I'm been nice in using that word because that's exactly what it is. It's shameful to know so many in this industry and to see quite a few trying to convince sign shops so much money can be made buying THEIR products and inspire/motivate you to sell consumer on retrofits. Putting on presentations knowing full well Neon does not consume 10 to 12 watts per foot, especially clear red (Neon gas pumped). As licensed Electrical Sign Contractors we must have our business ethics and sense of integrity, and it is not fair to unjustly convince a consumer to retrofit their existing Neon Channel Letter sign over to LED based on magic fuzzy math and figures. We know from our own testing and evaluations which we won't go into here, that Neon & high powered 1-watts LED modules, their light output will degrade over time 30% to 40% over 40,000 hours of operation, or nearly 14 sign years if left on 8 hours a day. One thing to stress, very few high powered LED's make it that long, and in our testing only two products made it that long, GE (Power Tetra MAX) & Axiom's High Powered LED. Lower power LED's i.e .4 watt modules produce less heat, less stress, and under driving we can expect longer life, but more than not, even that's not always the true or the case. A topic for another time. Doing our own calculations without labor we've seen the ROI from 20 to 40 years just for the consumer to make their money back. You have to ask yourself, did you pick the right components to last 20 to 40 years, how many times will you need to re-retrofit the retrofit? Being in this industry we've seen many large sign programs fail and burn with utter disaster, resulting in thousands of locations needing a "re-change" over. If the Environment plays a big key for you into choosing the right light source. Something else omitted from this article....... TEMPERATURES Yes, correct. Standard 30ma Neon systems do not like cold weather and are affected because the mercury (Argon fill) inside condenses up in the cold. BUT, if you're using red Neon lamps, clear with Neon gas and no mercury or even orange (Green pumped red), light output is not affected by temperatures because it's just glass and gas. In most cold regions shops will bump the 30ma system to a 60ma doubling the cost of operation for cold weather purposes for heating up those lamps, or change gas. But these days unfortunately, there aren't that many 60ma Neon Magnetic Transformers still being produced (**Except Franceformer), namely only electronics which can limit jobs in cold weather for exposed argon filled lamps because GTO cannot touch metal surfaces. With cooler temps Neon and Fluorescent lamps will dim, and LEDs will prosper. The Flip side. There's a what? Neon & Fluorescent lamps are brighter in warmer climates, and LEDs dim in warmer weather, LEDs can catastrophically fail in these conditions because just like computers and electronics, they hate heat. Temperatures cannot make Neon lamps catastrophically fail. This is what separates one LED mfg product from another, how is it dissipating heat, can it dissipate the heat? This is for another discussion. It should also be noted, companies like Voltarc make a double insulated T8 Lamp for cold weather, this means the temperature won't affect the light output much. This is why it's important as a sign producer, we must ask ourselves, where is this sign going? Somewhere extreme like Minnesota cold or Arizona heat? Some big banking sign programs that have catastrophically failed have learned from their big failures and have hybrid system in place. Based on sign sizes of geographical location will be specified with Neon or LEDs THE ENVIRONMENT This is nothing other than good fear marketing, and a good way to sell based on guilt and create headlines where there are none. The truth is..... mercury is a natural element, and it's everywhere naturally....Streams, Volcanoes, in the forests and it's released naturally....there is no escape! The mercury in a lamps is it's purist form (quicksilver), and unless you decide to open a vile of mercury and inhale the vapor, the world will still keep on spinning, and children will continue to play out in the streets as far as our industry is concerned with it. Most environmental groups are extreme and work against our industry under an assumption "a rogue Neon bender could simply pour mercury down the drain and poison people". Believe me, I know....I've had these conversations with them and when they see these fake headlines it peaks their interest and it's ammo for their cause and there is a reason why that sentence is in quotes. Neon & Fluorescent Lamps are 100% recyclable. LEDs are not. What??? LEDs