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Erik Sine

Neon Banned In Vermont

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I was curious if any neon shops here that might reside in the states like Vermont that now enforce the labeling of merc filled products as of Jan 1st, are going. How are your labels made and does each channel letter on the outside have to be labeled? I know that the label requirements are spelled out, and also have to show how to properly dispose of the product.

Just curious

VERMONT BANS MERCURY-ADDED, NEON TUBES

On January 1, 2007, the Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation

(VDEC) imposed a ban on the sale of various products that incorporate mercury. This

ban includes neon signs and tubes that contain mercury. Sign manufacturers and neon

shops may file the necessary compliance forms individually or collectively (sign

associations are eligible to file on behalf of their members). Please note the filing

requirements as follows:

1) Labeling requirement: Products that incorporate mercury must be properly

labeled. Download the necessary form: www.mercvt.org/label/forms.htm.

2) Notification requirement: Producers of mercury-added neon tubes must submit

formal notification to the Interstate Mercury Education and Reduction

Clearinghouse (IMERC). Download the necessary form:

www.newmoa.org/prevention/mercury/imerc/notificationforms.cfm

3) Exemption: Using the process described below, producers may apply for

exemptions to this ban. But this does not relieve a producer of the obligation to

comply with labeling and notification requirements.

Exemption process:

*Applications for exemptions should be submitted as an original to the Vermont

Department of Environmental Conservation and a copy should be sent to IMERC.

*A manufacturer, manufacturer's agent, or an agent (who may be a user of a product)

may apply for an exemption.

*The exemption will be processed through a multi-state review conducted by

IMERC.

*Vermont will advise the manufacturer of either approval or denial of the request.

*The application for the exemption may be obtained on the IMERC webpage at:

www.newmoa.org/prevention/mercury/imerc/phaseoutforms.cfm

*Deadline for submitting applications for exemption is March 1, 2006; however,

Vermont will be accepting applications submitted (and must be approved) prior to

January 1, 2007.

*If a manufacturer has not applied for an exemption through the IMERC process and

has not received exemption approval prior to January 1, 2007, the mercury-added

products are banned from sale in the State of Vermont after January 1, 2007.

*If a manufacturer or their agent has already received approval from another state on

any exemption request that has handled through the IMERC exemption review

process, a copy of the approval documentation from another IMERC member state

should be forwarded to the Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation

with a request that this information also be considered for an exemption in

Vermont. Upon receipt, this exemption request will be reviewed and approval will

be considered in Vermont for the same duration. The Department will send a letter

to the manufacturer to advise if the request has been approved for the same

duration, or denied.

Page 2

*Note: The ban on sales of mercury-added products is effective January 1, 2007, but

producers may apply for exemptions after this date.

Requirements for other states: Labeling and notification requirements currently exist in

other states that do not currently ban the sale of neon signs and tubes. For information,

see: www.newmoa.org/prevention/mercury/imerc/plnotification.cfm

Information: VDEC Website (www.mercvt.org)

IMERC Website (www.newmoa.org/prevention/mercury/imerc.cfm)

Questions: Contact Karen Knaebel at VDEC: (802) 241-3455 or

Karen.Knaebel@state.vt.us

Edited by Westcoast Sign Guy
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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I don't even know if you can get an exemption. I just got off the phone with a contact on the matter but waiting from a call back from the Waste MGMT Director errrr, Environmental Services Dept of Vermont. This Women of whom I just talked to was erratic about the use of Mercury and quality control. She cringed at the fact that garage shops have merc in viles and use a syringe or applicator to apply or insert merc in their neon tubes. I asked her what about Fluorescent, and she said "Their a major company who uses machinery to put in exact amounts of merc, the guys who are in their garage do not care how much they put it...it's cheap, they don't :filleloupgarou: care whether it's 50mg's or 5000mg what ever the case maybe" She has the impression that neon benders or majority don't care what the process is and almost appears to give me the impression that she thinks neon guys are gonna dump their toxins into their kitchen sinks....where they dump everything else from their meth lab :crazy:

"There is no control of what amounts these guys use, we have no way of knowing!" She jsut kept going on and on, I couldn't even put a word in. :blah1: Hopefully the head tree hugger tribewomen :soopa: errrrr, Director can give me some more light on the matter

:blink:

You neon guys are just a bunch of cowboy, bastards! :cowboy:


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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You neon guys are just a bunch of cowboys, bastards! :cowboy:

Well thank you. I'll take that as a compliment :neon:

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Well thank you. I'll take that as a compliment :neon:

Someone has to keep the treehuggers on thier toes. There's probably more mercury in the rain that falls on thier head. Or in the fish that they eat.