have a lot of metal toxic content, something left for another topic. So it's best not to sling mud at one industry when your backyard can be just as messy and controversial. The average home consumer will throw out Hg (Mercury) lamps and think nothing of using a recycling center. As professionals in our industry we dispose of these lamps commercially, we don't just simply toss them in a waste bin somewhere where it will be dumped off next to the puppy farm's drinking water. Which begs the big question about LEDs, what to do with those since they are composed of toxic metals? Landfill??? Most LEDs today are come from China just like about everything else. China has coal plants....not exactly the best clean coal plants to date. What do coal plants put into the atmosphere?.....Mercury. If environmental impact is a large concern to you like it was in the image 360 article, would you rather buy a product that has mercury trapped in glass that gets recycled, that is energy efficient in it's own right, or from another that puts it into the atmosphere? Burn a 1000 watts to build a product that uses 5 watts??? Something to note if the 'Green" movement appeals to you. U.L. or Underwriters Laboratories, and most all know them in our industry if you produce electric signs, UL lists Neon as a "Green" product, and has a Green Product listing. Something we did not see in this article, we only read the words "hazardous". PRODUCT AVAILABILITY Mis-information. The replacement of a single Neon unit or Fluorescent Lamps is much more inexpensive than having to replace failing LED modules. Lets think for minute. We've all seen failures of Neon, Fluorescent and LED signs all around town. You can take just about any 6500K lamps whether it's Neon or Fluorescent and replace it, and match up isn't that bad unless it's had years of lumen maintenance. Those conventional light source component manufacturers have not changed that technology or products much, and you can always expect what you'll get from them. The Hg Lamp industry has a better more solid standard than LEDs at the moment. Those lamps and glass are they same as they were 20 years ago. With LEDs, not so much. As we walk into the next big sign like the upcoming ISA convention we can expect to see the new LED modules by our choice vendor 10.0, next year will be 11.0, 12.0 after that. When a LED fails and even in a short few years, your chances of finding that LED can be next to impossible leaving you with the choice depending on how much failure to replace the whole existing sign. Cross your fingers you're not mixed up into a major sign program and replacing thousands! UNLESS you're the subcontractor who will make the labor on that change out! LEDs are exactly what their touted, technology. Technology always changes. You can walk into any sign supply house and buy a few feet or single lamp for service, with LEDs you must purchase by the Tray or box, sometimes a carton, a much higher cost just for a simple maintenance job. A cost that must be passed off to the consumer, who might not the that happy when sold on 50,000 to 100,000 hours of dependability FLUORESCENT LIGHT SIGN CABINETS & RETROFITTING Sometimes old technology gets better. Most run of the mill Fluorescent HO (High-Output) lamps are inexpensive and their usually a single halo-phosphate lamp. Lamps do improve. Just like Neon and Fluorescent Lamps, their both also available in high light output lamps, or Tri-Phosphor Lamps. Tri-Phosphor lamps are a brighter "whiter" lamps, that last longer, and stay white much longer over time than conventional single halo-phosphate lamps. Companies like Voltarc who specialize in premium light source products have even gone so far as to improve the HO Lamp electrodes for longer life. Voltarc lamps are specified out in many large sign programs and for good reason. Their Tri-phosphor lamps, T-12 & T8's are rated for 60,000 hours of operation, and it goes against the marketing of LED manufacturers that claim HO Lamps will often only last 5,000 hours of operation, need to be changed out often, "buzz and blink" not that they ever did anyway. This brings us to our finale and final project we will share with you the industry. We can all plug away with products we all use to see if Retrofitting Sign Cabinet's to LEDs is truly worth their claim. Don't get me wrong, under the right circumstances it can be! This is a project that we did on The Sign Syndicate a few years back to study Retrofitting and possible ROI (Return on Investment). It's just casual and not concrete, we do leave a few things out that's up to you to insert. RETROFIT PROJECT A customer calls you up and wants to know when they can expect to reach their Return On Investment for possibly retrofitting their T12 Pylon Sign to LEDs as an option, because they always read about energy saving using LEDs, and they have been visited by a rep. You discover the sign specification below after a survey Current Sign Specifications • 24 - T1296F Conventional single halo phosphate Lamps • 4- old 48' Magnetic Ballasts • 48 - Rude looking HO Lamp Sockets that have seen better days You have a couple of choices. Go LED or consider using an improved conventional light source system, HO Lamps and Electronic Ballasts because Magnetic Ballasts are not really being manufactured anymore. An improved Fluorescent HO Lamps system means "energy efficiency" because for the same power you're getting a brighter longer life lamps going from single halo-phosphate to tri-phosphor for the same cost of operation, and you're also saving from going magnetic ballast to electronic ballast. Let's look at a few products to choose from for this quick project/discussion Voltarc 8' - T12 HO Tri Light Max (Tri-Phosphor) Lamps - 6,190 Lumens, 67 Watts Each 8' - T8 HO Tri Light Max (Tri-Phosphor) Lamps - 7,467 Lumens, 74 Watts Each GE (Double Sided) 8' - Line Fit LED- 5,760 Lumens, 57.12 Watts Each Principal LED (Double Sided) 8' - Qwik Stik (Double Sided) 4,316 Lumens, 42.4 Watts Each LIGHT OUTPUT Voltarc T8 - 7,467 Lumens 17% Brighter than a T12 23% Brighter than the GE Line Fit 42% Brighter than the Principal LED Qwik Stik Voltarc T12 - 6,190 Lumens 7% Brighter than the GE Line Fit 30% Brighter than the Principal LED Qwik Stik GE Line Fit - 5,760 Lumens 30% Brighter than the Principal LED Qwik Stik ANNUAL COST OF OPERATION What it costs to run each system annually HO Lamp Proposal 1 - T12 (6,190 Lumens) T12 Lamp Retrofit 24- Tri-Phosphor Lamps, & 4- Electronic Ballasts, 48 HO Sockets 24 Lamps x 67 watts = 1,608 Watts 24 Lamps x 10 Hours a day x 365 Days a Year x $.12 KWH/1050 (Power Correction) = $670.76 Annual Cost of Operation HO Lamp Proposal 2 - T8 (7,467 Lumens) T8 Lamp Retrofit 24-Tri-Phosphor Lamps, & 4- Electronic Ballasts, 48 HO Sockets 24 Lamps x 67 watts = 1,776 Watts 24 Lamps x 10 Hours a day x 365 Days a Year x $.12 KWH/1050 (Power Correction) = $740.84 Annual Cost of Operation GE Line Fit (5,760 Lumens) 24 LED Line Fit Lamps, 8- 180 Watt LED Power Supplies, 24 Rails, 48 End Caps, 48 Sockets 24 Lamps x 54.2 Watts = 1,300.80 Watts 24 Lamps x 10 Hours a day x 365 Days a Year x $.12 KWH/1050 (Power Correction) = $542.62 Annual Cost of Operation Principal LED Qwik Stik (4,316 Lumens) 24 Qwik Stik LED Lamps, 12- 120 Watt LED Power Supplies or 6 - 264 Watt LED Power Supplies 24 Lamps x 54.2 Watts = 1,017.60 Watts 24 Lamps x 10 Hours a day x 365 Days a Year x $.12 KWH/1050 (Power Correction) = $424.48 Annual Cost of Operation COMPONENT COSTS Fluorescent Lamp Retrofit Voltarc TriLightMax T8 Lamp $22.10 Each x 24 = $530.40 (7,467 Lumens) Voltarc TriLightMax T12 Lamp $25.54 Each = $612.96 (6,190 Lumens) 48' Ballast $69.00 Each x 4 = $276.00 HO Lamp Socket $1.19 Each x 48 = $57.12 T12 Tri-Phosphor Lamp Retrofit total cost of components $946.08 (6,190 Lumens) T8 Tri-Phosphor Lamp Retrofit total cost of components $863.52 (7,467 Lumens) LED Retrofit GE Line Fit 8' Lamp $180.00 Each x 24 = $4,320.00 180w GE Power Supply $97.14 Each x 8 = $777.12 8' Rails Each x 24 = End Caps Each x 48 = Total Cost of Components = $5,097.12 (5,760 Lumens) Principal Qwik Stik 8' Lamps $89.99 Each x 24 = $2,159.76 6 Principal LED 264w Power Supply $157.65 Each x 6 = $945.90 Total Cost of Components = $3,105.66 (4,316 Lumens) RETURN ON INVESTMENT This is a calculation of annual energy cost saving vs upfront initial cost investment. GE Line Fit (23% Dimmer than the Voltarc T8) (7% Dimmer than the Voltarc T12) How long would it take for a Retrofit package using a GE Line Fit System to break even using the initial annual energy consumption savings versus the initial cost, and how many years would it take to make that back? Initial Cost $5,097.12 / Savings using Fit Line over T12 = $128.14 Annually= 39.77 Years (145,160 Hours) Initial Cost $5,097.12 / Savings using Fit Line over T8 = $198.22 Annually= 25.71 Years (93,841 Hours) Principal LED Qwik Stik (42% Dimmer than the Voltarc T8) (30% Dimmer than the Voltarc T12) How long would it take for a Retrofit package using a Principal LED Qwik Stik System to break even using the initial annual energy consumption savings versus the initial cost, and how many years would it take to make that back? Initial Cost $3,105.66 / Savings using Fit Line over T12 = $246.28 Annually= 12.61 Years (47,121 Hours) Initial Cost $3,105.66 / Savings using Fit Line