As I say " Go w/ the glow"


GOOD things happen for a reason......

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UPDATE

I am shocked at this decision. But it appears after talking with the Director that it was a very uneducated decision. Their reasons were such, Mercury is a bad element in regards to exposure and disposal.

I asked if Fluorescent bulbs were also banned and she replied "no" I then asked if she was aware that Fluorescent and Neon (Argon pumped tubes) had very similar amounts of mercury inserted in as a catalyst and she again replied "no".

I then told here that there is obviously more fluorescent tubes on the market in both commercial and residential and that the normal process of disposal is 99% most likely the trash can, usually broken first to fit in a can adding exposing of mercury to the elements. Neon units contained with mercury handled by a sign professional has a higher rate of proper handling and disposal when servicing. Her reply was "We are looking for more effecient alternatives for lighting like for example LED's. I wasn't about to tell her that those (LED's) contain arsenic, as she added she didn't want to get into a debate.

She also added that very few to none ever applied for an exemption or tried to fight a proposal before passing.

I am shocked, but don't feel to sorry if no one was their to fight the decision

P.S. I wish I would have even got into the length of life a Fluor (1-2 years) tube has vs. Neon (15-20) on disposal rate


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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Read that form. I interpret it as you need to apply for exemption in order to continue, but the Director tells me it only applies to repair jobs and not produce anything new.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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The bottom line is that we can not sell new mercury based neon tubes to anyone in the state of Vermont based on their legislation. They are however, allowing repairs to exisiting signage.

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After reading that letter in the I-neon mails

After hearing about the neon ban in Vermont, I emailed Richard Crawford who is the USSC legislative consultant. His response follows. I would suggest that you all contact him with your thoughts or questions.

Brent

----- Original Message -----

From: richard c

To: Brent G

Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 4:57 PM

Subject: Re: mercury regulations

Brent -

My apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I was out of the office most of yesterday and today.

The short answer to the Mercury/neon question is that only Vermont has implemented a ban. The time period for an exemption in Vermont has passed; you may still be able to try for one if you wish.

Other states, includng NY, have not "banned" neon that uses Mercury, yet.

This is a topic that requires monitoring; USSC will do its best to assist members with questions about any new laws; we encourage neon fabricators and product manufacturers to do the same,and to keep a close eye on new legislation. They will have to take the lead.

If other states begin to take a look at mercury in neon, you are right, the logical thing will be to have a regulatory and disposal system in place, not a ban.

So, it appears to be only Vermont right now (based on our last reading of the information). If and when an "exemption" is needed in any state, my guess is that a manufacturer has to apply individually (USSC cannot apply, for instance). Question: whether a group of manufacturers could apply together and share cost etc.

Rick Crawford

USSC Legislative Consultant

215-345-1481 voice or fax

----- Original Message -----

From: Brent G

To: rcme

Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:05 PM

Subject: mercury regulations

Mr. Mercer

I am a one person neon shop in Western NY. Can you give me a quick rundown on what I would need to comply with the new regulations? How long do I have and what would associated costs are involved? Are these regulations continuing to evolve and if I comply today might I not comply tomorrow?

Are there efforts being made to make recovery of used mercury in devices such as neon available instead of just banning it outright?

Thank you for any information.

Brent Gt

It makes the associations appear as if they have done nothing. Since 2003 and this is the first I've heard of this. ISA CSA USSC, this is news to me.

But make no mistake this is a glance threw the telescope of what is coming your way. All these tree hugging hippies who believe man is making or creating global warming will start to shrink our freedoms. The green issue is a hot topic where ever we look or listen too.

How much defense will the associations truly be on the neon aspect of the industry. Industry Trade magazines, Assocaitions, money being traded for advertising, influence as LED's have the bigger money behind them. How will the inner politics of these associations play out with struggles of LED's vs. NEON? I can't see a LED company actually trying to help it's competitor now can we?

with IMERC out being the puppet master pulling the string of five other states, how long will it be until more states begin to cross over?