over T8 = $316.36 Annually= 9.82 Years (35,843 Hours) In most cases when it comes to retrofitting, it won't make business sense to spend the upfront cost. For this project the sign shop can spend less than $1,000.00 in material and simply swap out old sockets, add new long life lamps rated for 60,000 hours and ballasts. What we did not add in is labor, and small component parts needed for the LED systems, this will bump those figures up because with an HO System you're replacing four ballasts, with the LED systems you're adding in more, in some cases 6 to 8 power supplies. This is just a generous / casual comparison and calculation and factors you can add in for yourself CLOSING I know that it may appear as if I'm hammering LEDs, or am bias in some way. I am not. I am merely only filling in the holes created by Marketeers, low information manufacturer reps who probably have never touched, let alone ever measured a Neon Lamp, and also from sign suppliers who only pass on what they are told to tell you from upstairs coupled with Sign trade magazines who's only purpose is to fill headlines and create content with exciting claims/headlines. Truth be told, I am a user and seller of all three light sources. My goal in this trade is quality and longevity, and I've always been VERY picky with what I use because I practice what I preach and put my own money where my mouth is with 5 year worry free electrical warranties to my own customers In closing I will say again.....ALL Light sources have their pro's and con's, strengths & weaknesses all according to a number of factors and applications we NEVER hear about. Not all sign shops have access to good Neon benders and processors for electric signs. Not all sign shops have the "know how" to install or integrate Neon properly, so the LED alternative is attractive. For the sign shops who do know how to handle Neon there is no reason why sign shops who do, cannot give at the very least a 5 year worry free electrical warranty to the consumer. LED's are also very attractive for signs that are produced and shipped. Small channel letters that can be packed up and shipped via FedEx, or UPS without the worry of glass breaking. 5' glass sticks are not always easy to ship in case of breakage and not everyone has access to a Neon Bender to make those needed repairs from travel. When it comes to difficult installations & maintenance access it's much easier to used LED's over Neon at times. But again, a good properly process neon lamp can last 20 years, even longer for Neon filled which is just glass and gas. I myself have some channel letters out on the field that have never had a call going on 20+ years For Neon you also need a certain clearance to work with and keep space clear, and why for smaller Channel Letter jobs, once again....LEDs are a better choice light source! When it comes to red channel letters it should be noted. 15mm Clear Neon red is 3.6 watts per foot, red LED modules are usually .48 watts a module and space 3 per foot for 1.5 watts per foot. Behind your standard #2283 Red acrylic there is very little difference in surface light, one does not appear to be brighter than the other. So you do see significant savings using LEDs, and it's over 50% in cost of operation BUT....the flip side is.......red clear Neon lamps do not degrade in light output (just glass and gas) whereas red LEDs do. There is a price to be paid for the 50% savings in cost of operation. (Pro's and Con's) This industry will always have failures from light sources, sometimes it's inferior products, a lot of times their just not installed right due to not enough "know how" or by hackery. Poor installation and in house fabrication/integration will affect all light sources with quicker breakdown. The biggest part that kills our industry and rots our trade from the inside out is the wrongful intention of marketing mis-information & mis-characterization of ALL light sources we use in our industry. Neon & Fluorescent lamp manufacturers have paid the biggest price from this in the last decade and it's any wonder their still around. Like all trends and cycles, things go away and have a way of coming back again. Neon is slowly making a comeback, not by the demand of sign shops, but by the consumers themselves who want back that unique look only Neon can offer. It will be a task for most shops if they can fill that demand which is now a premium project, or will they have to pass it on to someone else who possess that knowledge because they choose the easier path of peel and stick? - Erik Gastelum Administrator of The Sign Syndicate Former Technology Leadership Team of The United States Sign Council

THE BACKGROUND So, as I mentioned in this thread I left the USSC I was given this newsletter from Image 360˙. From my understanding this is a newsletter for sign franchises and others such as Signs By Tomorrow. This is your typical marketing point newsletter describing how greatly valued one light sources is (LEDs) compared to "inefficient" Neon & Fluorescent lamps. If you've been in this electric sign trade long enough you'll know that this is your typical mis-information marketing hype, brochure talking points, something we all read in our Brochure Trade Magazines, or are taught at Trade Show Seminars that does nothing other than mis-characterizes LEDs, Neon, & Fluorescent Lamps to something they are not. I was asked to rebut this article and hit it hard. I did. It was soon met with apprehension by email which lead to conference call by committee. We all know what happens, and how a decision by committee can go, as Sign Fabricators imagine yourself looking to get approval from a city design review board. Everyone has an opinion, and soon it takes a tangent like, "Let's get the owner to add some green trees to the property too". The feedback was both praise and deflection. Some thought we should waste time in developing a relationship with image 360 "to better educate them", find some other way to combat this. The thought of hurting those who are new to the trade, by franchise or otherwise came up. It would appear as if USSC was picking a side, or picking the side of electric sign shops over mom and pop shops/franchise shops that are looking into doing electric signs. Then I had to remind the board that in most states you need to be a licensed contractor to fabricate & install electric signs and you can not just simply buy your way in to a trade. Is the electric sign industry still a trade, or is it not? I went into the fact that no other Association has ever protected, let alone rebut the typical marketing points that we all see on a everyday basis THAT we all know is wrong, and that it would take courage to do so. I've been preaching the need to have courage to this association for some time along with the need to do what is right and NOT continue to always do only what is easy I also reminded them that I am here with them to build an Association (by membership), and that I was NOT here to build a annual show. The Electric Sign Trade has been looking for some kind of leadership and representation for as long as I have been around and no one has EVER been around to do that. USSC could have been the first to fill what this Trade, and members here have been thirsty for.....Real "Leadership" The topic got batted around back and forth and it appeared to go south, then I asked "where is the courage of this sign association?" and "What have you done on this very topic in the last 12 years?" Then, BOOM!!! I'm getting threatened with "The next time I see you I'm going to kick your ass!". I'm short tempered and can flip on a dime, anytime, anywhere, so......immediately I'm following up with "I'm going to kick your ass when I see you!" followed by your mutual back and forth "Fuck you's, etc etc etc" It got very High School, VERY fast. Not your typical Sign Association Board conference call I'm sure. BUT.....you can't accuse the USSC of NOT being passionate about the sign industry! I'm not going to go into greater detail, or name names. It's details the Association can deal with, it's inner family stuff. I thought things could finally change for once when it comes to sign associations, I'm not surprised, but I'm defiantly disappointed. I was hoping the "movement" would finally gain ground beginning with the USSC. There are things I've mentioned in the past about Sign Associations, and nothing has changed. It has to do with long time Board Members who float around either in the same association, or are concurrently in multiple at the same time. After awhile long term relationships are built, ego's are developed, and the need to protect one's legacy evolves. New people appear to threaten what some perceive as their territory. It's just like our everyday politicians, they all start off with good intentions then sooner or later their hurting more than doing good. A lot of newbies or quite types who join associations don't like to speak up, or engage what might be thought of as ruffling feathers or rubbing shoulders with those that have been in for some time. This is the biggest reason why I never saw myself ever in a association, I like to act and execute, and "fuck 'em" if they don't have a sense of humor . Look, I'm no different and I'm not going to paint myself as someone any different that can get used to my own ways . BUT, I know there will come a day where it's just better for me to walk away from here, and not get in the way of others who could carry on and do a better job. I hope I will know when that time comes myself, or at least hope someone will just tell me, "Erik, dude it's time to go, shut up and stop". That time is not yet, because this industry has been losing, very badly I might add. I told them I would continue to get this article out with them, or go it alone...which I have never had an issue with I think I was born this way. Obviously, it became the latter. Their loss, and the loss for their members who have any care about the state of the electric sign "Trade" The omission to speak out, or failing to do what's right for our industry in hopes of staying neutral, makes those just as bad as the party making the accusations who's spreading the mis-information and mis-characterizations. So...what was to be executed by USSC by means of newsletters, social media blasts, and PR Web, and possible trade magazine article is below...