I say a dedicated neon association is in order, one that can build within other associations. One with strong interests in neon alone. I can't see other associations putting in too much effort with their own politics.

An uphill battle against individuals who make very uneducated decisions about their states guidlines that affect everyone in the industry who does business with their state. It's cry wolf!

Next states that IMERC ( http://imerc.org )/ NEWMOA (North East Waste MGMT Officials Assoc ( http://www.newmoa.org ) has in the works for total ban

Connecticut

Maine (More wooden signs!)

Mass

New Jersey (Watch out Fishing Nut!)

NY (Watch out Joe!)

Rhode Island

Vermont (insert check here)


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I still think calling it something else (other than neon) and SAYING it is something else may at least buy some time and perhaps force them to re-write the books, which may buy more time.

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What jumps out at me is that they will allow repairs, but not new products. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't doing mercury repairs have the potential of putting MORE mercury in to the environment than making new mercury units? What am I missing here...

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On a lighter note COON (Concerned Owners Of Neons), since they noticed the word 'neon' in the Vermont law and, naturally, assumed that the law was banning their beloved tinker toy, have gone to court to have a judge affirm their right to make terrible decisions. They have vowed to take their case all the way to the Supreme Court, if necessary. We may yet get this law overturned.


joemomma

I do it in the transformer box.

1946-2008

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I read this and the neon list posts-----and want to cry a bit. Maybe 10 years ago, the INA (International Neon Association) was founded, and it lasted less time than it took to make it. We had our debut at a Vegas show----------I had about 500 INA caps made up, we had all kinds of folks interested in what we were, and who we were, and lots of interest. But, alas, alot of the interest was if someone else was doing the work. We had some great, great folks from the neon industry that were interested in becoming a formidable voice amongst and between the ISA's, et al. We had support from the various mfg and suppliers that had the same interests as us-------protecting neon from hackers, and from the gvt hackers. Trouble was, toooo many needless bickerings about nothing by some folks that thought they knew it all and wouldn't listed to others that knew more. Sound like our industry??? We thought we could be the one component that had the intrested of neon, and had the information and knowledge to protect the industry-------it died. Both the INA, and slowly the industry. Somewhere------I've got the original artwork from the INA. Somewhere in Florida, Jack has all the legal entity stuff from the INA. And somehwere amongst the postings of the neon-l lies the shit that condemned it.

gn

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Nothing like watching someone pull their gun out only to watch that person clumsily shoot themselves in the foot.

I feel like I'm watching a very bad episode of Brave Heart, the damn Clansmen won't unite. You neon guys better get behind something or someone.


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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I read this and the neon list posts-----and want to cry a bit. Maybe 10 years ago, the INA (International Neon Association) was founded, and it lasted less time than it took to make it. We had our debut at a Vegas show----------I had about 500 INA caps made up, we had all kinds of folks interested in what we were, and who we were, and lots of interest. But, alas, alot of the interest was if someone else was doing the work. We had some great, great folks from the neon industry that were interested in becoming a formidable voice amongst and between the ISA's, et al. We had support from the various mfg and suppliers that had the same interests as us-------protecting neon from hackers, and from the gvt hackers. Trouble was, toooo many needless bickerings about nothing by some folks that thought they knew it all and wouldn't listed to others that knew more. Sound like our industry??? We thought we could be the one component that had the intrested of neon, and had the information and knowledge to protect the industry-------it died. Both the INA, and slowly the industry. Somewhere------I've got the original artwork from the INA. Somewhere in Florida, Jack has all the legal entity stuff from the INA. And somehwere amongst the postings of the neon-l lies the shit that condemned it.

gn

I wish there was an argument here, but there isn’t. At the time, I was approached briefly to join the INA, but never followed up on or (as a manufacture) pursued to join. Looking back on it from what I know now, those facts rather surprise me considering the amount of effort that I have heard (from more than one source) was put into establishing the organization.

Nothing like watching someone pull their gun out only to watch that person clumsily shoot themselves in the foot.

I feel like I'm watching a very bad episode of Brave Heart, the damn Clansmen won't unite. You neon guys better get behind something or someone.

Unfortunately, no argument here either… and I couldn't agree more!

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I happened to browse the ISA webby and came across this

ISA Helps in Effort to Overturn Electronic Sign Ban in Concord, N.H.

The International Sign Association has helped cover legal fees incurred by Carlson's Chrysler and Naser Jewelers in their lawsuit against the city of Concord, N.H., over the recent banning of electronic signs. Until recently, such signs were allowed as long as displays were limited to time, temperature, and date so as to minimize distractions for drivers. But a judge's ruling that the ordinance violated the First Amendment by limiting speech prompted the city to ban all electronic signs until it could formulate a new ordinance. "To not allow someone to have the use of electronic signs is really living in the dark ages as far as how retail works now," says Holly Carlson, the car dealership's general manager. Don Reed of Barlo Signs in Hudson, which has also helped with the legal expenses, says switching to an electronic sign from a sign whose letters must be switched manually has been proven to boost business by as much as 25 percent. ISA spokesperson David Hickey says the association got involved because the case could set a regional and even national precedent regarding electronic sign regulation. (Web Link)

So now my question is, was there equal help from them to assist stopping the IMERC ban on neon in Vermont? Why was that news not on their website?


You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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...So now my question is, was there equal help from them to assist stopping the IMERC ban on neon in Vermont? Why was that news not on their website?

You are joking, right? You know what I like to say: Follow the money! Losing neon in VT is 'no big deal' in the big scheme of things. But losing ALL electric signs WOULD be a big deal for the sign industry as a whole - even for the LED clan!

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I have been trying to keep up with all that is being posted about this and keep seeing the question of "where were the sign associations?" That is a fair question and I tend to agree with the response that they are probably following the money, LED money. However one thing that I have not read is, where were the Vermont Neon Sign Companies during all this? I havent seen a thing about them getting involved in the fight. Perhaps it is just something that I have missed.

I think that it is a given that we are to have more regulations provided by those suit wearing panzies that have only gotten their hands dirty because they fell down from drinking to many fuzzy navels while laughing about how the working man doesnt know shit because their folks werent rich enough to provide a 'gimme' seat in Harvard (dont know if you could tell, but I am not a big fan of politicians and more so professional politicians). However I was listening to talk radio the other day and they had two scientists from different professions that both claimed that the global warming being caused by humans is bull. One even went so far as to claim that the bull was made up by certain types of business. Basically the just of it all is that global warming is a natural thing, as natural as a ball rolling down hill. Global warming really has nothing to do with humans. I believe this. If you look back at history the major changes that has happened to the earth are due to naturally caused global warming types of occurences.

But we have politicians, tree huggers, business's and lobbyists that need to have something to do I guess.

I will try to find an article or something talking about this that might make more sense than my rambling.


TEastin

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I have a tendency to agree with you on the global warming scam... err, problem... err, ASSumed problem. It has been scientifically known for centuries that the Earth goes through cycles. If I remember correctly, the last "warming" cycle was about 1500 years ago (no, I'm not that old - just from what I have heard and read). Where was all the pollution causing things back then? There wasn't any... And what will the enviro-wackos do when the next ice age comes along? "Ooops, we went to far backing off the global warming thing. We better start making smog again!"

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...snip...

I will try to find an article or something talking about this that might make more sense than my rambling.

Here is one small example. Sorry the quality is poor. It was sent to me in this format.

post-41-1172080397.jpg

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I have a tendency to agree with you on the global warming scam... err, problem... err, ASSumed problem. It has been scientifically known for centuries that the Earth goes through cycles. If I remember correctly, the last "warming" cycle was about 1500 years ago (no, I'm not that old - just from what I have heard and read). Where was all the pollution causing things back then? There wasn't any... And what will the enviro-wackos do when the next ice age comes along? "Ooops, we went to far backing off the global warming thing. We better start making smog again!"

You may not be that old but I know someone who is...... :laughing1:


TEastin

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You may not be that old but I know someone who is...... :laughing1:

joemomma! :laughing1:

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joemomma! :laughing1:

Speak up, will ya, young fella.


joemomma

I do it in the transformer box.

1946-2008

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:lol_hitting:

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

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