Not only the bulb itself, but I sure hope that's a women taking apart that bulb

C'mon guys, have some faith. I check my email every 10 minutes and even have my calls forwarded to my cell phone. It's the moral thing to do, responding to an email to one of your fellow tradesman or women. I mean....that is why they put their email address in their article right? Laura Peters being an LED consultant, might even possibly need to set me straight should my facts be twisted, and need some slapping around even. Keep the faith guys!

Hi Brian, I Never have. I tried at one point a couple of years ago but they were hard to obtain and the mfg never wanted to give larger samples which we needed. They seemed to be more regional at the time and from my understanding early on they were NC LED's which we sell, but they went their own way. Do you who's diodes they use? That's a good question to ask and always an ask they should have no problem answering without hesitation. There are legal reason behind that as well. If you have some and a few 2' strings by all means I'll put them in. One of the reasons what I shy'd away was, every ISA convention they seemed to have something different every time, so what was there that year was gone the next. But again, this was years ago and maybe things changed. Being on the west coast they seemed to be more east coast.

I never did get a response from Laura Peters on this

My old school report card use to often say "Does not play well with others" Keep given 'em hell Adam. You will "do it"....if not there, some place else! All the best Amigo!

See, as a long time participant, and as someone who's been/gone there for a number of years you know exactly what how it's been. I truly was the elephant. Some thought I was refreshing from the old stale bunch, some didn't like me because either I wasn't their typical follower because I was engaging, or I was a threat to thier business as usual and didn't like what i was pointing out. Some of the real good people just sort of stand in the shadows and are too afraid to make waves. Since I got there, I never considered myself a part of them, apart of the USSC, they had to earn that. I considered myself more of an outsider, or observer. I didn't go out to join them, they asked me. But, I needed to have a VERY good reason to help in promoting them and supporting them. I didn't see that. It came VERY close, don't get me wrong. They have more in place that would make them the better Association over all others. Bu,t the slate must be cleaned and purged in order for that to happen. New blood in, old blood out. Some have been there so long, they don't see what I as an outsider, what you see, they only see what's straight in front of them and in some ways it's their way of life and Ego plays a HUGE role. Ego will kill anything in the long term. It's too bad, their so close to being a great Association, but their priorities are VERY out of order. They have the right man as a President this year who has bigger/larger purpose in wanting the USSC to do good, a new person or (New Blood) but unfortunately he's a threat to them AND, their tying his hands in doing what needs to be done. He has more enemies than he realizes there, probably more so than I, LoL ......The Slate should have been cleaned prior to a new year.

People wanted an update about how things were going with my time spent at the USSC, or United States Sign Council. Well....I had to step away. I'll get into the good, the bad, and the ugly this week. I'll be releasing a full article this week, and it's the main reason why I stepped away. I was asked to write it, it was thought to be too controversial. Some wanted it, some did not have the courage to follow through and get it out. I can't waste my time and sit on something of value and wait for individuals who are worrying about who might get offended, and be wary of sensitivity. I lost patience, and faith that anything would happen with the USSC when it comes to the core values & principals that the electric sign industry holds at heart. I can't as a person who puts an industry first before making a buck, especially being in a position of industry leadership to stand by and do nothing. That's not leading, nor doing what needs to be done, that's being careful, and leading from behind. Most will get a kick out of, and enjoy the article.

I Remember discussing that job you had a number of years ago and too bad. I told you, YOU should have posted it here instead, or did you finally? I have to give James Cross credit. That was ballsy posting those pics and I admire him for doing so. That's just so.."Sign Syndicate" My admiration has nothing to do with the fact that he posted pictorial evidence like I do all so commonly by the way...I should have you know. It may have been an advertisement but as a Board Vendor he's free to engage and discuss his own products wherever he wants, and the members are more than welcome to engage him back, as they did. But, I'll always allow discussion here on products that work, whether their a Board Vendor or not, even whether it compete with me, by what I sell here or not. I like Quality and that's what I strive to get out here. I discuss a lot of products and services of companies/individuals who aren't even paid Vendors here because the quality of our trade and preservation of our valued long time traditions and heritage will always supersede making a buck for me. It just happened too that Adam's Channel Letter Machines are awesome, they truly are. I don't say that because they advertise here, I say that because I've seen them work first hand and in person. Posts and threads don't always work out that way for paid Vendors An example is a Vendor we had Olympia LED, he made his pitch and members engaged him back. It didn't work out for him and that's just how it goes here on the SS. I wasn't going to favor or handicap what he was selling, it had to stand on it's own merit or it didn't. I get slack at times from both sides and all I can do is let products and individuals stand/speak on their own merit, it's fair for the industry, it's fair to the readers and potential consumers. yes, I can lose out a lot of times as I have so many times in the past, but it's a cost/realationship I'm willing to eat because getting out the truth, and quality are just more important to me

Sign Industry Fake News Fake News has become a recent term that came about our country's recent election BUT, the term has well defined our industry for some time I've been asleep and was pretty much dormant for some time writing about the writers of our industry, the self claimed "Trade Magazines", or as most of us well seasoned tradesman and women like to call them, the "Trade Rags, Brochure Rags, Brochure Magazines". I took a brief leave because one of the worst magazines in our industry did a complete 180˙ from bad to good, Signs of The Times started doing a better job of balanced industry information. I coined the editors name of Wade to "Community Organizer" because for a period of time it became all about the broad positions he held and surrounded himself with, ISA, the Foundation, his Advertisers, and being Media. I took that title away after SOT turned for the better, and Brochure Magazines like Sign Builder Illustrator, & Signs & Digital Graphics continued to decline. Once I heard Wade was leaving and another took his position, I had a feeling it was only a matter of time where I would once again be writing about, the writers. I didn't get to coin the new name of SOT, another did and it's well fitting, "The Community Agitator". That is because she has strong core political convictions that divide everyday American's, and that spilled into the Magazine one month and after so many complaints she choose NOT to address it or support her position. SOT today, we can officially say has slowly started to decline once again. This is all okay. It's okay because as you might already know, their not highly read anymore as they once were, and one day they will go the way of the Penny Saver, here today, gone tomorrow. You don't have to take my word on this, just look at any of the three and you'll see that they have become more and more thin over time, it's like they went on a crash diet from paper. Sign Builder at one time was the better of the three, and SDG has always been consistent, consistent as being known as the lowest of the low. Sign & Digital Graphics is the only one to this day tied to Convention Shows, so it might be the reason why they position themselves to be more promotional than actual informational though....that seems to be changing, maybe more on that later If there is one Magazine above all others that wears the badge name of "Fake News" it's Sign & Digital Graphics. In fact, I don't even know why they bother to have an editor. There should just be a online shopping cart that had a Bonus Button that can be added with purchase "with annual purchase of full page ads, submit your free marketing material here". I don't read Sign & Digital Graphics that much but I noticed a peculiar article the other day posted on LinkedIn called LED Insights. Having some background knowledge it peaked my interest. SDG LED Insights is written by Bryan Vincent, also co-owner of Principal LED, who also owns Ventex, Ventex is a consolidation of both Ventex & Transco. Ventex and Transco are known for their Neon Products, Ventex primarily for their SST Neon Transformers. For a period of time Ventex tried to promote and sell a proprietary class I LED system that had has had some very bad power supply issues. We had a number of them fail on our own in house testing that Ventex supplied us for their products. Needless to day, Ventex tried harder at one point to push their LEDs over their customer/following preferred long time legacy Neon Components by pushing Retrofitting of LED VenBrites. They still might continue that marketing today, I just haven't kept up. Ventex who once was a champion of Neon tuned bad guy over night with their CEO (John Boyd) putting on seminars that Neon 15/30 Transformers loading 15mm Red consume 510 watts. He was one of the early helpers in our Sign Syndicate's Great White Hope Project Test. He knows full well they do not. He conveniently left out the power factor of that transformer to push the ROI and appearance of their LEDs much better. A 15/30 max load are also 3.75 watts (name plate value). 3.75a x 120v x .57 (NPF) = 256.5w Also, no one loads these to max usually 80%, or 205 watts So to learn of this was very disappointing, and it said to me ..."desperate" So....Fake News, and SDG "LED Insights", which should really be called Principal LED insights...HELL, the SDG should just be called "Principal LED Sign & Digital Graphics". I haven't picked up an issue in some time but all electric sign marketing says Principal LED whether it's photo's used for another rep, ERRRRrrrr.....writer, and Ventex, with a throw in of "Bitro" once in a while, still trying to figure out that relationship. Back to the 2014 article that popped up on LinkedIn the other day, the LED insights for January 2014 just circles the companies co-partners, and when it came to quoting it was only the close related, sure some other companies were named but let's look at the primaries who played a big part in the article who were the story passing off marketing claims as if they were fact and going to different sources, which in fact they were all coming from only one source in reality. This is probably before the Principal officially owned Ventex, but obviously their sites were already set on the acquisition . No proof but it's my opinion, a little research would be required but it's a safe bet to assume. Who can take the never ending loop of Principal LED in S&DG seriously, and in "matter of fact"? Just this month, we have their "The Life of the Lighted Sign" by "freelance" Ryan Fugler, pictures in bold print "Image courtesy of Principal LED". I mean, how kind of them to donate their pics to be promoted once again in the Principal LED magazine??? Out of 11 photo's 5 are Principal's, the rest are Bitro....again. The dynamic Duo. No matter what happens in the brochure magazine you just can't escape the two companies or quotes by either of them. It's any wonder that any LED company actually exists in the sign industry other than these two in the S&DG World. Just like EVERY Marketing article that this brochure Magazine pimps out, there is one thing they ALL have in common and that is that there are NO real numbers are ever put out, only vague marketing points. Whether it's Pro's and Con's of all light sources discussed, Light Output, or Cost of Operation, those are facts and numbers they will NEVER put out, because they can't....THAT would defer YOU as the reader and question the entire article because once you have a standard or relationship of the light sources the rest is easy to figure out They depend on the ignorance of the reader, the editor (maybe, or not, maybe it's a nice chunk of change to turn the other way or ask questions), and customer base is clearly built on "if you say it enough times, it's believable....and if it's in print, it MUST be true! Principal & Bitro must be the best thing out in the market because that's all you read about in Sign & Digital Graphics

All I can say is, "LUCKY" Elmore Pharmacy sign comes down after cable breaks REDBLUFF DAILY NEWS http://www.redbluffdailynews.com/general-news/20170330/elmore-pharmacy-sign-comes-down-after-cable-breaks A portion of Walnut Street between Washington and Jefferson streets was temporarily closed Thursday to allow McHale Sign Co. employees to rescue an iconic sign that has hung over Elmore Pharmacy for many years. Employees heard a loud crash and came outside to see the sign hanging by one cable and the awning damaged, said owner Bianca Bradford. “The awning is busted, but there was no one under it when the sign fell,” Bradshaw said. “That’s the important part. That everyone is okay.” Bradford said she is hoping to see the sign reattached as soon as possible. While she did not know exactly how old the sign is, the neon part of the pharmacy sign has not worked for at least 25 years. Elmore has been in the building at 401 Washington St. since 1906 and is the oldest operating pharmacy in California, having been in existence since 1861, Bradshaw said. The company first became established in the city of Tehama and then moved around to a few locations before landing at the current one. Red Bluff police and fire departments responded about 3:30 p.m. Thursday to assist with traffic control until the sign company could respond from Redding. No injuries were reported, said Red Bluff Fire Chief Ray Barber.

I often wondered how long it would take our Industry Trade Magazine to turn back to it's old ways and lately I'm starting to see signs of it. Wade who I once called the "Community Organizer" turned his ship around 180˙ for the better, then left his Captain's hat to another. The signs were there, and soon we gave her, her new name, the "Community Agitator" Now comes '60s Revival A 1962 airport sign is recrafted in identical letters with brighter LED lighting By Laura Peters Can be read here http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/STMG/sott_201703/index.php#/34 I'm still trying to understand the Premise of the article or story that is trying to be relayed because for those of us in the electric sign industry apples and oranges are being compared and then Neon once again is being flamed on an unfounded basis. I get the brutal weather in New York and a roof sign does get hit hard, bu why not Re-Engineer and improve it, cover it with Clear Poly-Carbonate? Anyway, I wrote a letter to Laura with a few questions about the articles Mis-Characterization of both Neon & LEDs Hope to get a response, we'll see what happens. Stay Tune!

Just one of those day here in SoCal Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can't be serious right??? I mean.....you do know what fly's out of my mouth on here right, and how I about....???

I have to chuckle, and I have to note that today, we've had a lot of angry members unsubscribe today from newsletters because of this thread. I've received everything from: "FUCK YOU" to.... "As a woman, I don't want to be ridiculed. Just because you don't experience sexism in your life doesn't mean that others have that experience. I wish you had shown kindness and compassion for others less fortunate..." Lot's of emotion out there.

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